mormon prophet on Trinity

[GrammasRose]

supposedly those things were also taken back to the Lord and wouldn’t have been available for the revising of the Lord’s new book. As if one from the Lord would need revision

 

[cestusdei]

zerinus,

How about that 10th century copy of the book of mormon? We can compare it to the many many manuscripts we have of the Bible.

 

[zerinus]

We believe that God preserved the Church from critical error. This applies to Tradition, as well as the Sacred Scriptures that emanate from Sacred Tradition. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t the occasional inconsequential mistake here and there, but there is nothing that affects the core of what God intends to reveal to man about Himself, or His plan for man’s ultimate redemption.

We believe that too. We don’t think that the Bible contains errors so serious that believing them could jeopardize our salvation. On the contrary, we believe that it contains the “fullness of the gospel” just as the Book of Mormon does. This is what the Lord has said about the Bible in modern LDS scripture:

Section 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

The BoM also comes via human transcription, to say nothing of translation. As Zerinus notes, JS himself has “corrected” his own translation, even though he used a divinely-provided device to perform said translation, a device one assumes would insure a perfect translation, one without error. I assume the Mormons believe that God has preserved the BoM from critical error, in the same way that Catholics believe that God preserves the Catholic Church and its Scriptures from critical error.

Absolutely. The corrections that have been made in the Book of Mormon since its first publication have all been made to fix minor typographical errors, or correct or modernize spelling mistakes, or improve its punctuation and so forth. None of them alter the fundamental doctrines of the book in any way.

Zerinus

 

[zerinus]

I was under the impression that Joseph Smith used the urim and thummim, provided along with the plates, to perform the translation. After all, he had no linguistic abilities, did he? Certainly, if one is to accept the Mormon claim that Joseph was a rube, he had no knowledge of the arcane language supposedly writ on the plates. He needed the divinely-provided urim and thummim. Therefore, it wasn’t his translation, but rather that of the Lord. So, what would give him the right to go back and make “corrections?”

Yes, but that does not mean that his own intellect was dormant during the translation process. He was not turned into a zombie while translating the book. He intellectually participated in that process. See D&C 9:7-9 about how the book was translated by the gift and the power of God.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

LDS.com certainly gives the impression the Bible IS “less than” the latter-day scriptures, here are the key passages:
**Joseph Smith taught that “many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled.”
**Do you believe the BoM, D&C or PGP is missing “many important points” regarding salvation? I highly doubt it. In fact, I dont know any organization that puts such high faith in a book they also believe to be corrupted.
The Church reveres and respects the Bible, but recognizes that it is not a complete nor entirely accurate record,
Again, would the LDS say the same thing about the other LDS scriptures? No, because you cant put faith in something corrupted and incomplete.

By definition the other LDS scriptures must be superior to the Bible else your saying they are just as inaccurate and incomplete. Hold a accurate and complete record along side an incomplete and corrupted record and tell me how many would knowingly put their faith in the corrupt record.

You are wasting your time. This only questions the method of its transmission, not the book itself as a divinely inspired book of scripture and the word of God.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

zerinus,

How about that 10th century copy of the book of mormon? We can compare it to the many many manuscripts we have of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus

What sort of time frame does the BoM cover? My vague understanding is that it covers a period of many centuries. If so, then it assuredly consists, if not of written records, oral records, passed down from generation to generation. Oral transmission is just as subject, if not more so, to the type of error you’re talking about, as written.

 

[Tmaque]

The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus

If there were no “scribal errors” in the 1830 Book of Mormon then who made the errors in the 1830 Book of Mormon? I can think of 4 big changes right off the bat.

Joseph F. Smith stated that: “The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stone would remain there.”

So, there were no scribal errors because the word(s) on the Urim & Thummim would remain until it had been written correctly. This means that God made the wrong words appear. Or, it means that the changes made to the 1830 Book of Mormon were not of God. What a mess!

 

[Allweather]

Yes, but that does not mean that his own intellect was dormant during the translation process. He was not turned into a zombie while translating the book. He intellectually participated in that process. See D&C 9:7-9 about how the book was translated by the gift and the power of God.

zerinus

OK, I see that the BITB is at work in this translation process. So, what role do the urim and thummim play? How did these devices work in coordiation with the intellectual and BITB functions?

Section 8 seems to have a clearer description of the actual translation gift given to Oliver Cowdery, which for some reason was withdrawn. Why was it withdrawn? The beginning of Section 9 says, “Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun…”

I don’t understand what that means.

 

[GrammasRose]

What sort of time frame does the BoM cover? My vague understanding is that it covers a period of many centuries. If so, then it assuredly consists, if not of written records, oral records, passed down from generation to generation. Oral transmission is just as subject, if not more so, to the type of error you’re talking about, as written.

there are no records that are in existance. the gold plates were supposedly returned to God.

 

[GrammasRose]

If there were no “scribal errors” in the 1830 Book of Mormon then who made the errors in the 1830 Book of Mormon? I can think of 4 big changes right off the bat.

Joseph F. Smith stated that: “The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stone would remain there.”

So, there were no scribal errors because the word(s) on the Urim & Thummim would remain until it had been written correctly. This means that God made the wrong words appear. Or, it means that the changes made to the 1830 Book of Mormon were not of God. What a mess!

that is the claim yet there was errors corrected in the thousands within the book of mormon since.

 

[Allweather]

there are no records that are in existance. the gold plates were supposedly returned to God.

Right, but what I am thinking is that the stories related in the BoM cover a period of many centuries. Certainly the events related in the BoM take place over the course of many generations of human lifetimes. Here is what Zerinus said about the BoM just a little while ago:

*""The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus""*

I can understand that no changes took place during the centuries the plates supposedly were buried. But, the writings on the plates themselves were transmitted, I assume both orally and in writing, by men, unto men, unto men. Therefore, they surely contain the same sorts of errors in transmission that the Mormons claim affect the Holy Bible.

I must be missing something here.

 

[GrammasRose]

Right, but what I am thinking is that the stories related in the BoM cover a period of many centuries. Certainly the events related in the BoM take place over the course of many generations of human lifetimes. Here is what Zerinus said about the BoM just a little while ago:

*""The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus""*

I can understand that no changes took place during the centuries the plates supposedly were buried. But, the writings on the plates themselves were transmitted, I assume both orally and in writing, by men, unto men, unto men. Therefore, they surely contain the same sorts of errors in transmission that the Mormons claim affect the Holy Bible.

I must be missing something here.

It doesn’t make sense. Mormons believe there were not a lot of plates and most was more or less oral as it had to be. It wasn’t like a bible you had in each home. There had to be translation errors or things that were conveyed wrong at sometime.

 

[zerinus]

What sort of time frame does the BoM cover? My vague understanding is that it covers a period of many centuries.

The Book of Mormon covers a period of approximately 1,000 year, from 600BC to 400AD—excluding the book of Ether, which is an account of a different group of people altogether.

If so, then it assuredly consists, if not of written records, oral records, passed down from generation to generation. Oral transmission is just as subject, if not more so, to the type of error you’re talking about, as written.

If you had read the Book of Mormon you would know the answer to that question! The Nephite history was not based on any oral transmission. It was compiled from original records written and kept and preserved and handed down by the kings and rulers of the people by the commandment of the Lord. The Book of Mormon itself talks a lot about the how those records were kept and preserved in the archives of the kings and rulers of the people until they fell into the hands on Mormon, who was their last righteous ruler and prophet, who used them to compile the abridgement that is now known as the Book of Mormon.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

If there were no “scribal errors” in the 1830 Book of Mormon then who made the errors in the 1830 Book of Mormon? I can think of 4 big changes right off the bat.

I told you before; they are not that many, and they are not theologically very significant, and they are not necessarily “errors” either. Joseph Smith, like any translator, was entitled to improve upon his own translation.

Joseph F. Smith stated that: “The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stone would remain there.”

I am not sure how accurate that statement is. It may be partially correct but not entirely. I had given a reference to the D&C explaining how the Book of Mormon was translated.

So, there were no scribal errors because the word(s) on the Urim & Thummim would remain until it had been written correctly. This means that God made the wrong words appear. Or, it means that the changes made to the 1830 Book of Mormon were not of God. What a mess!

There was plenty of room for scribal errors. After the original manuscript was written, it was then copied by hand by Oliver Cowdery for submission to the printer. The first manuscript was considered to be too valuable to be given to the printer in case of loss. That was one possible source of scribal errors. Then the pages were manually typeset by the printer, which opens the way for more typographical errors. Everybody knows that when printers typeset books in the old fashioned way, they often made mistakes. The Book of Mormon contained many such errors that were later corrected.

zerinus

 

[cestusdei]

The Book of Mormon was compiled from original sources by the Nephite prophet Mormon (and later by his son Moroni), and transcribed on gold plates and hidden in the earth to come forth in the latter days, to be translated by the gift and power of God. It did not pass through the hands of multiple scribes and copyists, and therefore does not contain the inevitable scribal errors that unavoidably enter into ancient manuscripts that have survived during that process. That is what makes it so good.

zerinus

Only if you believe it actually existed. There is not one iota of evidence for that. The “witnesses” were all Smith family or crony’s. Smith did have help in writing it. Original copies do not look like the one you use, so there has been redaction. For example the “white and delightsome” phrase has been changed. You can’t blame typsetters. Wouldn’t that be the equivalent of scribal errors? I am so glad you are here to show us the absurdity of mormonism, thanks. The whole book of mormon is one complete error.

 

[Allweather]

The Nephite history was not based on any oral transmission. It was compiled from original records written and kept and preserved and handed down by the kings and rulers of the people by the commandment of the Lord. The Book of Mormon itself talks a lot about the how those records were kept and preserved in the archives of the kings and rulers of the people until they fell into the hands on Mormon, who was their last righteous ruler and prophet, who used them to compile the abridgement that is now known as the Book of Mormon.

zerinus

OK, but whether oral or written, these records were subject to human error, according to the same presumptions Mormons are making about the Bible. How could it be that the BoM is any less subject to the errors of human transcription, to say nothing of translation, than the Bible?

How do Mormons know that “plain and precious” parts of the BoM weren’t removed by unknown hands?

 

[GrammasRose]

I told you before; they are not that many, and they are not theologically very significant, and they are not necessarily “errors” either. Joseph Smith, like any translator, was entitled to improve upon his own translation.

I am not sure how accurate that statement is. It may be partially correct but not entirely. I had given a reference to the D&C explaining how the Book of Mormon was translated.

There was plenty of room for scribal errors. After the original manuscript was written, it was then copied by hand by Oliver Cowdery for submission to the printer. The first manuscript was considered to be too valuable to be given to the printer in case of loss. That was one possible source of scribal errors. Then the pages were manually typeset by the printer, which opens the way for more typographical errors. Everybody knows that when printers typeset books in the old fashioned way, they often made mistakes. The Book of Mormon contained many such errors that were later corrected.

zerinus

Why do you pretend those thousands of errors do not exist?

 

[Allweather]

I told you before; they are not that many, and they are not theologically very significant, and they are not necessarily “errors” either. Joseph Smith, like any translator, was entitled to improve upon his own translation.

According to the D&C reference you gave earlier, the BITB, and its counterpart, the stupor of mind, would, it seems obvious, not permit there to be any errors during the translation process. Moreover, God supposedly was carrying on a direct conversation with Joseph Smith over a period of many years, giving him detailed instructions in words that were written down, on a wide variety of subjects. Anyone in so direct communication with Almighty God couldn’t possibly be subject to errors in translation. Also, since the plates were taken back into heaven, how could Joseph Smith be sure he was making valid corrections to the manuscript later on? Was he relying on memory?

There was plenty of room for scribal errors. After the original manuscript was written, it was then copied by hand by Oliver Cowdery for submission to the printer. The first manuscript was considered to be too valuable to be given to the printer in case of loss. That was one possible source of scribal errors. Then the pages were manually typeset by the printer, which opens the way for more typographical errors. Everybody knows that when printers typeset books in the old fashioned way, they often made mistakes. The Book of Mormon contained many such errors that were later corrected.

zerinus

Does the original manuscript still exist?

Is there anywhere a complete catalog of all the “errors” that came to be between the original manuscript and the first published and printed edition?

Also, to repeat my earlier question, since, according to the D&C reference you cited the BITB is the key to accuracy in translation, and was a gift given not only to Joseph Smith, but to others, such as Cowdery, how does the urim and thummin fit into this process? I was under the impression that this device(s) were given in the container with the plates in order to facilitate the translation, presumably to allow Smith to read the ancient and arcane language on the plates. Since they were divinely provided for that purpose, why would there need to be any intellectual involvement by Smith or Cowdery, or anyone else, at all?

BTW thanks for all this information. I am learning a lot.

 

[zerinus]

OK, I see that the BITB is at work in this translation process. So, what role do the urim and thummim play? How did these devices work in coordiation with the intellectual and BITB functions?

It has never been made very clear in the history of the Church how the Urim and the Thummim was used to translate the Book of Mormon. It was a very sacred instrument, and Joseph Smith did not freely talk about it. There is a lot hearsay, but not much reliable data.

Section 8 seems to have a clearer description of the actual translation gift given to Oliver Cowdery, which for some reason was withdrawn. Why was it withdrawn?

I don’t agree that it was withdrawn—at least not at that time. Oliver Cowdery later on left the Church; at which time all of his gifts were withdrawn. But not at the time that we are talking about now.

The beginning of Section 9 says, “Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun…”

I don’t understand what that means.

Verses 7-11 answers that question. In verse 11 it states: “Behold, it was expedient when you commenced; but you feared, and the time is past, and it is not expedient now”. Oliver Cowdery wanted to be able to translate like Joseph Smith. God, who is always kind and merciful and gracious towards mankind, at first allowed him to do it—It reminds me of how Peter wanted to walk on the water like Jesus, and the Lord allowed him to, but then he failed because his faith was not up to the task—so Oliver Cowdery likewise wanted to do the same; but then he encountered problems, and he “feared,” because he was not sufficiently prepared for the task. Joseph Smith had undergone several years of angelic ministration and tutoring to prepare him not only for the translation of the Book of Mormon, but also for the establishment of the Church of God through him. Oliver Cowdery had not undergone that kind of tutoring and preparation, which explains his failure at the attempt. But the gift of translation was not withdrawn from him. God told him that the most important thing for him to do at that time was to write for Joseph Smith and finish the Book of Mormon. But once that task was accomplished, then God had other ancient records that He would give him the power to translate. But Oliver Cowdery did not remain faithful and left the Church, and eventually lost those privileges.

zerinus