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Urim…Thummim…read about those as well.

Does Tony888 know that the Mormons are actively taking down links that expose all their past beliefs???

Tony, keep you in prayer…didn’t mean to insult you…these beliefs and aspirations for the next life don’t reflect on being with our Loving Savior Jesus Christ in the next life…
 
Does Tony888 know that the Mormons are actively taking down links that expose all their past beliefs???.
I guess he does now. How about disappearing talks by church leaders that don’t reflect well on current beliefs and practices?

:hmmm:
 
The Book of Abraham is a work of fiction
Since you are deflecting, I must assume you agree my point is valid - the LDS do not teach God lives on a planet called Kolob, and that the LDS do teach Kolob is the name of a star in a teaching metaphor in the Book of Abraham

I have no problems with you beliving our doctirne is fiction
My problem is with people who intentionally lie about LDS doctrine.
 
Tony888, are you inferring that I don’t know how to think for myself? I’m not the one who has been led into a trap.

Perhaps you are unaware that I was raised LDS, in a very active Mormon home, father was bishop, mom the RS pres., pioneer ancestors, etc. etc. So yes, I’ve read and studied the BoA. Kolob has always been taught as a physical locality that exists somewhere in the universe. Whether or not one believes Kolob is a star or planet has nothing to do with whether or not it is metaphorical.

I was taught in Mormon seminary that your god lived on a planet that is near a star named Kolob. This planet being a glass sphere that acted as a crystal ball, which is how your god is able to be all knowing.

So, if you think what I was taught was anti-Mormon, you can look up the Mormons who taught me and let them know…or just check your mormon scripture.

D&C 130

6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; 7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
Code:
8  The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
PS: The BofA has been proven to be a fraud.
Rebecca,
Let me summarize - you now claim you were taught God physically lived on a planet called Urim and Thummin near the star called Kolob?

Please link to the teaching manual that taught what you claim, old versions are still online.

D&C 130 also isn’t an astronomy lesson. It’s clearly meant to help one imagine God’s throne or heaven (not describe a literal planet that doesn’t conform to laws of physics)

Don’t you think it’s inappropriate to stitch together two verses out of context to create literal LDS doctrine that God lives in this specific physical location? Even if the BoA is a fraud in your eyes, that is no excuse for you to lie about the context of your quotes.

You should be ashamed of such tactics
 
Rebecca,
Let me summarize - you now claim you were taught God physically lived on a planet called Urim and Thummin near the star called Kolob?

Please link to the teaching manual that taught what you claim, old versions are still online.

D&C 130 also isn’t an astronomy lesson. It’s clearly meant to help one imagine God’s throne or heaven (not describe a literal planet that doesn’t conform to laws of physics)

Don’t you think it’s inappropriate to stitch together two verses out of context to create literal LDS doctrine that God lives in this specific physical location? Even if the BoA is a fraud in your eyes, that is no excuse for you to lie about the context of your quotes.

You should be ashamed of such tactics
Tony, don’t be obtuse and reword what your scriptures say. It is a bad habit, and dishonest. I hope you didn’t pick it up from the online Mormon apologetics you’ve been reading. Your god lives on a crystal planet that is indeed like a giant urim and thummim. What that planet is called? Who knows. Why don’t you ask your god?

I know what I was taught, and I know what line of bull you are being fed. Don’t try to feed it to me because I know better.
 
the LDS do not teach God lives on a planet called Kolob
That is correct. However it has been stated that Kolob is the heavenly body nearest to the throne or residence of God and “was discovered by Methuselah and Abraham by looking through the Urim and Thummim”
and that the LDS do teach Kolob is the name of a star in a teaching metaphor in the Book of Abraham
The Church teaches no such thing. Any metaphorical interpretations of Kolob have been outside commentators, some LDS some not, trying to explain where Kolob fits into the plan
 
That is correct. However it has been stated that Kolob is the heavenly body nearest to the throne or residence of God and “was discovered by Methuselah and Abraham by looking through the Urim and Thummim”

The Church teaches no such thing. Any metaphorical interpretations of Kolob have been outside commentators, some LDS some not, trying to explain where Kolob fits into the plan
Exorcist,
someone else just quoted “Urim and Thummim” as the physical name of God’s throne planet. Are you right or is she?

Have you read the Abraham text on Kolob? Only someone with a fundamentalist mindest could take it as a literal guide to the Astronomy of God.
 
Tony, don’t be obtuse and reword what your scriptures say. It is a bad habit, and dishonest. I hope you didn’t pick it up from the online Mormon apologetics you’ve been reading. Your god lives on a crystal planet that is indeed like a giant urim and thummim. What that planet is called? Who knows. Why don’t you ask your god?

I know what I was taught, and I know what line of bull you are being fed. Don’t try to feed it to me because I know better.
Rebecca, I think you adopt a fundamentalist (literal) attitude to LDS teachings because it suits your argument.

God frequently teaches through metaphore/allegory and any literal references to geography (or astronomy) are incidental to the main intent of the text.

I think believing God lives next to Kolob is as bright as believing in talking donkeys or that the earth is literally 6,000 years old.
 
Exorcist,
someone else just quoted “Urim and Thummim” as the physical name of God’s throne planet. Are you right or is she?.
Read the definition yourself:

Urim and Thummim
Urim and Thummim. Heb. term that means Lights and Perfections. An instrument prepared of God to assist man in obtaining revelation from the Lord and in translating languages. See Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Num. 27:21; Deut. 33:8; 1 Sam. 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65; JS—H 1:35.

Using a Urim and Thummim is the special prerogative of a seer, and it would seem reasonable that such instruments were used from the time of Adam. However, the earliest mention is in connection with the brother of Jared (Ether 3:21–28). Abraham used a Urim and Thummim (Abr. 3:1–4), as did Aaron and the priests of Israel, and also the prophets among the Nephites (Omni 1:20–21; Mosiah 8:13–19; 21:26–28; 28:11–20; Ether 4:1–7). There is more than one Urim and Thummim, but we are informed that Joseph Smith had the one used by the brother of Jared (Ether 3:22–28; D&C 10:1; 17:1). (See Seer.) A partial description is given in JS—H 1:35. Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations.

This earth in its celestial condition will be a Urim and Thummim, and many within that kingdom will have an additional Urim and Thummim (D&C 130:6–11). [LDS Bible Dictionary]
Have you read the Abraham text on Kolob? Only someone with a fundamentalist mindest could take it as a literal guide to the Astronomy of God.
Many, many more times than you I suspect. And I believed it LITERALLY as it was taught to me by the missionaries that gave me the discussions as well as many friends who had decades of experience reading and pondering these things. Give me a CLEAR citation of where an LDS church leader has stated that Kolob is a metaphor.
 
Rebecca, I think you adopt a fundamentalist (literal) attitude to LDS teachings because it suits your argument.

God frequently teaches through metaphore/allegory and any literal references to geography (or astronomy) are incidental to the main intent of the text.

I think believing God lives next to Kolob is as bright as believing in talking donkeys or that the earth is literally 6,000 years old.
You are reinventing Mormonism, which, isn’t an unusual thing to do. Kolob has never been taught by the Mormon Church as metaphorical.

Here’s an Institute manual.

I have to agree with you, believing the BoA is not such a bright thing.

Oh, and this is a gem:

lds.org/new-era/print/1971/04/people-on-other-worlds?lang=eng&clang=eng

It should appeal to your anti-Catholic leanings.
 
I think believing God lives next to Kolob is as bright as believing in talking donkeys or that the earth is literally 6,000 years old.
Are you suggesting that BY wasn’t very bright?

Ensign » 1971 » November

Proclamation:
For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah
Brigham Young

Brigham Young, “Proclamation: For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah,” Ensign, Nov 1971, 40

I, Brigham Young, Governor of the Territory aforesaid, in response to the time-honoured custom of our fathers at Plymouth Rock, by the Governors of the several States and Territories, and with a heart filled with humiliation, and gratitude to the Fountain of all good, for His multiplied munificence to His children, have felt desirous to, and Do Proclaim Thursday, the First Day of January, Eighteen Hundred and Fifty-Two a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the citizens of this our peaceful Territory; in honour of the God of Abraham, who has preserved His children amid all the vicissitudes they have been called to pass; for His tender mercies in preserving the nation undivided in which we live; for causing the Gospel of His kingdom to spread and take root upon the earth, beyond the power of men and demons to destroy; and that He has promised a day of universal joy and rejoicing to all the inhabitants who shall remain when the earth shall have been purified by fire and rest in peace.

And I recommend to all the good citizens of Utah, that they abstain from everything that is calculated to mar or grieve the Spirit of their heavenly Father on that day; that they rise early in the morning of the first day of the new year, and wash their bodies with pure water; that all men attend to their flocks and herds with carefulness; and see that no creature in their charge is hungry, thirsty, or cold; while the women are preparing the best of food for their households, and their children ready to receive it in cleanliness and with cheerfulness; then let the head of each family, with his family, bow down upon his knees before the God of Israel, and acknowledging all his sins and the sins of his household, call upon the Father, in the name of Jesus, for every blessing that he desires for himself, his kindred, the Israel of God, the universe of man; praying with full purpose of heart and united faith, that the union of the United States may be preserved inviolate against all the devices of wicked men, until truth shall reign triumphant, and the glory of Jehovah shall fill the earth; then in the name of Jesus, ask the Father to bless your food; and when you have filled the plates of your household, partake with them, with rejoicing and thanksgiving; and if you feel to make merry in your hearts, sing a song of thanksgiving, and lift up your hearts continually in praise and acknowledgment of the unbounded mercies you are momentarily receiving. I also request of all good and peaceful citizens, that they abstain from all evil thinking, speaking, and acting on that day; that no one be offended by his neighbour; that all jars and discords cease; that neighbourhood broils may be unknown; that tattlers and strife may not be remembered; that evil surmising may be forgotten; that all may learn the truth, and have no need of Priests to teach them; that all may be well, and have no need of doctors; that all may cease their quarrels, and starve the lawyers; that all may do as they would be done unto, so that perfect love which casteth out all fear may reign triumphant, and there shall be nothing to disturb the quiet of an infant in all the Territory of Utah; that there be no contention in the land; and that the same peace may extend its influence to the utmost bounds of the Everlasting Hills, and from thence to the habitation of every man and beast, to the ends of the earth, till the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and the babe shall lay his hand upon the cockatrice’s den, and find peace to its soul.

I further request, that when the day has been spent in doing good; in dealing your bread, your butter, your beef, your pork, your turkeys, your molasses, and the choicest of all the products of the vallies of the mountains, at your command, to the poor; that you end the day in the same order, and on the same principle that you commenced it; that you eat your supper with singleness of heart, as unto the Lord, after praise and thanksgiving, and songs of rejoicing; remembering that you cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit, and be preparing for celestial glory, while the meanest menial under your charge or control, is in want of the smallest thing which God has given you power to supply; remembering that that menial is dependent on you for its comforts, as you are dependent on your God for your constant support. Retire to your beds early, that you may be refreshed, and arise early again, and so continue until times and seasons are changed; or, finally, I say unto you, let the same process be continued from day to day, **until you arrive unto one of the days of Kolob (where day is 1000 of our years), the planet nearest unto the habitation of the Eternal Father. **
Done at the Executive Office, Great Salt Lake City; in witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal of the Territory to be affixed, this 19th day of December, a.d. 1851, and of the independence of the United States, the seventy-sixth.
 
Are you suggesting that BY wasn’t very bright?

Ensign » 1971 » November

Proclamation:
For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah
Brigham Young

Brigham Young, “Proclamation: For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah,” Ensign, Nov 1971, 40

I, Brigham Young, Governor of the Territory aforesaid, in response to the time-honoured custom of our fathers at Plymouth Rock, by the Governors of the several States and Territories, and with a heart filled with humiliation, and gratitude to the Fountain of all good, for His multiplied munificence to His children, have felt desirous to, and Do Proclaim Thursday, the First Day of January, Eighteen Hundred and Fifty-Two a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the citizens of this our peaceful Territory; in honour of the God of Abraham, who has preserved His children amid all the vicissitudes they have been called to pass; for His tender mercies in preserving the nation undivided in which we live; for causing the Gospel of His kingdom to spread and take root upon the earth, beyond the power of men and demons to destroy; and that He has promised a day of universal joy and rejoicing to all the inhabitants who shall remain when the earth shall have been purified by fire and rest in peace.

And I recommend to all the good citizens of Utah, that they abstain from everything that is calculated to mar or grieve the Spirit of their heavenly Father on that day; that they rise early in the morning of the first day of the new year, and wash their bodies with pure water; that all men attend to their flocks and herds with carefulness; and see that no creature in their charge is hungry, thirsty, or cold; while the women are preparing the best of food for their households, and their children ready to receive it in cleanliness and with cheerfulness; then let the head of each family, with his family, bow down upon his knees before the God of Israel, and acknowledging all his sins and the sins of his household, call upon the Father, in the name of Jesus, for every blessing that he desires for himself, his kindred, the Israel of God, the universe of man; praying with full purpose of heart and united faith, that the union of the United States may be preserved inviolate against all the devices of wicked men, until truth shall reign triumphant, and the glory of Jehovah shall fill the earth; then in the name of Jesus, ask the Father to bless your food; and when you have filled the plates of your household, partake with them, with rejoicing and thanksgiving; and if you feel to make merry in your hearts, sing a song of thanksgiving, and lift up your hearts continually in praise and acknowledgment of the unbounded mercies you are momentarily receiving. I also request of all good and peaceful citizens, that they abstain from all evil thinking, speaking, and acting on that day; that no one be offended by his neighbour; that all jars and discords cease; that neighbourhood broils may be unknown; that tattlers and strife may not be remembered; that evil surmising may be forgotten; that all may learn the truth, and have no need of Priests to teach them; that all may be well, and have no need of doctors; that all may cease their quarrels, and starve the lawyers; that all may do as they would be done unto, so that perfect love which casteth out all fear may reign triumphant, and there shall be nothing to disturb the quiet of an infant in all the Territory of Utah; that there be no contention in the land; and that the same peace may extend its influence to the utmost bounds of the Everlasting Hills, and from thence to the habitation of every man and beast, to the ends of the earth, till the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and the babe shall lay his hand upon the cockatrice’s den, and find peace to its soul.

I further request, that when the day has been spent in doing good; in dealing your bread, your butter, your beef, your pork, your turkeys, your molasses, and the choicest of all the products of the vallies of the mountains, at your command, to the poor; that you end the day in the same order, and on the same principle that you commenced it; that you eat your supper with singleness of heart, as unto the Lord, after praise and thanksgiving, and songs of rejoicing; remembering that you cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit, and be preparing for celestial glory, while the meanest menial under your charge or control, is in want of the smallest thing which God has given you power to supply; remembering that that menial is dependent on you for its comforts, as you are dependent on your God for your constant support. Retire to your beds early, that you may be refreshed, and arise early again, and so continue until times and seasons are changed; or, finally, I say unto you, let the same process be continued from day to day, **until you arrive unto one of the days of Kolob (where day is 1000 of our years), the planet nearest unto the habitation of the Eternal Father. **
Done at the Executive Office, Great Salt Lake City; in witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand, and caused the seal of the Territory to be affixed, this 19th day of December, a.d. 1851, and of the independence of the United States, the seventy-sixth.
:extrahappy: :tiphat:
 
I have never read anything in Christian tradition mentioning Kolob…
 
I think believing God lives next to Kolob is as bright as believing in talking donkeys or that the earth is literally 6,000 years old.
Really? What is so silly about Kolob? I’ve studied Mormonism for years, have a lot of LDS family, and have spent countless hours at chatrooms with Mormons. In all that time, I have never criticized Kolob as such. I do criticize the notion of a finite, material God who could be conceived as living near a particular star, as if space were able to contain him. But that argument comes from my Catholic presuppositions, which I must defend on other grounds, not by just slamming Mormonism because the name Kolob sounds funny. (Besides, to a Hebrew ear, it would not sound funny.)

From a Mormon perspective, I see no reason why you should view Kolob literalism as unintelligent. Surely W.W. Phelps, who penned “If You Could Hie to Kolob” was intelligent enough to edit a successful newspaper, and industrious in the way he stretched his means to get a lot more of the original D&C into print that would otherwise have been possible. Do you know of any prophets who have expressed views such as yours? I know that Kolob has been interpreted as a likeness of Christ (“first of creation” is like “firstborn”), but not in such a way as to deny its literal existence as well.

I happen to believe in the talking donkey, but the Bible does not teach that the earth is 6000 years old. (At most, it might teach that the economy of salvation has been in effect for that long.) In any case, one does not need to take a literalistic stance to believe that Kolob is literal. We do not discern what is and is not literal in the Bible by simply comparing the text to modern science and assuming that whatever doesn’t match is figurative. Rather, we determine such things by consideration of the texts themselves, paying attention to literary genre and authorial intent. That is why the majority of Catholic theologians from the medieval period did not take the seven-day creation literally. The text itself points to an allegorical reading because of narrative structural indicators, like the parallel between days 1-3 and 4-6, and the use of “seven” as a sign of covenant. Can you show, from the Book of Abraham some reason to suppose that the Kolob is figurative, or are you just asserting it arbitrarily? If you can show some reason, you opinion will gain my respect. If not, don’t insult other Mormons who believe in it literally.
 
Really? What is so silly about Kolob? I’ve studied Mormonism for years, have a lot of LDS family, and have spent countless hours at chatrooms with Mormons. In all that time, I have never criticized Kolob as such. I do criticize the notion of a finite, material God who could be conceived as living near a particular star, as if space were able to contain him. But that argument comes from my Catholic presuppositions, which I must defend on other grounds, not by just slamming Mormonism because the name Kolob sounds funny. (Besides, to a Hebrew ear, it would not sound funny.)

From a Mormon perspective, I see no reason why you should view Kolob literalism as unintelligent. Surely W.W. Phelps, who penned “If You Could Hie to Kolob” was intelligent enough to edit a successful newspaper, and industrious in the way he stretched his means to get a lot more of the original D&C into print that would otherwise have been possible. Do you know of any prophets who have expressed views such as yours? I know that Kolob has been interpreted as a likeness of Christ (“first of creation” is like “firstborn”), but not in such a way as to deny its literal existence as well.

I happen to believe in the talking donkey, but the Bible does not teach that the earth is 6000 years old. (At most, it might teach that the economy of salvation has been in effect for that long.) In any case, one does not need to take a literalistic stance to believe that Kolob is literal. We do not discern what is and is not literal in the Bible by simply comparing the text to modern science and assuming that whatever doesn’t match is figurative. Rather, we determine such things by consideration of the texts themselves, paying attention to literary genre and authorial intent. That is why the majority of Catholic theologians from the medieval period did not take the seven-day creation literally. The text itself points to an allegorical reading because of narrative structural indicators, like the parallel between days 1-3 and 4-6, and the use of “seven” as a sign of covenant. Can you show, from the Book of Abraham some reason to suppose that the Kolob is figurative, or are you just asserting it arbitrarily? If you can show some reason, you opinion will gain my respect. If not, don’t insult other Mormons who believe in it literally.
That was well put…appreciated
Rich
 
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