Mormon Sacrament Question

[thecourt]

Then things must have changed 180 degrees since I was LDS, because I heard Catholic bashing in LDS Sunday school classes and from the LDS pulpit during the entire 11 years I was LDS. They told us that Catholics worship statues and sell forgiveness for sins. They told us that Catholics deny the resurrection (I still read that one from Mormons on this forum from time to time) and that Catholics believe that God does not hear prayers. And the members ate it up with lots of tongue-clucking and laughter.

The lies told about Catholics by Mormon leaders was the first thing that started me doubting the inspired origins of the LDS church.

That is sad because unless your leadership allowed any doctrine other the true doctrine to be taught in Sunday School, I would never have allowed my conviction of the truth to go away because of things taught such as you have stated.

The church remains true despite your experience. I am not here to convert you back, you would have to have the Holy Ghost reveal what you need to know, if that is important for you.

 

[twopekinguys]

T.P. - Minor details. Being a Prophet called of God gave J.Smith the divine right to usurp power over the masses. Destroying Private property, marrying multiple women some of those already married, keeping most of that secret…or sacred…or secret from his wife, defrauding people out of their money through bank scams…and on and on and on.

I say Minor details! I mean the Master said “By their fruits ye shall know them.” or essentially their actions will reveal who they are. J.Smith’s actions well…how can you say they weren’t noble he was only doing what every great tyra…or dictato…or Cultist lead…I mean Prophet has done, he did what he needed to do to get the job done. If that means infringing on the rights of others, stealing their wives and money all in the name of salvation, so be it.
I hope my sarcasm is coming through here.

My surprise is given Courts record and reputation for being forthright and honest, with great ability to give a credible argument supported by substantiated …oh wait…never mind.
This is the Guy/Gal who’s claimed at different times to be of different denominations. He has no moral or spiritual fidelity and is a blatant liar. Yeah his arguments hold a lot of water with me.
They are good for a laugh though.

I may be showing my age here (yes, I’m old) but, why do the following phrases come to mind?

Flavor of the month.
Whichever way the wind blows.
Whatever floats your boat

It all kind of reminds me of Terry Fator (the ventriloquist). Whichever puppet he has in is hand is the character he portrays.

(Side not: I saw Terry Fator live, and the man is a phenominal entertainer)
etc

 

[dianaiad]

Actually the answer is yes. The body and blood of Christ are fully present in either the bread or the wine. Catholics get the full deal whether taking the bread, the wine, or both.

That’s something I didn’t know. Thank you.

So…what if the wine bottle is broken and the wafers are also gone? Can a priest substitute something else?

 

[why_me]

False charges?

All of this because the paper exposed JS for practicing polygamy in private and denying it in public. Let’s see, 34 wives wasn’t it?

One of the biggest problems with the lds leadership is that no one can tell when they are speaking as a prophet.

It seems that when the current prophet says something that disagrees with a previous prophet stated, everyone just says that the previous prophet wasn’t speaking in that capacity. Not to mention all of the changes in the BoM, D & C, etc.

Actually, the Expositor was a hate rag that deserved to be shut down by the city council. The Expositor issue was meant to rile up the mob against the mormons. I can compare it to the early Nazi newspapers that contained anti-jewish rubbish. The main guy behind the Expositor was a former mormon who did have issues with Joseph Smith. But the content was inflammatory.

By closing down the Expositor many lives were probably saved. It was an heroic act by the Nauvoo City Council.

Let me put it this way. I go into a Jewish neighborhood and begin to publish a Nazi rag against the jews which will then be distributed to anti-semites that live nearby. See the picture? Also, I don’t hear the catholic outcry for the mormon presses that were destroyed by mobs in Missouri. See the picture?

Destruction of Expositor
8 June 1844
Nauvoo city council meets regarding the Expositor.
10 June 1844
The city council declares the Expositor a public nuisance and threat to the peace. This was not mere exaggeration; there were sixteen episodes of mob violence against controversial newspapers in Illinois from 1832 to 1867, and so the leaders’ fears of civil unrest were likely well-founded. The city council therefore ordered the press and the paper destroyed.[15] This was done. The decision to suppress the Expositor, while legal for the day, worsened a tense situation (in the years following the Expositor suppression, similar tactics would be used in 1862, 1893, 1918, and 1927).[16]
Historically, presses which violated community ideas of what was proper were a genuine risk to the public peace. Elijah Lovejoy, an anti-slavery editor of The Saint Louis Observer was killed by a pro-slavery mob in 1837.[17] Joseph and the city council might well have had memories of what happened in Missouri when some members of the Church became frustrated with the lack of legal redress for their mistreatment by Missouri citizens.
Missouri probably also set the stage for the legal decision to suppress the press. In 1833, the Evening and Morning Star, the LDS paper in Independence, was subject to being “razed to the ground” at the unaninimous decision of the mob committee established to drive out the Mormons.[18] The mob’s ultimatum later stipulated that the Mormons were not to publish anything before leaving.[19]
The law of the day probably gave Joseph and the council the right to destroy the offending issue; however, since they had also ordered the press and type destroyed, they violated property laws. Joseph later said he would be happy to pay for the damages.[20] Critics are inconsistent when they complain about the Nauvoo city council’s decision to suppress the Expositor (an action that was legal) and yet do not also acknowledge that Mormon presses had been destroyed by mobs acting with no legal authority whatever.
Despite the fact that the Expositor’s suppression was legal, the destruction of the press appeared high-handed to Church critics, and other newspapers began to call for the Mormons’ expulsion or destruction. Joseph and others were arrested on charges of “riot.”
Safety for the Saints?
One member recorded that Joseph told him that the destruction of the press was necessary for the Saints’ safety:

en.fairmormon.org/Nauvoo_Expositor

 

[why_me]

T.P. - Minor details. Being a Prophet called of God gave J.Smith the divine right to usurp power over the masses. Destroying Private property, marrying multiple women some of those already married, keeping most of that secret…or sacred…or secret from his wife, defrauding people out of their money through bank scams…and on and on and on.

I say Minor details! I mean the Master said “By their fruits ye shall know them.” or essentially their actions will reveal who they are. J.Smith’s actions well…how can you say they weren’t noble he was only doing what every great tyra…or dictato…or Cultist lead…I mean Prophet has done, he did what he needed to do to get the job done. If that means infringing on the rights of others, stealing their wives and money all in the name of salvation, so be it.
.

And yet you remain silent about the mormon presses that were destroyed by mobs in Missouri and the mormon deaths that occured in that state. You can not pick and choose what presses should be destroyed. You can not say that mormon presses deserved to be destroyed but the antimormon rag Nauvoo Expositor did not. Unforutnately, you know nothing of mormon history.

The city council did a brave and noble act given what happened in Missouri. And the mormons supported the dicision.

Let me put it this way. The Jews have been attacked in Missouri, their presses destroyed and some were killed in Missouri. They come to Nauvoo and establish a community of believers. Suddenly a Nazi rag begins to publish in their community. What would you recommend these Jews to do?

Here is what the Expositor said about catholicism:

In the dark ages of Popery, when bigotry, superstition, and tyranny held universal sway over the empire of reason, there was some semblance of justice in the inquisitorial deliberations; which, however, might have been dictated by prudence, or the fear of consequences; but we are no longer forced to appeal to those states that are now situated under the influence of Popery for examples of injustice, cruelty and oppression-we can appeal to the acts of the inquisitorial deliverations, which, however, might have been dictated by prudence, or the fear of consequences: but we are no longer forced to appeal to those states that are now situated under the influence of popery for examples of injustice, cruelty and oppression-we can appeal to the acts of the inquisitorial department organized in Nauvoo, by Joseph and his accomplices, for specimens of injustice of the most perniciouis and diabolical character that ever stained the pages of the historian.

It was in Rome, and about the twelfth century, when Pope Innocent III, ordered father Dominic to excite the Catholic princes and people to extirpate heretics. But it is in this enlightened and intelligent nineteenth century, and in Nauvoo–a place professing to be the nucleus o the world, that Joseph Smith has established an inquisition, which, if it is suffered to exist, will prove more formidable and terrible to those who are found opposing the iniquities of Joseph and his associates, than ever the Spanish inquisiton did to heretics as they termed them

en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Nauvoo_Expositor_Full_Text

Now aint that a hoot? Comparing Joseph Smith to the Inquisitors!

 

[twopekinguys]

That’s something I didn’t know. Thank you.

So…what if the wine bottle is broken and the wafers are also gone? Can a priest substitute something else?

No, the elements that can be used are very specific.

In order for a Mass to be valid, the presiding priest must partake of both species (bread and wine).

The faithful are not required to receive both since Jesus is fully present in both forms. Even a portion of a host received by the faithful is just as valid as a complete host.

Here are some quotes from the Canon Law regarding what can be used for communion

THE CANONICAL REQUIREMENTS OF ROME

The Code of Canon Law is very specific with respect to the requirements for the matter and form of the Eucharistic Sacrament.

Canons 924, 925 & 926 address the issue of matter as it pertains to the bread and wine.

ARTICLE 3: THE RITES AND CEREMONIES

OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

[The Code of Canon Law, 1983]

---

Can. 924 §1 The most holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist must be celebrated in bread, and in wine to which a small quantity of water is to be added.

§2 The bread must be wheaten only, and recently made, so that there is no danger of corruption.

§3 The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the species of bread alone or, in accordance with the liturgical laws, under both species or, in case of necessity, even under the species of wine alone.

Can. 926 In the Eucharistic celebration, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread wherever he celebrates Mass.

Hope this helps.

 

[PaulDupre]

That’s something I didn’t know. Thank you.

So…what if the wine bottle is broken and the wafers are also gone? Can a priest substitute something else?

The only valid matter for the eucharist is unleavened wheat bread and grape wine. Any fresh unleavened bread made of only wheat and water will do, it doesn’t have to be “wafers”. And with the ubiquitous availability of grape wine, I don’t see much of a problem.

In both the Oriental and Latin Churches, the matter for the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is bread and wine. “The bread must be made of wheat alone and recently made so that there is no danger of corruption. The wine must be natural wine of the grape and not corrupt.”

• Code of Canon Law, Latin-English Edition, CLSA, Washington, DC, 1983, canon 924§2-3

There was an interesting thread on the subject , with references to some exceptional cases that may interest you here.

 

[why_me]

We hear that one about the grilled cheese sandwiches from LDS why me all the time.

Really? I don’t remember mentioning grilled cheese sandwiches at all. I do however try to be fair toward the mormons.

 

[why_me]

Then things must have changed 180 degrees since I was LDS, because I heard Catholic bashing in LDS Sunday school classes and from the LDS pulpit during the entire 11 years I was LDS. They told us that Catholics worship statues and sell forgiveness for sins. They told us that Catholics deny the resurrection (I still read that one from Mormons on this forum from time to time) and that Catholics believe that God does not hear prayers. And the members ate it up with lots of tongue-clucking and laughter.

The lies told about Catholics by Mormon leaders was the first thing that started me doubting the inspired origins of the LDS church.

Umm…I never heard this at all in sunday school. The lds sunday school is not about the catholic faith. It is mainly centered in lds doctrine. I heard no such things in sunday school classes. LDS sunday school is not a catholic history doctrine class. Nor is it anti-catholic. You will need to prove your accusations.

Or how about this:

In RCIA I heard that mormons are not christians and are heretics. They worship a different christ and wear funny underwear, with catholics laughing their heads off. Sounds wonderful! But not true.

 

[TheosisM]

The only valid matter for the eucharist is unleavened wheat bread and grape wine. Any fresh unleavened bread made of only wheat and water will do, it doesn’t have to be “wafers”. And with the ubiquitous availability of grape wine, I don’t see much of a problem.

True, in the parish I attended at college, someone usually made fresh unleavened bread.

Oh and remember that in the Eastern Catholic churches, I believe they use leavened bread, as their Eastern Orthodox counterparts do as well.

 

[PaulDupre]

True, in the parish I attended at college, someone usually made fresh unleavened bread.

Oh and remember that in the Eastern Catholic churches, I believe they use leavened bread, as their Eastern Orthodox counterparts do as well.

Yes, that’s true. I was speaking of the Latin Rite, but I should have been more exact. Thanks.

 

[PaulDupre]

That is sad because unless your leadership allowed any doctrine other the true doctrine to be taught in Sunday School…

True doctrine such as:

“Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10)

“I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian Churches), for they were all wrong…that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

“…all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels.” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)

“…orthodox Christian views of God are Pagan rather than Christian.” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H. Roberts, p.116)

“…the God whom the ‘Christians’ worship is a being of their own creation…” (Apostle Charles W. Penrose, JD 23:243)

“The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God.” (Brigham Young, JD 8:171)

“We may very properly say that the sectarian world do not know anything correctly, so far as pertains to salvation. Ask them where heaven is?- where they are going to when they die?-where Paradise is! -and there is not a priest in the world that can answer your questions. Ask them what kind of a being our Heavenly Father is, and they cannot tell you so much as Balaam’s *** told him. They are more ignorant than children.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:229).

“The Christian world, I discovered, was like the captain and crew of a vessel on the ocean without a compass, and tossed to and fro whithersoever the wind listed to blow them. When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:73).

“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.” (John Taylor, JD 13:225)

“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing…Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.” (John Taylor, JI) 13:225)

"Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.177)

“…brother Joseph B. Nobles once told a Methodist priest, after hearing him describe his god, that the god they worshiped was the “Mormon’s” Devil-a being without a body, whereas our God has a body, parts and passions.” (Brigham Young, JD 5:331)

“…brother Heber C. Kimball was beset by a number of Baptist priests who had been attending a conference. He read them all down out of the New Testament…With regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.” (Brigham Young, JD 8:199).

“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon…” (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, “Divine Authenticity,” no.6, p.84).

“And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act.” (Orson Pratt, OP-WA, “The Kingdom of God,” no.2, p.6)

“…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who recieves baptism or the Lord’s supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt people.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pg. 255)

“…the great apostate church as the anti-christ…This great antichrist…is the church of the devil.” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p.40)

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness.” (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)

“Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.” (Brigham Young, JD 6:176)

“Evil spirits control much of the so-called religious worship in the world; for instance, the great creeds of Christendom were formulated so as to conform to their whispered promptings.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.246)

“After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christiandom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon.” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324)

“You may hear the divines of the day extol the character of the Saviour, undertake to exhibit his true character before the people, and give an account of his origin…I have frequently thought of mules, which you know are half horse and half ***, when reflecting upon the representations made by those divines. I have heard sectarian priests undertake to tell the character of the Son of God, and they make him half of one species and half of another, and I could not avoid thinking at once of the mule, which is the most hateful creature that ever was made, I believe. You will excuse me, but I have thus thought many a time” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 4:217).

Those true doctrines? I heard them many, many times.

 

[amontoya]

True doctrine such as:

Those true doctrines? I heard them many, many times.

Whoa!

What makes this more disturbing to me is all of the LDS statements that we are given the “light” that we want. So, we want to be ignorant as brute beasts and fools?