Mormon Prophets, Seers, and Revelators

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Mormonism is true.

Not true.

Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Lord and one of God’s greatest men.

I would say most of them are.

And they are living the truth.

P.S. I can type as fast as you can by the way.

You can deny the truth, but you can’t change reality.

Joseph Smith abused his power and had sex with other women, including minors and the wives of other men. He then claimed that this was God’s will.

Joseph Smith fabricated histories regarding nonexistent civilizations and fooled some gullible people with these elaborate stories.

You need not remain one of the fooled. The truth is available.

 

[Javl]

I am not too sure they have.

They have been, otherwise I would have ignored them and you.

You are asking me to prove a negative. That is false logic and invalid method of argumentation.

.

How can requesting simple proof be a negative and false logic?

That is a copout. You are now debating with me. If you have valid arguments bring it, or admit that you have none. I have more posts on CAF than you do. I have 5,894, you have 1,752! I am sure by looking through those you can find all the answers to your questions. Is that what you would like to do?

I agree that you posted more than I have and you have been on CAF longer than I have. What does that prove? Length of time is irrelevant to the subject matter. Many of the questions I have asked and the answers and comments that I have presented have been ignored. The reason(s) being not that they have been presented before, for I have reviewed many ( and I admit, not all ) of previous threads and posts. It is most likely that no answer is possible by the LDS.

I became involved in LDS threads primarily to learn and dialogue, but there were so many misconceptions on the part of the LDS that when I tried to correct and explain it turned not so much into a debate but into a confrontation. I do not like to argue, for arguments solve nothing. But when God’s truth is involved, I will fight tooth and nail for it to be understood correctly.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

You can deny the truth, but you can’t change reality.

Joseph Smith abused his power and had sex with other women, including minors and the wives of other men. He then claimed that this was God’s will.

Joseph Smith fabricated histories regarding nonexistent civilizations and fooled some gullible people with these elaborate stories.

You need not remain one of the fooled. The truth is available.

The Muslims have a proverb that says: “The waters of the sea does not become unclean by the mouth of a dog.” Your slandering of Joseph Smith does not hurt him, it hurts you. Jesus said:

Matthew 5:

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

You are playing your part well by slandering Joseph Smith; and he also played his part well by being a great prophet of the Lord, and a martyr to the cause of truth. Such of course have been from the beginning. Jude had this to say about them:

Jude 1:

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Even Jesus was called Beelzebub by His detractors; so why should Joseph Smith escape the tongue of slanderers and detractors? This is what Jesus had to say to those who called Him Beelzebub:

Matthew 12:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Joseph Smith was no different. He was in the same situation as they were, so it is to be expected that he should receive the same treatment as they did. To him the Lord said:

D&C 122:

1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

In another place the Lord said:

D&C 121:

10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.
11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;
12 And also that God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons, and to blind their minds, that they may not understand his marvelous workings; that he may prove them also and take them in their own craftiness;
. . .

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.
17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

So if you thought you were harming Joseph Smith by this kind of thing you are wrong. No prophet was ever harmed by the slander of wicked. Such folks have always only hurt themselves, not the prophets of God.

 

[zerinus]

I became involved in LDS threads primarily to learn and dialogue, but there were so many misconceptions on the part of the LDS that when I tried to correct and explain it turned not so much into a debate but into a confrontation. I do not like to argue, for arguments solve nothing. But when God’s truth is involved, I will fight tooth and nail for it to be understood correctly.

Sorry to disappoint, but you haven’t been doing a very good job of it so far.

 

[Javl]

Sorry to disappoint, but you haven’t been doing a very good job of it so far.

From the denials and responses I’ve received from you and others concerning LDS claims, I know that I, and others, have done an excellent job. There’s no denying it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

From the denials and responses I’ve received from you and others concerning LDS claims, I know that I, and others, have done an excellent job. There’s no denying it.

I wish that were true; but unfortunately it isn’t.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The Muslims have a proverb that says: “The waters of the sea does not become unclean by the mouth of a dog.” Your slandering of Joseph Smith does not hurt him, it hurts you. Jesus said:

Matthew 5:

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

You are playing your part well by slandering Joseph Smith; and he also played his part well by being a great prophet of the Lord, and a martyr to the cause of truth. Such of course have been from the beginning. Jude had this to say about them:

Jude 1:

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Even Jesus was called Beelzebub by His detractors; so why should Joseph Smith escape the tongue of slanderers and detractors? This is what Jesus had to say to those who called Him Beelzebub:

Matthew 12:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Joseph Smith was no different. He was in the same situation as they were, so it is to be expected that he should receive the same treatment as they did. To him the Lord said:

D&C 122:

1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

In another place the Lord said:

D&C 121:

10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.
11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;
12 And also that God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons, and to blind their minds, that they may not understand his marvelous workings; that he may prove them also and take them in their own craftiness;
. . .

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.
17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

So if you thought you were harming Joseph Smith by this kind of thing you are wrong. No prophet was ever harmed by the slander of wicked. Such folks have always only hurt themselves, not the prophets of God.

So you can’t defend Josephs Smith’s life or teachings.

I get it.

He was a fraud and he slandered Christianity.

Now his arrogant and beguiled followers go door to door to spread the news of the demise of Christianity.

 

[zerinus]

So you can’t defend Josephs Smith’s life or teachings.

I get it.

He was a fraud and he slandered Christianity.

Your answer was already given, and need not be given again.

Now his arrogant and beguiled followers go door to door to spread the news of the demise of Christianity.

His followers spread the news of the demise of apostate Christianity; and the Restoration of true Christianity in the latter days.

 

[Javl]

I wish that were true; but unfortunately it isn’t.

Only because you refuse to recognize the facts and truth when it stares you in the face.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SteveVH]

I was reading a thread over at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board (found here), and thought that I’d ask a similar question on this forum.

Members of the LDS church sustain 15 men (3 in the First Presidency and 12 in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) as “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators”. What does it mean to be a prophet, seer, and revelator (especially the last two titles), and if these 15 men are sustained as such, how do they act as prophets, seers, and revelators (are there specific tasks or functions specific to each title that they do)?

Also, do Mormons make a distinction between “inspiration” and “revelation”?

We should not forget that the requirements for the title of “Apostle” were spelled out in Scripture and the Mormon “apostles” do not satisfy those requirements. The following quote is from Acts 1:21,22 and concerns the replacement of Judas with Matthias.

“Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection”.

The so-called Mormon Apostles neither accompanied the other eleven as they walked with Jesus, nor were they witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. The office of “Apostle” therefore, by the definition given to us by the primary Apostle, Peter, limits the office of Apostle to the first century.

Something else to consider is that, had the office of “Apostle” been a requirement of continuing “priestly authority”, as Mormons claim, then why didn’t they choose another Apostle upon the death of each of the originals? It isn’t as though the Apostles all died at the same time. There was plenty of opportunity for them to do just that. Why was Matthias the last?

In fact, there were successors to the Apostles. They were called bishops. The Catholic Church can prove an unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter. No other Church on the planet can make that claim. Certainly not a church that came into existence 150 years ago.

 

[stormy99]

We disagree.

**You disagree…ok…that’s fine…I didn’t ask if you agreed, I asked for revelations from your prophets…and for you to tell us that the religious beliefs of the LDS have not changed…please be specific…the answer I disagree isn’t an answer just a comment.

stormy**

 

[SteveVH]

Quote:

Your responses have been noted. Can you prove my comments to be wrong or false?
For proof for my, and others, responses concerning LDS claims, please review the posts that have been made in all the LDS threads, the majority of which have been ignored.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

---

Javl, I would not want to have to go through “all the LDS threads” to find what you say is true. It seems more than unfair. I think a more effective way of handling this is to give your response and back it up, even it has been said before. I, too, get frustrated, but I admire the Mormon posters for jumping into the fray. They are in unfriendly territory to begin with. I think the least we can do is to do our best to respond with integrity, charity and patience. I have failed at this more times than I would like to admit, but it remains a goal for which we should all strive.

God bless.

 

[ParkerD]

We should not forget that the requirements for the title of “Apostle” were spelled out in Scripture and the Mormon “apostles” do not satisfy those requirements. The following quote is from Acts 1:21,22 and concerns the replacement of Judas with Matthias.

"Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection".

The so-called Mormon Apostles neither accompanied the other eleven as they walked with Jesus, nor were they witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. The office of “Apostle” therefore, by the definition given to us by the primary Apostle, Peter, limits the office of Apostle to the first century.

Something else to consider is that, had the office of “Apostle” been a requirement of continuing “priestly authority”, as Mormons claim, then why didn’t they choose another Apostle upon the death of each of the originals? It isn’t as though the Apostles all died at the same time. There was plenty of opportunity for them to do just that. Why was Matthias the last?

In fact, there were successors to the Apostles. They were called bishops. The Catholic Church can prove an unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter. No other Church on the planet can make that claim. Certainly not a church that came into existence 150 years ago.

SteveVH,
Paul was a called apostle, as was Barnabas.

John wasn’t inspired to have new apostles called to bear witness of the Savior’s resurrection in purity and power because the Holy Spirit gave him the vision that the church was to be taken into the wilderness, and that there would be a total loss of the true among the population as a whole on the earth–thus the need for “another angel” to bring the full and pure gospel back to “them that dwell on earth”.

 

[zerinus]

**You disagree…ok…that’s fine…I didn’t ask if you agreed, I asked for revelations from your prophets…and for you to tell us that the religious beliefs of the LDS have not changed…please be specific…the answer I disagree isn’t an answer just a comment.

stormy**

You are the one who is claiming it has changed. You need to provide evidence that it has, not me providing evidence that it hasn’t.

If you can’t provide evidence to back up your claims, why should anyone believe you?

 

[zerinus]

We should not forget that the requirements for the title of “Apostle” were spelled out in Scripture and the Mormon “apostles” do not satisfy those requirements. The following quote is from Acts 1:21,22 and concerns the replacement of Judas with Matthias.

"Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection".

The so-called Mormon Apostles neither accompanied the other eleven as they walked with Jesus, nor were they witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. The office of “Apostle” therefore, by the definition given to us by the primary Apostle, Peter, limits the office of Apostle to the first century.

Paul did not fulfill those conditions, but he was called to be an Apostle. That proves that fulfilling those conditions was not a requirement in every instance. That had been a special case, caused by the apostasy and fall of Judas, requiring the first ever such replacement or succession in the Twelve.

Something else to consider is that, had the office of “Apostle” been a requirement of continuing “priestly authority”, as Mormons claim, then why didn’t they choose another Apostle upon the death of each of the originals? It isn’t as though the Apostles all died at the same time. There was plenty of opportunity for them to do just that. Why was Matthias the last?

That is a valid question. I think there are several answers to that. Firstly, they did call at least one other Apostle, that being Paul, no doubt as a result of the death or martyrdom of another Apostle. So Matthias was not “the last”. Secondly, it probably isn’t true that the rest of the Apostles were easily available to ordain other Apostles. We know very little about the movements and actions of most of the Apostles. We know that Jesus had commissioned them to go to all the world and preach the gospel to “every creature,” which is what they apparently did, according to Christian tradition; and the same tradition also affirms that they were all eventually martyred in their assigned fields of labor. Thomas for example is believed to have gone to India, and was martyred there. So they couldn’t exactly meet together to appoint their successors. The condition of the world was not conducive to their succession at that time. Thirdly, we believe there are convincing indications that the Christian Church went into apostasy early on, which is another reason why the office of Twelve Apostles could no longer be maintained among them.

In fact, there were successors to the Apostles. They were called bishops. The Catholic Church can prove an unbroken line of succession all the way back to Peter.

I explained earlier why the bishops could not have been successors to the Apostles.

No other Church on the planet can make that claim. Certainly not a church that came into existence 150 years ago.

Well, believe it or not, Mormonism does!

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
Paul was a called apostle, as was Barnabas.

John wasn’t inspired to have new apostles called to bear witness of the Savior’s resurrection in purity and power because the Holy Spirit gave him the vision that the church was to be taken into the wilderness, and that there would be a total loss of the true among the population as a whole on the earth–thus the need for “another angel” to bring the full and pure gospel back to “them that dwell on earth”.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Javl, I would not want to have to go through “all the LDS threads” to find what you say is true. It seems more than unfair. I think a more effective way of handling this is to give your response and back it up, even it has been said before. I, too, get frustrated, but I admire the Mormon posters for jumping into the fray. They are in unfriendly territory to begin with. I think the least we can do is to do our best to respond with integrity, charity and patience. I have failed at this more times than I would like to admit, but it remains a goal for which we should all strive.

God bless.

Mormons are brainwashed dupes. There is nothing to admire in their robotic responses. They need to be shocked out of their zombie-like trance.

Bold in your face Truth is what they need, and it is not pretty.

Joseph Smith was a huxter and manipulator, not to mention an adulterous philanderer.

 

[Todd520]

Mormons are brainwashed dupes. There is nothing to admire in their robotic responses. They need to be shocked out of their zombie-like trance.

Bold in your face Truth is what they need, and it is not pretty.

Joseph Smith was a huxter and manipulator, not to mention an adulterous philanderer.

Chester, since you have resorted to broad brush insults and the belief that you must “shock” us out of our stupor, you’ve lost the ability to discuss the issues with charity. This is not constructive.

Try step back and think about it, take some deep breaths or pray the rosary until the Holy Spirit is again with you.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Chester, since you have resorted to broad brush insults and the belief that you must “shock” us out of our stupor, you’ve lost the ability to discuss the issues with charity. This is not constructive.

Try step back and think about it, take some deep breaths or pray the rosary until the Holy Spirit is again with you.

I think it is constructive.

I think you need to come to terms with Joseph Smith’s immoral lifestyle and teaching and ask yourself why Jesus would command such behavior.

Do you deny Joseph Smith’s immoral behavior and teaching? If not, why do you condone it?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Failure to post charitibly will result in posters being banned from particular threads.
Stay on topic and stop the bickering.