Mormon Sacrament Question

[dianaiad]

Many people argue this…not just Mormons. However, you are correct; wine was used early, and it makes sense; until we found out about microbes and such, water was a lot more dangerous to drink than wine, especially in populated areas. The idea that Jesus drank (and offered) grape juice is…not a good one.

However, the reason Mormons use water and (quite literally) broken bread is that it is NOT the form of what is eaten and drunk that matters; it is the sacrament, the prayers and the purpose that does. After all, what if there is no wine? Can Catholics have communion if someone breaks the wine bottle?

We can

My father was going in for a triple (turned into a quadruple) by pass surgery, and the night beforehand the missionaries came by to visit. Dad asked for a blessing…and then asked if it would be all right if he could partake of the sacrament, since it was Sunday and he’d missed church for four weeks. The nurses were a little scattered…Dad wasn’t supposed to take 'anything by mouth" by then, but they allowed him to have an a very small sip of 7Up and a small piece of soda cracker. (shrug)

Worked fine.

I have to tell you that this conversation is a little ironic, given the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

 

[dianaiad]

In the Book of Revelations it instructs us to not take from or ADD TOO the books of the holy bible. The doctrine & cov., & the pearl of great price are added to the bible, therefore - untruths…

UHm… Vicki? that’s really not a good argument for a Catholic. Sacred Tradition and all that, y’know…

 

[dianaiad]

Do Mormons still use the prayer asking God to “bless and sanctify this **wine **to the souls of all those who drink of it?” Or do you ask God to bless “this water?”

If Jesus and the Apostles, and the Nephite church used grape juice, why does the LDS church not use grape juice today? There’s no temptation with grape juice.

Even though you say its less “ritualistic,” don’t you realize that its still a ritual (and that’s not a bad thing)? Do you think that people can’t draw deep spiritual meaning from rituals?

Nothing wrong with ritual; while our Sacrament prayers are two of the VERY few ‘scripted’ prayers we have, they must be exact–and yes, we ask God to 'bless and sanctify this water."

(grin) …and given that our Temple ceremonies make us, quite possibly, even more ritualistic than Catholics (though we separate that part out from our regular Sunday services), asking us if we didn’t think people couldn’t draw 'deep spiritual meaning from rituals" is a little…well,

Got a grin out of me, anyway.

 

[Annie_B]

In the Book of Revelations it instructs us to not take from or ADD TOO the books of the holy bible. The doctrine & cov., & the pearl of great price are added to the bible, therefore - untruths…

I believe that the Book of Revelation says that one is not to “add to this ~book~”, not ~books~. The Bible was not made into “one book” (actually a collection of books) until many years later.
Annie B

 

[dianaiad]

Do LDS refer to the sacrament as the body and blood of Christ? If not, what are they actually observing?

The text of the prayers is this:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine [water] to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

As you can see, we do not have a doctrine of transubstantiation; all this is done 'in remembrance." and that is rather clearly stated.

 

[dianaiad]

It is not offensive to state fact. I am quite aware that you don’t believe that our service is valid. That’s ok. We don’t think yours is, either.

However, I think we can both agree that the other guy’s is ‘valid’ in this: those who partake of communion (or the sacrament) are engaging in something that at least makes them think of Jesus and His redeeming sacrifice, and that’s always a positive thing.

 

[PaulDupre]

In the Book of Revelations it instructs us to not take from or ADD TOO the books of the holy bible. The doctrine & cov., & the pearl of great price are added to the bible, therefore - untruths…

But Deuteronomy 4:2 says:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

So, does that mean that everything in bible after Deuteronomy should be banned? If we apply the command of Deut 4:2 (honestly) to Revelation, that means that we should not alter John’s words (the book of Revelation). It has nothing to do with “the bible” as a whole, which did not even exist at that time.

My point here is that this is not a valid or useful objection to the Book of Mormon (BoM). There are many valid and useful objections to the BoM, but this is not one of them. If we try to use lame and easily debunked objections, we look like fools and lose credibility.

Paul (a former Mormon)

 

[amontoya]

I have to tell you that this conversation is a little ironic, given the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

Why? I’m just asking about your religious rituals and doctrines. I want to understand the reasoning behind it.

 

[dianaiad]

Why? I’m just asking about your religious rituals and doctrines. I want to understand the reasoning behind it.

I wasn’t specifically talking about your questions. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[zerinus]

Do LDS refer to the sacrament as the body and blood of Christ? If not, what are they actually observing?

Yes they do. In the Book of Mormon as well as the Doctrine and Covenants the same biblical expressions are used that the Catholics associate with “real presence”:

3 Nephi 18:

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.

Moroni 4:

1 The manner of their elders and priests administering the flesh and blood of Christ unto the church; and they administered it according to the commandments of Christ; wherefore we know the manner to be true; and the elder or priest did minister it

D&C 20:

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ

D&C 27:

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

However, we do not interpret these expressions literally, but consider them to be figurative expressions referring to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The sacrament is a memorial of the suffering of Christ. We do it in remembrance of Him, as also taught in the bible:

Luke 22:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luke 22:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

 

[vickimonica]

UHm… Vicki? that’s really not a good argument for a Catholic. Sacred Tradition and all that, y’know…

 

[vickimonica]

Please, I’m a convert to Catholicism after being a mormon for over 22 yrs., Been in the Temple, through all of the nutty rituals that I could spout off on here if I had the time or cared enough. (Believe you me, when I did share this info. w/ my RCIA class years ago, they were ready to fall off of their chairs). That being said, you must be interested in Catholicism, or you would not be on a Catholic site. Come on over…

 

[vickimonica]

What is “One such as myself”?:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yes they do. In the Book of Mormon as well as the Doctrine and Covenants the same biblical expressions are used that the Catholics associate with “real presence”:

3 Nephi 18:

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.

Moroni 4:

1 The manner of their elders and priests administering the flesh and blood of Christ unto the church; and they administered it according to the commandments of Christ; wherefore we know the manner to be true; and the elder or priest did minister it

D&C 20:

40 And to administer bread and wine—the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ

D&C 27:

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

However, we do not interpret these expressions literally, but consider them to be figurative expressions referring to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The sacrament is a memorial of the suffering of Christ. We do it in remembrance of Him, as also taught in the bible:

Luke 22:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luke 22:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Thanks - I am relieved to here that your communion ceremony is quite normal, even if you substitute water for wine and do not believe in transubstantiation. Only Catholics believe that the wine and bread are transformed into Christ’s blood and body, as far as I know. I think most Protestants agree with the Mormons, that it is just a remembrance ceremony. (I’ll take the Real Presence any day - thank you!)

 

[why_me]

Please, I’m a convert to Catholicism after being a mormon for over 22 yrs., Been in the Temple, through all of the nutty rituals that I could spout off on here if I had the time or cared enough. (Believe you me, when I did share this info. w/ my RCIA class years ago, they were ready to fall off of their chairs).

But you do know that many noncatholics can say the same about the catholic rituals…that they are nutty. And I am sure that some noncatholics would have a belly laugh at some catholic rituals also. For example saying the rosary. Some would consider that to be nutty. Or saying set prayers on prayer cards…some would consider that to be nutty. And then all the novenas…some would claim that to be nutty.

I think that we should be careful in calling another faith’s rituals nutty. The word can come back to haunt us.

 

[twopekinguys]

I believe some of the Lutherans and Anglicans do also.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sorry, of course I know that the Orthodox do too. They are even more Catholic than Catholics!!

I thought Lutherans believed in consubstantiation, which means the bread and wine remain bread and wine physically, but spiritually are changed into the body and blood. (which to me is more of a stretch than transubstantiation)

 

[TheosisM]

Thanks - I am relieved to here that your communion ceremony is quite normal, even if you substitute water for wine and do not believe in transubstantiation. Only Catholics believe that the wine and bread are transformed into Christ’s blood and body, as far as I know. I think most Protestants agree with the Mormons, that it is just a remembrance ceremony. (I’ll take the Real Presence any day - thank you!)

Well, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and probably a few others also believe in the Real Presence (that the body and blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist). We don’t all agree on how that occurs, which is what transubstantiation really is (Real Presence is the “what”, transubstantiation is the “how”). Orthodox leave it as a mystery.

Also, remember that the Eucharist is a remembrance ceremony. I think it’s important to emphasize that through the Eucharist, we remember the atonement of Christ, as well as His resurrection and our participation in His life. I never like when people try to present a dichotomy between the Eucharist (Real Presence) and “remembrance”/memorial. The Eucharist is very much a memorial service, done in remembrance of Christ. We don’t believe that it is just symbolic, but it is done in remembrance of Christ.

And I agree, the Real Presence in the Eucharist is wonderful .

 

[TheosisM]

Sorry, of course I know that the Orthodox do too. They are even more Catholic than Catholics!!

I thought Lutherans believed in consubstantiation, which means the bread and wine remain bread and wine physically, but spiritually are changed into the body and blood. (which to me is more of a stretch than transubstantiation)

Oh lol, didn’t realize you posted this .

Why would you say that the Orthodox are more Catholic than Catholics? They are still schismatic, but that’s for another thread .

 

[vickimonica]

But you do know that many noncatholics can say the same about the catholic rituals…that they are nutty. And I am sure that some noncatholics would have a belly laugh at some catholic rituals also. For example saying the rosary. Some would consider that to be nutty. Or saying set prayers on prayer cards…some would consider that to be nutty. And then all the novenas…some would claim that to be nutty.

I think that we should be careful in calling another faith’s rituals nutty. The word can come back to haunt us.

What baffles me is why you are even on this website if you think that “OUR” rituals are nutty… I do think the temple rituals that I’ve been through are completely NUTTY. However, notice I’m not on a mormon website???: