Mormon Student at Notre Dame Converts to Catholicism

[why_me]

Anytime I have read MADB, there is always a very anti-Christian tone there. There are people there who absolutely hate the Holy Trinity. They use “creedal Christians” as some sort of derogatory way to refer to all of Christianity. I have seen that term used here as well. They have no respect whatsoever for people who leave Mormonism.

They are being nice-nice to Levi at the moment. I predict that if he posts there long enough, it won’t be too long before they are attacking him personally instead of responding to what he says. This will be followed by analyzing him with armchair psychology. I’ve seen it, a hundred times.

Also, the usual batch of anti-Catholics haven’t come around yet to tell him that he has joined the great and abominable church, the whore of the world. We’ll see.

Nice try Rebecca. But the MAD board does not have an antichristian tone. Many catholics are there and no one gets the treatment that mormons get here. Very christian and understanding on that board. Levi will get the respect that he deserves and the moderators will see to it.

But nice try poisoning the well…but…it failed…

 

[Stephen168]

Sorry, but a priest did tell me that going to Mass was the least that a catholic can do.

Sorry, but IF a priest told you that, he was wrong.

It is required but there is so much more that a catholic should do and praying the rosary is one of them.

No, it is not. If you were a Catholic, you would know that.

What should a catholic do?

The Precepts of the Church

Pray the rosary, attend adoration, go on a retreat once a year and pray. It may not be required but it would certainly help their soul. Now that would be an active catholic.

None of this is required. If you were a Catholic, you would know the Precepts of the Church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nice try Rebecca. But the MAD board does not have an antichristian tone. Many catholics are there and no one gets the treatment that mormons get here. Very christian and understanding on that board. Levi will get the respect that he deserves and the moderators will see to it.

But nice try poisoning the well…but…it failed…

whyme, every mormon is anti-Trinitarian. This is the God we worship. The is the God we believe in. Every Trinitarian thread at that forum is hostile towards the very GOD who we worship. As dogmatic as you think this is, WHO we worship is THE POINT.

That is the most glaring anti-Christian tone of that board. There is also a general tone of not accepting the Bible. One thread I read once, was all about how Peter and Paul were utter failures and why it was a good thing JS came around to fix what they had screwed up.

I’m sorry whyme. As nice as people may or may not be, it isn’t about nice. “Nice” is not what we worship. When you speak against The One True God of Christianity, you are speaking against all of Christianity.

 

[1holycatholic]

Rest assured that I have no doubts about Mormonism.

You should. Mormonism is demonstrably false.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sorry, but a priest did tell me that going to Mass was the least that a catholic can do. It is required but there is so much more that a catholic should do and praying the rosary is one of them. Pope John Paul was attempting to bring the rosary back in vogue.

What should a catholic do? Pray the rosary, attend adoration, go on a retreat once a year and pray. It may not be required but it would certainly help their soul. Now that would be an active catholic.

And we should take advice on proper Catholic behavior from someone who advises Catholics to ignore the teachings of the church on the Eucharist? And by the way you are wrong about the least a Catholic can do, so wrong that I’m having a bit of trouble believing you really discussed this with a priest. You see, you still haven’t managed to come up with one of the must do’s for an active Catholic. You’re an active LDS who left the church and raised his children to be active members of the LDS church, as such you have no business dictating requirements for Catholics. Your insistence on having a check list (approved by you no less) shows your lack of understanding of Catholic devotions and your LDS mindset.

 

[Alma_X]

Catholic20064;5119748:

An active Catholic is one who would attend mass every Sunday and on holy days of obligation. Everything else is optional. QUOTE]

If that is all that it takes to be an active catholic then I can understand why some former mormons may find this to be wonderful since Mass can last from 45 to 60 minutes. However I do not consider a catholic who goes to just mass active. It is the least that a catholic can do. But there is much more to do to be active. Going to mass every sunday does not make a catholic devout. But saying the rosary, going on retreats and attending adorations do. Plus, praying during the week, having a small shrine in the home, for example in my home I have a statue of the virgin mary with the child jesus sitting on her lap plus my mom’s infant of prague and an old saint theresa statue. None our huge but a cozy size. Sorry, just going to mass just doesn’t make one active in the catholic church.

That’s a cultural difference between Catholics and the LDS. My experience as an LDS Bishop helped me to see something I never saw as a missionary or active temple-goer. I derived that as Mormons, we were overly concerned with the outward practices of our faith. Punching the clock at the meeting house, having a statue or an LDS-approved picture of a blonde haired, blue-eyed Jesus, etc. Fighting to have an emotional testimony to prove worthy. I had very little time for reflection and spiritual matters. I felt they were being dictated to me.

When my son and I were baptized as Roman Catholics, I found a release and an opportunity to strengthen my connection, not to the “church” (to mean organization) but to God, through Jesus. Which to me is the point.

So if a Catholic is only putting in an hour at Mass a week, so what. The communion of Mass is meant to strengthen our communion with God through the gift of Christ. It’s an amazing feeling. Often, it leads one to want to practice other devotions like praying the Rosary, or simple meditation. Or just doing something nice for a person. We can recognize these functions as ways to continue to improve our individual communication with God. That “still, small voice” that we as Mormons have been brought up to seek can be powerfully loud if we really take the opportunity to listen. To do that, we have to drop the “better than you” attitude. Catholics recognize the “true Church”, not as the Roman organization, but as the “Body of Christ, which encompasses all Christians.” My opinion is we missed that as Mormons and failed to recognize that in other faiths. Many LDS councils that I took part in were based on our organizational understanding of the word “church”, and how we as LDS were the true one, consequently practicing “comparative religion” instead of an active practice of communion with God . I determined for myself that it was the wrong direction. The beautiful thing is that God made this communion available to us at all times, not just in our organizational “church time”, or during church meetings. But at all times. And if a faithful Catholic takes advantage of that offer from God, then the practice of attending weekly Mass IS enough to be an active member. It feels great, and you will want to practice more adorations of some kind anyway.

 

[StrawberryJam]

News story here. Somebody posted it on MADB. That is where I first heard of it.

Big deal! One Mormon converts to Catholicism, and it is a news story. Hundreds of Catholics convert to Mormonism, and nobody hears about it.

Just wait until our new temple is built in Rome. Half Italians will become Mormons then!

zerinus

Well, I am happy Mormons and Catholics are doing things very positive in many ways.

This thread sounded positive, but ended sour to me.

Kind of like saying, you won one but we will win overall.

Who cares about such petty score keeping? Is this what believers worry about?

 

[Alma_X]

Many catholic churches are short of funds because they depend on the collection plate and if the collection plate is more or less empty, problems will come. The lds are just a tad different. No threat of bankruptcy yet.

Hmmm. Astute observation, but the Catholic Church is de-Centralized, meaning that while congregations can go financially bankrupt, it is highly doubtful that the Roman Catholic Church will ever do so, mostly because of the financial security of the Church outside of the United States. In the secular world, the Church owns too much leverage in priceless art, artifacts, and property. The Pope is also a Monarch, and head of state for an independant nation with a seat at the UN and ambassadors everywhere.

The Mormon church is very centralized. Big checks go to Salt Lake City every week. But the LDS are very good and also charitable with their money and should be commended for organizational priorities that anyone can learn from. The required 10% tithe to be a Mormon in good standing is said to be God’s law of finance. Traditional Christianity believes that, as Jesus was the answer to the Old Testament, those “laws” were answered for, which is why most denominations rely on whatever contribution it’s members can give, rather than a requirement to enjoy full participation in Heaven.

 

[pipper]

Well, I am happy Mormons and Catholics are doing things very positive in many ways.

This thread sounded positive, but ended sour to me.

Kind of like saying, you won one but we will win overall.

Who cares about such petty score keeping? Is this what believers worry about?

Zerinus leaves a lot of things out. He likes to boast of the zillions converting to the Mormon group, and then leave it at that.

He neglects to notice the revolving door nature of Momon memebership, the huge number of fleeting conversions. Mormons make it very easy to become one and very hard to leave. You can get out of Mormonism in one of two ways.

1. You can subject yourself to a very humiliating excommunication trial or
2. You can ask that your name can be removed from the membership records, and the Mormon hierarchy may eventually do that, but it sure ain’t easy and can take years or forever.

Most people just walk away, back to their churches of origin, or sadly enough to Atheism. But when you walk you remain in the records “for time and all eternity”, thus giving them their highly inflated membership numbers.

They go to traditionally Catholic lands such as Mexico and South America, and get people in with financial gifts, food etc.
The goods dry up, people return to the Catholic church without bothering to have their names removed, and it appears the Mormons are prospering there, base on members that have rejected Mormonism long ago.

 

[Alma_X]

Zerinus leaves a lot of things out. He likes to boast of the zillions converting to the Mormon group, and then leave it at that.

He neglects to notice the revolving door nature of Momon memebership, the huge number of fleeting conversions. Mormons make it very easy to become one and very hard to leave. You can get out of Mormonism in one of two ways.

1. You can subject yourself to a very humiliating excommunication trial or
2. You can ask that your name can be removed from the membership records, and the Mormon hierarchy may eventually do that, but it sure ain’t easy and can take years or forever.

Most people just walk away, back to their churches of origin, or sadly enough to Atheism. But when you walk you remain in the records “for time and all eternity”, thus giving them their highly inflated membership numbers.

Yep. I did (just walk away, that is). They’re still counting me. When I was an LDS Bishop, our General Authorities issued a letter to be read and discussed in a Sunday meeting regarding the number of Temple-Worthy practitioners (tithe paying, garment-wearing, card-carrying, jello-eating, Temple-going Mormons). Back then, we slated 12 million Mormons world-wide. (Today, they count 13.5 million I think.) According to the GA’s, half of those were regularly attending church, and only half of those had a Temple-recommend (all of the above qualifications except the jello are needed to enter the Temple). That makes about 3 million “serious” Mormons world-wide. A lot of former Mormons have just walked away after receiving the “meat” of the religion, which is much harder to swallow than the “milk”. But they are still counted. Like me.

Incidentally, due to the good advice of my wife, I am proceeding with the formal removal process, citing my practice of Roman Catholicism as a reason. They’ll drop me like a hot rock.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Zerinus leaves a lot of things out. He likes to boast of the zillions converting to the Mormon group, and then leave it at that.

He neglects to notice the revolving door nature of Momon memebership, the huge number of fleeting conversions. Mormons make it very easy to become one and very hard to leave. You can get out of Mormonism in one of two ways.

1. You can subject yourself to a very humiliating excommunication trial or
2. You can ask that your name can be removed from the membership records, and the Mormon hierarchy may eventually do that, but it sure ain’t easy and can take years or forever.

Most people just walk away, back to their churches of origin, or sadly enough to Atheism. But when you walk you remain in the records “for time and all eternity”, thus giving them their highly inflated membership numbers.

They go to traditionally Catholic lands such as Mexico and South America, and get people in with financial gifts, food etc.
The goods dry up, people return to the Catholic church without bothering to have their names removed, and it appears the Mormons are prospering there, base on members that have rejected Mormonism long ago.

Do either Mormons or Catholics care about numbers or membership protocols?

Instead of trying to worry about who is racing ahead, which btw sounds very similar to the Islam promotions I see appeals to numbers being used often! Why not worry about telling and teaching people about what reasons you have to believe in God at all? I can tell you that most of your efforts are going toward people that already do believe and are shopping for a better spiritual home or some such thing. But, as far as I can recall I never met a Mormon or a Catholic in my entire life that ever cared what I believed about or did not believe in. To be fair, you can add in there Lutheran and Methodist and non denom in the christian denominations. I never even met these JW’s that leave magazines in all sorts of places I have found them over the years. Still never met one face to face.

I could be a very unusual case, but I just don’t see people being very concerned about this at all like I see here. Here it is like a war zone.
:stretcher:

Its a much different enviornment than I have any real experiences with.

But, I am grateful to see the exchanges because they do help guide me with my questions, and get me thinking.

 

[Alma_X]

Do either Mormons or Catholics care about numbers or membership protocols?

Instead of trying to worry about who is racing ahead, which btw sounds very similar to the Islam promotions I see appeals to numbers being used often! Why not worry about telling and teaching people about what reasons you have to believe in God at all? I can tell you that most of your efforts are going toward people that already do believe and are shopping for a better spiritual home or some such thing. But, as far as I can recall I never met a Mormon or a Catholic in my entire life that ever cared what I believed about or did not believe in. To be fair, you can add in there Lutheran and Methodist and non denom in the christian denominations. I never even met these JW’s that leave magazines in all sorts of places I have found them over the years. Still never met one face to face.

I could be a very unusual case, but I just don’t see people being very concerned about this at all like I see here. Here it is like a war zone.
:stretcher:

Its a much different enviornment than I have any real experiences with.

But, I am grateful to see the exchanges because they do help guide me with my questions, and get me thinking.

Very good question and I hope I can help with an unbiased answer. You see, I was born into the LDS church and was a faithful practitioner for nearly 40 years, even having reached a local leadership level, and I can say with a resounding YES that the LDS church cares very much about it’s membership numbers and protocols. We have always used this information in the attempt to recruit others into the faith, but not always with the whole truth, to mean we would useda number that did not account for the mass exodus from the mormon church.

I have been a Roman Catholic for a handful of years now and have found no such comparison.

 

[pipper]

Do either Mormons or Catholics care about numbers or membership protocols?

Instead of trying to worry about who is racing ahead, which btw sounds very similar to the Islam promotions I see appeals to numbers being used often! Why not worry about telling and teaching people about what reasons you have to believe in God at all? I can tell you that most of your efforts are going toward people that already do believe and are shopping for a better spiritual home or some such thing. But, as far as I can recall I never met a Mormon or a Catholic in my entire life that ever cared what I believed about or did not believe in. To be fair, you can add in there Lutheran and Methodist and non denom in the christian denominations. I never even met these JW’s that leave magazines in all sorts of places I have found them over the years. Still never met one face to face.

I could be a very unusual case, but I just don’t see people being very concerned about this at all like I see here. Here it is like a war zone.
:stretcher:

Its a much different enviornment than I have any real experiences with.

But, I am grateful to see the exchanges because they do help guide me with my questions, and get me thinking.

Straw this Catholic is not interested all about playing a numbers game/competition with the Mormons. But I am very interested in honesty, When mormons like Zerinus count all former Mormons as current Mormons to falsely inflate Mormon numbers he just is not being honest.

To be honest God and religion do matter to people that believe in God, you may or may not include yourself in that number, no-one can force to to beleive, that’s your individual choice. I for one do not go to agnostic fora telling people they MUST believe in God.

About the war comment, since you are neither Catholic or Mormon, it seems there must be war.

Mormons on the one hand insult Catholics with their “apostacy-restoration” dichotomy. Which posits that true Christianity vansihed from the Earth when Catholics became apostate. Christianity only returned when Joseph Smith “restored” it back into being. This is very insulting to Catholics who are basically being told they are members of an illigitimate, apostate church.

Mormons OTOH are insulted when they are told by Catholics and the rest of orthodox Christianity that they are not Christians at all, just wanna be Christians.

With all the insults flying in both directions, can you expect anything but war?

Incidentally Mormons invade a Catholic list trying to proselytise Catholics into becoming Mormons. But Catholics do not return the favor, even if they wanted to, they are prohibited byn the very strict Mormon rules.

As you can see by my typing I am getti g very tired, but that is the resson for “war” in a nutshell.

 

[Alma_X]

zaffiroborant;5123740:

The point is: activity is depended by what is required by that particular church. The mormons have their way and the catholics have their way. But certainly when it comes to what is required mormons require much more since it is a church that depends on its members to keep the meetings functioning. Without the involvement of members, there would be no sunday school, talks in church, priesthood meetings and relief society. Mormons have no paid clergy to keep things moving along.

My Priest makes a $200.00 honorarium a month (though housing, a vehicle, and food are taken care of by the Parish). My Bishop makes no honorarium, and the Pope isn’t even allowed to have a bank account. In fact, even a Pope’s inherited family holdings have to be transferred to another family member, or donated somewhere. All Sunday school, music, and other religious ministries are facilitated mostly by unpaid clergy. So I would say that the Catholic Church depends on it’s members just as much to keep things moving along.

When I was an unpaid Bishop in the LDS church, we would sometimes speak of the difference we had of using our unpaid members to run local things, but I think we were really comparing our program to the Evangelical Christian churches that can have Pastors making a substantial sum, normally in relation to the success of their Church and the desires of their members. I don’t think we had an argument in suggesting that Catholics have much of a “paid” clergy. But when I joined the Catholic Church, I was suprised to discover how little the Leaders Religious are paid. No one’s going to get rich being a Catholic Priest.

At the time of my last LDS service, President Hinkley, the late-leader of the LDS church, and a man worthy of great respect, was making $120,000 a year and also had lodging and transportation provided. The 12 apostles, and the 70 were also compensated for what is a full-time and demanding job. But the local leadership do not receive any compensation.

Anyway, I agree that they are two different ways of doing things, but I wanted to point out that, when compared side by side, they are reasonably similar in purpose and execution.

Pfiat’ di Gott,
from Germany.

 

[zaffiroborant]

why me;5123895:

My Priest makes a $200.00 honorarium a month (though housing, a vehicle, and food are taken care of by the Parish). My Bishop makes no honorarium, and the Pope isn’t even allowed to have a bank account. In fact, even a Pope’s inherited family holdings have to be transferred to another family member, or donated somewhere. All Sunday school, music, and other religious ministries are facilitated mostly by unpaid clergy. So I would say that the Catholic Church depends on it’s members just as much to keep things moving along.

When I was an unpaid Bishop in the LDS church, we would sometimes speak of the difference we had of using our unpaid members to run local things, but I think we were really comparing our program to the Evangelical Christian churches that can have Pastors making a substantial sum, normally in relation to the success of their Church and the desires of their members. I don’t think we had an argument in suggesting that Catholics have much of a “paid” clergy. But when I joined the Catholic Church, I was suprised to discover how little the Leaders Religious are paid. No one’s going to get rich being a Catholic Priest.

At the time of my last LDS service, President Hinkley, the late-leader of the LDS church, and a man worthy of great respect, was making $120,000 a year and also had lodging and transportation provided. The 12 apostles, and the 70 were also compensated for what is a full-time and demanding job. But the local leadership do not receive any compensation.

Anyway, I agree that they are two different ways of doing things, but I wanted to point out that, when compared side by side, they are reasonably similar in purpose and execution.

Pfiat’ di Gott,
from Germany.

The quote attributed here to me was actually written by Whyme.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

News story here. Somebody posted it on MADB. That is where I first heard of it.

Big deal! One Mormon converts to Catholicism, and it is a news story. Hundreds of Catholics convert to Mormonism, and nobody hears about it.

Just wait until our new temple is built in Rome. Half Italians will become Mormons then!

zerinus

Somehow, it doesn’t seem that likely. Apart from anything else, that leaves out most of Italy​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am not bothered that the Mormons are building a temple in Rome. It will not make Catholics convert to Mormonism all of a sudden. There is nothing special about a Mormon Temple in Rome. You have built them in many places, and I don’t see Catholics beating down your doors.

Mormonism is a wacky American religion that will not really make in-roads in European countries such as Italy. Sure, it will attract some converts. But it will never become a large religion in any country outside of the USA. Mormonism will always remain a minor cult on the outskirts of Christianity.

Of Mormonism, SDAism, the JWs, & Christian Science, Mormonism seems to have spread least; it still has “Made in America” stamped on it, in a way that the JWs seem not to have, or the SDAs. These last two could have had exactly the same ideas & doctrines, even if they had not been founded in the USA - but Mormonism would be unrecognisable without its “sacred history” as described in the BoM.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Catholic20064;5119748:

An active Catholic is one who would attend mass every Sunday and on holy days of obligation. Everything else is optional. QUOTE]

If that is all that it takes to be an active catholic then I can understand why some former mormons may find this to be wonderful since Mass can last from 45 to 60 minutes. However I do not consider a catholic who goes to just mass active. It is the least that a catholic can do. But there is much more to do to be active. Going to mass every sunday does not make a catholic devout. But saying the rosary, going on retreats and attending adorations do. Plus, praying during the week, having a small shrine in the home, for example in my home I have a statue of the virgin mary with the child jesus sitting on her lap plus my mom’s infant of prague and an old saint theresa statue. None our huge but a cozy size. Sorry, just going to mass just doesn’t make one active in the catholic church.

Externals are not a good index of whether one is Catholic or not: because what is important, is what is in the heart. And that, God alone sees as it is: whether others think someone is “active” or “a good Catholic” could not be more unimportant. What good are externals, if all they do is hide a void ?​

 

[zaffiroborant]

Catholic20064;5119748:

An active Catholic is one who would attend mass every Sunday and on holy days of obligation. Everything else is optional. There is no requirement to say the Rosary or any other prayer. As I have been drawn towards the Lord I have found a desire within myself to attend mass daily, pray the Rosary and pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. There is so much grace available for us if we avail ourselves of these opportunities! It is wonderful even though I am under no obligation to go to mass everyday or pray these wonderful prayers. I also try to attend Eucharistic Adoration as often as possible so I can be in the presence of the Lord physically as well as spiritually. I encourage all of the Mormons here to begin praying the Rosary and see what wonderful things it does for you spiritually! Read the Bible everyday along with these prayers and mass and Eucharistic Adoration and you will experience the true presence of Jesus in your lives in a way I never experienced going to the Mormon sacrament meeting and reading the Book of Mormon. Jesus is so close to us – as close as the nearest Catholic chapel! And then to actually partake of the Eucharist and experience him withing us, feeding us. There is simply nothing like the feeling I get as a faithful Catholic practicing my faith. I miss some of the social aspects of Mormonism, but Jesus makes up for it with his real presence. It’s hard to tear away from the social life and the social pressure that Mormons have to experience a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but there is something freeing about being able to live my faith without social pressure! Nobody in the parish would know if I missed mass, but I wouldn’t want to give up my special time with Jesus.

Externals are not a good index of whether one is Catholic or not: because what is important, is what is in the heart. And that, God alone sees as it is: whether others think someone is “active” or “a good Catholic” could not be more unimportant. What good are externals, if all they do is hide a void ?​

I think that LDS view externals as having more importance.

How many catholic converts remain active? And what is an active catholic? An ‘active’ catholic goes to mass every sunday especially the days of obligation. Plus, there are retreats, adorations and devotionals. Difficult to say just how many active catholics there are and how many participate in church other than the sunday mass. And we must not forget the rosary. An active catholic would need to say the rosary at least once a week.

In the lds church it is easy to see who is active and who is less active.

Whyme is constantly trying to impose an LDS like activity standard on Catholics, and he still hasn’t been able to come up with the other big “marker” of an active Catholic. Probably because it isn’t a public activity, public being the only means he has of gauging the “activity level” of Catholics.

 

[Alma_X]

## Externals are not a good index of whether one is Catholic or not: because what is important, is what is in the heart. And that, God alone sees as it is: whether others think someone is “active” or “a good Catholic” could not be more unimportant. What good are externals, if all they do is hide a void ?

Well said, Sir.