Mormon straw men

[teancum79]

I was doing a little research on some catholic beliefs and found your site. While I think its great to have a resource on catholic beliefs I must take exception to the misrepresenting of other faiths position.

In particular the information relating to baptisms for the dead presents a very inaccurate version of the LDS or “Mormon” view.

catholic.com/library/Mormonism_Baptism_for_the_Dead.asp

That many would be saved if they where not accountable and capable of committing sin is a teaching found in the Book of Mormon. As is the concept of being accountable for what light and knowledge we have.

I am sure that faithful Catholics would want their positions accurately represented even by those who disagree with them. Can you do the same for others?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

If that is inaccurate information on Mormon baptism for the dead, can you tell us what the correct teaching is? Can you provide links to authoritative, official sources?

 

[teancum79]

scriptures.lds.org/ has links to the various LDS scriptures.

Moroni 8
8: Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

1. Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

Alma 29: 8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.

Doctrine and Covenants section 76 lays out in clear detail the fate of souls. It is quite consistent with the Book of Mormon verses cited here and on the web page.

1 Cor. 15:29 (cited in the page) while the LDS and catholic understanding of this verse differ I think we can agree that it was known about.

Obadiah 1:21 refers to saviors on mount Zion.
Also Malachi’s final words about the hearts of the children and fathers

There is no contradiction of thoughts here (as is implied). It is a large a semi complex for God to bring salvation to his children.

Now again I’m not here to argue who is right I’m just wondering why the view that is being disagreed is being altered from what it is.

Here are links to a few articles published in the LDS church’s official magazine.

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d2de3ff73058b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=cd2971ec9b17b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=eb13fd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

 

[ralphinal]

They believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death. The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a “spirit prison” until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.

Is this part correct about Mormon teaching?

 

[teancum79]

More or less yes. As with many things there are a lot of finer points to it, but it’s generally correct. The primary problems I noticed where in the “contradictions” section.

 

[ralphinal]

Help me out a little. Are the Alma and Nephi quotes listed on the Catholic site wrong or do they mean something different?

 

[teancum79]

I did not check them word for word, but like in the Bible a single verse ignoring the others would lead a person to a very wrong conclusion.

You may be know of some statement by Paul that some take to mean that Grace and grace only= salvation. That Grace trumps all commandments ever given that even obeying the words of Christ to be baptized are meaningless because grace saves. Those who read the entire New Testament find statements about salvation and Grace is not the only thing mentioned. In the page in question one part of an idea was presented than made to look as if the doctrine latter changed. In fact the doctrine was there the whole time it just got more details latter.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

the concern for me, as i would never presume to speak for all, is I do not want anyone doing a baptisms for me or members of my family after we have died into or by a church/religion that I do not believe in or agree with. Now if this is not happening then apologies should be made. but if this is a practice of the LDS then it is wrong. It is not only on this Forum that I have heard of this practice, but also from protestant site and church when discussion of LDS beliefs and practices are engaged in.

 

[Stephen168]

Help me out a little. Are the Alma and Nephi quotes listed on the Catholic site wrong or do they mean something different?

According to my 1981 copyright version Alma 34:35 reads: “For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

I noticed the Alma 34:32-33 reads: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to preform their labor. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.”

Labor means Good works.
And

2 Nephi 9:15 reads: “And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.”

 

[PaulDupre]

More or less yes. As with many things there are a lot of finer points to it, but it’s generally correct. The primary problems I noticed where in the “contradictions” section.

What problems exactly?

 

[teancum79]

the concern for me, as i would never presume to speak for all, is I do not want anyone doing a baptisms for me or members of my family after we have died into or by a church/religion that I do not believe in or agree with. Now if this is not happening then apologies should be made. but if this is a practice of the LDS then it is wrong. It is not only on this Forum that I have heard of this practice, but also from protestant site and church when discussion of LDS beliefs and practices are engaged in.

I’m aware that many find the practice offensive. My issue here is the inaccurate way the church’s position was presented.

 

[Stephen168]

They believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death. The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a “spirit prison” until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.

Is this part correct about Mormon teaching?

More or less yes. As with many things there are a lot of finer points to it, but it’s generally correct.

What is the straw man?

The primary problems I noticed where in the “contradictions” section.

IF there is a straw man, then the “contradictions section” is knocking the straw man over. But I don’t see the straw man, yet.

 

[zerinus]

Is this part correct about Mormon teaching?

Not very! Here is the quote:

They believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death.

That is a silly thing to say. We do not baptize them in order to “make them Mormons” after death. We baptize them because baptism is stated in the scriptures as a gospel requirement for salvation. No one can be saved without (a valid) baptism. The LDS Church is the only Church that has the authority from God to perform a valid baptism, on earth or (by proxy) in heaven. We baptise them in order to affect their salvation in heaven, not in order to make “Mormons” out of them in heaven.

The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a “spirit prison” until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.

It is not the “Mormon” gospel. It is the gospel. And it is not just a question of just “accepting the gospel” anywhere. It is a matter of the necessity of baptism for salvation. Baptism can only be performed on earth—and it is a requirement for salvation. Those who have not had the opportunity to hear or accept the gospel in this world will have that opportunity given to them in the next; but the baptism can only be performed (by proxy) here on earth.

Baptism by proxy is not a panacea for escaping from the punishment of sin. What Alma teaches still holds true. Those who have had the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life, but rejected it, and did not repent of their sins, will not be given a second chance. They will still have to pay the price of their sins in the next.

In LDS doctrine going to hell is not a permanent condition for all. It is a place to pay the price for your sins. Once that price is paid you can escape. Hell becomes a permanent state for those who commit the unpardonable sin. Jesus teaches that some sins cannot be forgiven in this life, or in the next (Matthew 12:32). This means that some sins can be forgiven in the next life. Jesus also tells us that those who go to hell do not all receive the same punishment. Some will be beaten with “fewer stripes” than others (Luke 12:48). This suggests that neither hell is all one place nor heaven; and not everyone who goes to hell stays there permanently. That is similar to the Purgatory of the Catholic Church.

The article is also incorrect in saying that there is no record of anyone preaching the gospel to the dead.

1 Peter 3:

19 By which also he [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So Jesus after His death (and before His resurrection) went into the spirit world and preached the gospel to those antediluvian sinners who were destroyed in the flood. Why did he go and preach the gospel to them if they had no hope of being saved through it?

The gospel is preached to the dead; and they do have the chance to accept or reject it if they wish; but their baptisms has to be performed here on earth.

zerinus

 

[Stephen168]

They believe people who have died can be baptized by proxy, thus allowing them the opportunity to become Mormons after their death. The idea behind baptism for the dead is this: God wants each of us to be with him in glory. To effect this, he allows us to accept the Mormon gospel here on earth. If we do not, he sends us to a “spirit prison” until the Mormon gospel has been preached to us there and we convert.

More or less yes. As with many things there are a lot of finer points to it, but it’s generally correct.

It is not the “Mormon” gospel. It is the gospel.

I still don’t see the straw man

I’m aware that many find the practice offensive. My issue here is the inaccurate way the church’s position was presented.

But you said it was correct.

Where is the straw man?

 

[teancum79]

“The case against baptism for the dead is also made by the Mormon scriptures themselves. The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon becomes an important tool for the Christian apologist. It contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.”

As I have been posting this is utterly false. Such a conclusion could only be reached out of ignorance or an attempt to discredit a religious view.

 

[ralphinal]

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. One more question, though.

zerinus,
you stated that only Mormons can validly baptize. How does that line up with Paul saying that there is one Baptism and Jesus telling the Apostles that those who are not against us are for us?

 

[majick275]

“The case against baptism for the dead is also made by the Mormon scriptures themselves. The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon becomes an important tool for the Christian apologist. It contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.”

As I have been posting this is utterly false. Such a conclusion could only be reached out of ignorance or an attempt to discredit a religious view.

actually examples abound of the BoM contradicting LDS practices and teachings as well as the D&C. they include but are not limited to the nature of God (trinity, plurality of Gods), polygamy, role of the temple, addressing prayers to jesus, etc.

 

[zerinus]

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. One more question, though.

zerinus,
you stated that only Mormons can validly baptize. How does that line up with Paul saying that there is one Baptism and Jesus telling the Apostles that those who are not against us are for us?

Baptism is a sacrament that requires priestly authority to be performed. It cannot be performed by “faith” alone. The Catholic Church also recognizes sacraments that can only be performed by a priest. That person whom the disciples tried to stop, but Jesus told them not to, was not performing any priestly functions. He was performing miracles in the name of Jesus by faith. Performing miracles is not a sacrament, and it does not require the priesthood to be performed. Anybody can perform a miracle in the name of Jesus if is has the faith to do so. But only a priest can perform a valid sacrament. If anybody can perform a sacrament; or if one became a priest just by virtue of his faith, and could perform valid sacraments; then the Protestants would be right. Why don’t you follow them?

zerinus

 

[ralphinal]

Baptism is a sacrament that requires priestly authority to be performed. It cannot be performed by “faith” alone. The Catholic Church also recognizes sacraments that can only be performed by a priest. That person whom the disciples tried to stop, but Jesus told them not to, was not performing any priestly functions. He was performing miracles in the name of Jesus by faith. Performing miracles is not a sacrament, and it does not require the priesthood to be performed. Anybody can perform a miracle in the name of Jesus if is has the faith to do so. But only a priest can perform a valid sacrament. If anybody can perform a sacrament; or if one became a priest just by virtue of his faith, and could perform valid sacraments; then the Protestants would be right. Why don’t you follow them?

zerinus

I understand. I was not aware that Mormons had an understanding of sacraments. Which ones do you acknowledge?

 

[Jerusha]

**1256 **The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You are welcome.