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amontoya
Guest
Why do mormons use leavened bread and water instead of unleavened bread and wine? Even the Book of Mormon commands the use of wine.
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ParkerD
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Hi, Amontoya,Why do mormons use leavened bread and water instead of unleavened bread and wine? Even the Book of Mormon commands the use of wine.
I sincerely hope you are doing well, and have much joy in your life.
In August of 1830, Joseph Smith received inspiration as follows (Doctrine and Covenants 27:2):
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
If water is extremely difficult to obtain or there is a question of its purity in certain places, then I have heard that they use some other drink that is known to be sanitarily kept safe from impurities. (I have never been to those places.) The type of bread is not made an issue of either.
Water and normal bread are used to not draw attention to a “ritual” atmosphere and instead have a simple atmosphere that focuses attention on the communion prayers and a mental and heartfelt devotion to Jesus Christ, remembering His suffering and His resurrection and seeking to have the Holy Spirit to be with each member.
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Zundrah
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What is the pearl of great price?
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amontoya
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Hello ParkerD,
Thank you, I am doing well, and hope you are to.
So, his later inspiration overrides the Book of Mormon?
So, would soda be acceptable?
Isn’t it still a ritual, since the same prayers are repeated, and the emblems are distributed in the same way each Sunday?
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vickimonica
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In the Book of Revelations it instructs us to not take from or ADD TOO the books of the holy bible. The doctrine & cov., & the pearl of great price are added to the bible, therefore - untruths…
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vickimonica
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By the way, I am a former mormon…
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TheosisM
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or more likely it was referring to not adding to or taking away from the Book of Revelation. I believe this is the correct interpretation.
I agree that the D&C and PoGP, and all other texts are not scripture, however using Rev 22:18-19 to prove this is not really a good argument.
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Zundrah
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Really, you were a mormon!? Crikey! Congratulations for coming on to CAF!
I use to be a protestant!
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ParkerD
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Amontoya,
The Book of Mormon was describing the history of the group of people at that time when it described the use of bread and wine. I think the use of water makes sense in the context of our modern world with the greater temptation in our world to misuse alcoholic beverages, although I think it was always grape juice for the original church and for the Nephite church.
Soda would be OK if that is the only “clean” drink available.
The less “ritualistic,” the better, in my view. The LDS ordinance is quite simple, but draws meaning from what the people do in their hearts during that quiet few minutes.
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genealogist
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I would assume that water is used instead wine because of the LDS prohibition against alcohol. I heard Ron Carlson speak against the LDS at a mission at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church and he made a big deal against the LDS not even using grape juice because they avoid the events on Calvary at all cost. I felt very uncomfortable at this talk as much of his critiques against the LDS could be used against Christians by Jews.
I also thought he was not very loving to the missionaries that attended. I left turned off to him.
I would think the unavailability of grape juice in 1830 was the real reason. Rev. Welch created grape juice to eliminate alcohol from his Communion services but the LDS did not have that option.
I also thought he was not very loving to the missionaries that attended. I left turned off to him.
I would think the unavailability of grape juice in 1830 was the real reason. Rev. Welch created grape juice to eliminate alcohol from his Communion services but the LDS did not have that option.
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ParkerD
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Genealogist,
Thank you for such an astute and kind comment. I and others appreciate it.
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Nowhere_Man
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From the introductory note to “The Pearl of Great Price”:What is the pearl of great price?
**The Pearl of Great Price is a selection of choice materials touching many significant aspects of the faith and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These items were produced by Joseph Smith Jr. and were published in the Church periodicals of his day.
**
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jpk1313
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Joe smith changed a buch of stuff in the bible and published it under the name of the joseph smith translation. though he never learned hebrew or greek so how he could do a translation is beyond me. So he did add and remove things from the bible (same with the jehova wittnesses and their new world translation) so it is not looking good for joe smith. Who knows maybe he is the false prophet spoken of in revelation.
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ParkerD
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Vicki Monica,
So I guess you’re saying that the catechisms and all the writings cited in the Catholic encyclopedia should be thrown out, and stick with the Bible itself? Good idea–an improvement as to where one such as yourself should spend your time studying.
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amontoya
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Do Mormons still use the prayer asking God to “bless and sanctify this **wine **to the souls of all those who drink of it?” Or do you ask God to bless “this water?”
If Jesus and the Apostles, and the Nephite church used grape juice, why does the LDS church not use grape juice today? There’s no temptation with grape juice.
Even though you say its less “ritualistic,” don’t you realize that its still a ritual (and that’s not a bad thing)? Do you think that people can’t draw deep spiritual meaning from rituals?
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CHRISTINE77
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Do LDS refer to the sacrament as the body and blood of Christ? If not, what are they actually observing?
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ParkerD
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Amontoya,
These are again very good questions. Thanks for being interested.
The prayer in remembrance of Christ’s precious blood was changed to insert the word “water” in place of the word “wine.” So here is the prayer on the water as it is done each Sunday today in LDS sacrament meetings:
“O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.”
Good point about grape juice. I liked the earlier comment by “Genealogist” on this thread. I think if one is aware of how Joseph Smith had the understanding that the liquid used needed to be pure but need not be red in color, although symbolizing the blood of Christ, then it makes sense that simply water would be best unless unavailable.
I think I did use the wrong word in “ritualistic”. What I was trying to convey is that the ordinance needs to draw attention to thinking about Christ, one’s personal relationship to Him, and the covenants one has made with Him, not on the particular outward “pageantry” (still not the right word) of the ordinance itself. That’s why I would think “the simpler the better” for how that ordinance is done and for the emblems of Christ’s body and blood that represent His sacrifice and atonement.
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ParkerD
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Christine,
If you read the post to Amontoya, and then note the following prayer on the bread, then you’ll note the distinction between referring to the sacrament as how you described (not quite true) versus that the bread and water are taken in “remembrance” of His body and blood.
“O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.”
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kimmielittle
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dianaiad
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Indeed, and I’m glad that someone ELSE brought that up.
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