Mormon prophet

[Stavros]

Today this discussion made me think of one of my favorite Internet comics ever.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Please pardon me from going from A to Q, but this morning I was so cranky about this very thread that I stayed late at home to respond, ended up showing up just before the “Orare Fratres” to the 6:30a daily mass, did not receive eucharist because I was so cranky that I did not feel disposed to grace, and ended up in the confessional with Father discussing anger issues.

So if you will excuse me, I think I will leave the apologetics to those who are strong enough to answer questions without getting so worked up that they are late to Mass and end up having to spend 15 minutes on their knees with a priest in the confessional.

Thank you, and I will offer my rosary prayers today to the conversion of all sinners, especially those who have been deceived by the lies of the Mormon church. Sacred heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

 

[KathleenGee]

For such an earth shattering revelation, and saying we are all corrupt…why would he go socialize at a corrupt Methodist church afterwards??? I also read he was kicked out by them…so then he would have gone there to share his revelation???

It is one thing to disagree…but it is another to label Christianity and its different forms as corrupt or an abomination…yes, the 1830’s American unchurch Bible mindset. Was the KJV the one in use by the Restorationists? Like, no authentic bible until England’s KJV…1600 years later…

 

[Defender1]

Hi Defender, I’ve only been with the LDS for 1 yr but will give it a go.

I’m concerned you may be learning your LDS theology from cartoons rather than reliable sources. This is why what you posted doesn’t make any sense to you.

The LDS do not deny polygamy was taught by the church but it is not practiced now by the church.

Your story of God living on the planet SOIO is news to me as is any teaching that God the father lived on a specific planet. The LDS do teach we are all God’s spirit children and we were created by God before the Earth was created. Metaphorically, it may help one to envision everyone living on a planet but that is not official literal doctrine. LDS may use the term premortal spirit world, but it is not meant to define a physical planet.

The LDS do believe Christ and Satan were both created by God, and thus are spirit brothers. However, this was so long before the earth was created. The key difference between the plan of Jesus and of Satan was whether man would have free will. a couple links:

• How Satan became the devil
• The battle between Christ and Satan- Christ became our savior

Satan and the spirits that supported his plan were sent away from God and cast down from heaven. Since they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies, it would be impossible for them to represent any earthly race or skin color as you suggested. Also, there is no teaching that spirits had any race or color

There was a belief among most Christians of Joseph Smith’s era (and before) that blacks were cursed as the descendants of Cain. I expect many LDS shared this incorrect view broadly held by Protestants. Even Catholics were known to share this belief. I urge you to do some research on Christianity and slavery. Here is a link to get you started: Christian support of slavery: 5th century CE through abolition

None of this justifies racism expressed by any member of LDS or Christian denomination. I include only for educating you on context.

Thank you for your explanation . I got much of my references from EWTN Catholic radio but mind you they were speaking of the history of the Mormon church . What I provided in response was supposed to be what was taught by Joseph Smith himself . I was not sure whether or not some of that teaching was still taught today or condoned . I am aware however that there are Mormons or people who call themselves Mormon that practice plural marriage . Thank you for your response .

 

[RebeccaJ]

Stavos, you are wrong in most points

• The early church claimed revelation they were commanded to practice polygamy, hence it was taught
• You are completely wrong on Kolob (too many cartoons?). “Kolob” is the name for a star, not a planet. This star is used as a teaching metaphor in Abraham 3:3. to teach Abraham that there is a hierarchy in all things. There are many stars, and one star is “closest” to God. In a similar way, there are many intelligences, or moral agents, some greater than others. The greatest of these is God.
  scriptural

Kolob has never been taught as a metaphor! lol. Not to mention its source (the Book of Abraham) is just totally made up.

RE: Skin color…yes racism and bigotry is a sin that should be repented of…has the LDS church given a formal statement asking for forgiveness for its teachings prior to 1978. Because my dear deluded Tony, I was raised in Mormonism and remember 1978 very clearly. Prior to this, I most certainly was taught one’s race was determined by how valiant a person was in the pre-existence.

 

[TheExorcist]

RE: Skin color…yes racism and bigotry is a sin that should be repented of…has the LDS church given a formal statement asking for forgiveness for its teachings prior to 1978. Because my dear deluded Tony, I was raised in Mormonism and remember 1978 very clearly. Prior to this, I most certainly was taught one’s race was determined by how valiant a person was in the pre-existence.

I’ll bet old Brigham got a big surprise when he crossed over after death. No passwords, no hand shakes…and black folks!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ll bet old Brigham got a big surprise when he crossed over after death. No passwords, no hand shakes…and black folks!

…who weren’t there to serve him.

 

[zaffiroborant]

…who weren’t there to serve him.

:tiphat:

 

[lynnettejane]

Sorry Stavros that this thread upset you, God grant you peace.
Parker D, you are still deflecting and using conjecture in your replies. As I have said before, mormonism stands or falls with JS. There is plenty out there to show that he was a liar, cheat and charlatan, all a matter of record. There is absolutely no need to get into doctrinal arguments nor to quote chapter and verse, because JS was not a prophet, restored nothing, and mormonism falls like a house of cards because of that fact.
You pick one part of a post and focus on it deflecting from other areas mentioned that you obviously do not want to deal with, this is soooo mormon

 

[ParkerD]

The word “white” clearly refers to skin color in 2 Nephi 5:21 -

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding [sic] fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they repent of their iniquities.”

Reference: Book of Mormon published 1950

Jim,

The problem for one seeking to be offended by verses 21 and 22 is that they don’t understand the meaning shown in verse 20 for the word “cursing”, which has to do with being “cut off from the presence of the Lord”. (This is what the Lamanites of that time had as their “cursing”.)

Here is verse 20:

20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint;

The words “like unto a flint” have to do with why “they were cut off from his presence”, and it is because they had hardened their own hearts through choosing unbelief.

So any believer in Christ who chooses to be offended has chosen the stumbling block of a wrong meaning about a word, “cursing”.

It makes more sense to me for a person to choose not to be offended, particularly a believer in Christ with their whole heart and soul. (That would mean, if they believe with their whole heart, that they have a soft heart–a yielding, believing heart.)

 

[Tony888]

Kolob has never been taught as a metaphor! lol. Not to mention its source (the Book of Abraham) is just totally made up.

RE: Skin color…yes racism and bigotry is a sin that should be repented of…has the LDS church given a formal statement asking for forgiveness for its teachings prior to 1978. Because my dear deluded Tony, I was raised in Mormonism and remember 1978 very clearly. Prior to this, I most certainly was taught one’s race was determined by how valiant a person was in the pre-existence.

Rebecca,
Have you personally read the text or are you just repeating juicy anti-mormon junk you found on a web site?

Read the text (again) and tell me whether it is trying to teach astronomy or the order of things I recall it the text contrasting Kolob’s position as the star closest to God’s throne with how some intelligences are also closer to God. (teaching metaphor)

In any event, the text clearly states Kolob is a STAR and not a PLANET.

Again, try read the text with an open but questioning mind.

 

[Stephen168]

Rebecca,
Have you personally read the text or are you just repeating juicy anti-mormon junk you found on a web site?

Read the text (again) and tell me whether it is trying to teach astronomy or the order of things I recall it the text contrasting Kolob’s position as the star closest to God’s throne with how some intelligences are also closer to God. (teaching metaphor)

In any event, the text clearly states Kolob is a STAR and not a PLANET.

Again, try read the text with an open but questioning mind.

The Book of Abraham is a work of fiction

 

[KathleenGee]

Star or planet…or being boss of your own…

For 2,000 years the Holy Spirit has been at work with the communion of saints praying for us that we do not lose sight of the teachings Christ had given us…based on the witness of the Apostles…

There is no documented history of early Mormons or those kinds of Christians they consider uncorrupted.

There is plenty of history and archeology affirming the overwhelming belief and practice of the early Christians…whose roots we firmly identify as our own.

We have so much fullness of faith, we do not need another book outside of Sacred Scripture. The prophets and faithful of Scripture uphold the same standards and perspective of God in Christ as today. Our witness of faith should be sufficient for those who search for truth in Christ to find faith in Christianity and not in another religion.

 

[lax16]

Rebecca,
Have you personally read the text or are you just repeating juicy anti-mormon junk you found on a web site?

Read the text (again) and tell me whether it is trying to teach astronomy or the order of things I recall it the text contrasting Kolob’s position as the star closest to God’s throne with how some intelligences are also closer to God. (teaching metaphor)

In any event, the text clearly states Kolob is a STAR and not a PLANET.

Again, try read the text with an open but questioning mind.

Hi Tony - Some prominent LDS have referred to it as a planet. (bold mine)

And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
— Book of Abraham 3:2-3

Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God.
Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure 1

Note: planet and star are used interchangeably:
Enish-go-on-dosh a governing planet—the Sun.
Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure 5 Kolob… signifies the first great grand governing fixed star which is the farthest that ever has been discovered by the fathers which was discovered by Methusela and also by Abraham.

---

**Joseph Smith **- Mormon prophet
Book of Abraham translation working papers
Kirtland Egyptian Papers, Grammar p.34 In this passage will be found the germ of that system of the construction and movement of **planetary systems **that make up the universe, set forth in the teachings of Joseph Smith. Here it may be seen that there are many great stars—the “governing ones,” near together, and from among them rises one pre-eminent in greatness—Kolob—which governs all the rest that are of the same order as that to which our solar system belongs."

---

**B. H. Roberts - Mormon apostle **and LDS church historian
A New Witness for God, p. 447 Kolob… **the planet **nearest unto the habitation of the Eternal Father.

---

Brigham Young - Mormon prophetEnsign, November 1971 Thou longed, thou sighed and thou prayed to thy Father in heaven for the time to arrive when thou couldst come to this earth, which had fled and fallen from where it was first organised, near the **planet Kolob. **--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[lax16]

Lynnette Jane,

There was good reason for him to attend a Methodist Sunday school class, if they were reading and studying the Bible in such a class. Maybe he thought he could add to the conversation they were having about the Bible. But he would be “with people”, and he was a “people person”, although he was known to also be a meditative, contemplative kind of person in his youth also. So he had an introspective side, and a gregarious side of his personality. There is nothing wrong with that.

God did not tell him to stop studying the Bible, nor to stop enjoying the company of people around him, nor to think of everyone as a “bad person” because the true church was not on the earth.

It seems to me, and perhaps others, to be a wrong idea to take words that had a precise meaning and generalize a different, incorrectly derived meaning and especially to then take offense from the incorrect meaning so derived.

Hi Parker - this is an excerpt from a book on the subject:

This event is also mentioned in Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, University of Illinois Press, 1994, p.25.

Emma's uncle, Nathaniel Lewis, preached as a lay minister of the local Methodist Episcopal church. His congregation met in the homes of the members for Sunday services. On Wednesdays a regular circuit preacher visited Harmony. In the spring or summer of 1828 Joseph asked the circuit rider if his name could be included on the class roll of the church. Joseph "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner," and the minister obliged him.

When Emma's cousin, Joseph Lewis, discovered Joseph's name on the roll, he "thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer" as a member. He took the matter up with a friend, and the following Sunday, when Joseph and Emma arrived for church, the two men steered Joseph aside and into the family shop. "They told him plainly that such character as he . . . could not be a member of the church unless he broke off his sins by repentance, made public confession, renounced his fraudulent and hypocritical practices, and gave some evidence that he intended to reform and conduct himself somewhat nearer like a christian than he had done. They gave him his choice to go before the class, and publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Joseph refused to comply with the humiliating demands and withdrew from the class. His name, however, stayed on the roll for about six more months, either from oversight or because Emma's brother-in-law, Michael Morse, who taught the class, did not know of the confrontation. When Joseph did not seek full membership, Morse finally dropped his name.2"

I am pretty sure that you will claim this is anti-Mormon literature. However, it does bring up a good point.

Did Joseph Smith ever confess or ask forgiveness for any of his wrongdoings?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
Have you personally read the text or are you just repeating juicy anti-mormon junk you found on a web site?

Read the text (again) and tell me whether it is trying to teach astronomy or the order of things I recall it the text contrasting Kolob’s position as the star closest to God’s throne with how some intelligences are also closer to God. (teaching metaphor)

In any event, the text clearly states Kolob is a STAR and not a PLANET.

Again, try read the text with an open but questioning mind.

Tony888, are you inferring that I don’t know how to think for myself? I’m not the one who has been led into a trap.

Perhaps you are unaware that I was raised LDS, in a very active Mormon home, father was bishop, mom the RS pres., pioneer ancestors, etc. etc. So yes, I’ve read and studied the BoA. Kolob has always been taught as a physical locality that exists somewhere in the universe. Whether or not one believes Kolob is a star or planet has nothing to do with whether or not it is metaphorical.

I was taught in Mormon seminary that your god lived on a planet that is near a star named Kolob. This planet being a glass sphere that acted as a crystal ball, which is how your god is able to be all knowing.

So, if you think what I was taught was anti-Mormon, you can look up the Mormons who taught me and let them know…or just check your mormon scripture.

D&C 130

6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

8  The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

PS: The BofA has been proven to be a fraud.

 

[TheExorcist]

Tony888, are you inferring that I don’t know how to think for myself? I’m not the one who has been led into a trap.

Perhaps you are unaware that I was raised LDS, in a very active Mormon home, father was bishop, mom the RS pres., pioneer ancestors, etc. etc. So yes, I’ve read and studied the BoA. Kolob has always been taught as a physical locality that exists somewhere in the universe. Whether or not one believes Kolob is a star or planet has nothing to do with whether or not it is metaphorical.

I was taught in Mormon seminary that your god lived on a planet that is near a star named Kolob. This planet being a glass sphere that acted as a crystal ball, which is how your god is able to be all knowing.

So, if you think what I was taught was anti-Mormon, you can look up the Mormons who taught me and let them know…or just check your mormon scripture.

D&C 130

6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

8  The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.

PS: The BofA has been proven to be a fraud.

Wow that sounds kinda kooky when you actually come out and write it all out

 

[RebeccaJ]

Wow that sounds kinda kooky when you actually come out and write it all out

JS used scrying stones his entire life, to dig for treasure, to “translate” the BoM…he taught that the Urim and Thummim described in the OT were scrying stones. The mormon god lives on a gigantic scrying stone…makes perfect sense in the context of whose mind this idea came out of.

 

[TheExorcist]

JS used scrying stones his entire life, to dig for treasure, to “translate” the BoM…he taught that the Urim and Thummim described in the OT were scrying stones. The mormon god lives on a gigantic scrying stone…makes perfect sense in the context of whose mind this idea came out of.

More reason to keep trying to get O U T

:bigyikes:

 

[RebeccaJ]

More reason to keep trying to get O U T

:bigyikes:

I agree!

BTW, this planet is going to be turned into a giant scrying stone too…that is what will make it “celestial”. The Mormon gods like ParkerD are going to live on the crystal planet with the ability to see everything going on in the other “kingdoms”. They’ll be watching you (JSYK).

I really do love this stuff.

 

[TheExorcist]

I agree!

BTW, this planet is going to be turned into a giant scrying stone too…that is what will make it “celestial”. The Mormon gods like ParkerD are going to live on the crystal planet with the ability to see everything going on in the other “kingdoms”. They’ll be watching you (JSYK).

I really do love this stuff.

Im waiting for the day when these things are in a new Gospel Principles manual!



Of course they have moved more toward sanitization rather than expansion of and from these doctrines.