Mormon temple ceremonies

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

For future reference you can go to www.lds.org for our basic beliefs. For more difficult discussion questions you can go to www.fairLDS.com. byub.org/home.asp which is the BYU website. There are many videos and round table discussions which are enlighhtening. You are correct in not wanting to go to the anti-Mormon sites. There is so much disinofrmation there that even I wouldn’t want anything to do with Mormons if I believed it all.

I have found that by and large most Catholic priests have a pretty good take on LDS doctrine however. They certainly are more intelligent than your-run-of-the-mill Mormon hater you get on the internet. Keep in mind that most anti-Mormons were excommunicated for cause. That does not mean that everyone who left the church was excommunicated. They left for all the usual reasons people leave any church. It is just the angry virulant ones are likely the ex’d former members. Mormons and Catholics have had a pretty good relationship over the years at least out here in the west. I think our greatest number of converts come from people with Catholic back grounds.

Still doesn’t make since that you have no statues of Jesus, but you have one of a Sungod/sunstone

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

For future reference you can go to www.lds.org for our basic beliefs. For more difficult discussion questions you can go to www.fairLDS.com. byub.org/home.asp which is the BYU website. There are many videos and round table discussions which are enlighhtening. You are correct in not wanting to go to the anti-Mormon sites. There is so much disinofrmation there that even I wouldn’t want anything to do with Mormons if I believed it all.

I have found that by and large most Catholic priests have a pretty good take on LDS doctrine however. They certainly are more intelligent than your-run-of-the-mill Mormon hater you get on the internet. Keep in mind that most anti-Mormons were excommunicated for cause. That does not mean that everyone who left the church was excommunicated. They left for all the usual reasons people leave any church. It is just the angry virulant ones are likely the ex’d former members. Mormons and Catholics have had a pretty good relationship over the years at least out here in the west. I think our greatest number of converts come from people with Catholic back grounds.

We should remember his death!! It reminds us of why he did what he did! He did it for us! Another words, out of sight out of mind; Insight in mind!

 

[LDSGuy]

Hmmmm, I wonder why God would have destroyed it like that! He does control our earth and has the power to destroy anything. You know, where I live it was devastated completely by hurricane Katrina. Not one house left standing on our beaches, or anywhere! It was complete devastation! We have casinos, big and beautiful casinos on our beach, and they washed up on the shores taking any house in its way, out! 4 casinos that did that! You want to know what was left standing, statues of Jesus, Mary, Saints!! Everyone at the time was talking about how those things survived; it was in the news all over. Not to mention all the coffins that were washed up from grave yards, some dating back to the 1800’s!! Even in those graveyards the statues were ok! I don’t think it was just a coincidence either! I think Mary was trying to open our eyes.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/554...7EC77F5F8D1CED28B8E56DE210063A40A659CEC4C8CB6

http://stpatrickslongbeach.org/About.html

http://www.rd.com/your-america-insp...ing-new-orleans-slideshow/article94449-2.html

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2005-11-22-katrina-thanks_x.htm

http://risingfromruin.msnbc.com/2005/12/standing_tall.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/sep/05/nation/na-church5

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,208089,00.html

http://www.muttshack.org/guideposts_magazine.htm

http://blogs.msdn.com/saraford/archive/2005/09/04/460933.aspx

http://www.journalofamericanhistory.org/projects/katrina/Otte.html

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...safe=active&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&sa=N&um=1

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4962121

http://www.iran-daily.com/1384/2381/html/dotcoms.htm

https://flic.kr/p/5gQFS5

this is more speculation than proving anything.

 

[LDSGuy]

Still doesn’t make since that you have no statues of Jesus, but you have one of a Sungod/sunstone

Sun god?? The stones, stars, eyes, etc. have various meanings related to the Gospel. Look at the links that I put in a previous post on this thread. There are many more that explain the symbolism behind these images. It’s also interesting to note that the pentagram is found on some old Catholic cathedrals, and was known in medieval Christianity.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christus_statue_temple_square_salt_lake_city.jpg
ldsstatues.com/

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Sun god?? The stones, stars, eyes, etc. have various meanings related to the Gospel. Look at the links that I put in a previous post on this thread. There are many more that explain the symbolism behind these images. It’s also interesting to note that the pentagram is found on some old Catholic cathedrals, and was known in medieval Christianity.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christus_statue_temple_square_salt_lake_city.jpg
ldsstatues.com/

You’re missing the whole point!!! Why no statues of Jesus instead??? It’s an easy question. Is it because you think Jesus or God would rather us have symbols of freemasonry instead of statues of things to remind you of Him, God, or Mary? I know you’re probably thinking y’all would never have a statue of Mary even if you did have statues of Jesus, but if it wasn’t for Mary saying yes to the Holy Spirit, than it would be a really sad life for us.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Sun god?? The stones, stars, eyes, etc. have various meanings related to the Gospel. Look at the links that I put in a previous post on this thread. There are many more that explain the symbolism behind these images. It’s also interesting to note that the pentagram is found on some old Catholic cathedrals, and was known in medieval Christianity.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Christus_statue_temple_square_salt_lake_city.jpg
ldsstatues.com/

Deuteronomy
Chapter 17
2 "If there is found among you, in any one of the communities which the LORD, your God, gives you, a man or a woman who does evil in the sight of the LORD, your God, and transgresses his covenant, 3 by serving other gods, or by worshiping the sun or the moon or any of the host of the sky, against my command;
4 and if, on being informed of it, you find by careful investigation that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in Israel: 5 1 you shall bring the man (or woman) who has done the evil deed out to your city gates and stone him to death. 6 The testimony of two or three witnesses is required for putting a person to death; no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
Deuteronomy
Chapter 4

15 "You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore, 16 not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman, 17 of any animal on the earth or of any bird that flies in the sky, 18 of anything that crawls on the ground or of any fish in the waters under the earth. 19 And when you look up to the heavens and behold the sun or the moon or any star among the heavenly hosts, do not be led astray into adoring them and serving them. These the LORD, your God, has let fall to the lot of all other nations under the heavens; Jeremiah
Chapter 81 At that time, says the LORD, the bones of the kings and princes of Judah, the bones of the priests and the prophets, and the bones of the citizens of Jerusalem will be emptied out of their graves 2 1 and spread out before the sun and the moon and the whole army of heaven, which they loved and served, which they followed, consulted, and worshiped. They will not be gathered up for burial, but will lie like dung upon the ground. 3 Death will be preferred to life by all the survivors of this wicked race who remain in any of the places to which I banish them, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[LDSGuy]

Deuteronomy
Chapter 17
2 "If there is found among you, in any one of the communities which the LORD, your God, gives you, a man or a woman who does evil in the sight of the LORD, your God, and transgresses his covenant, 3 by serving other gods, or by worshiping the sun or the moon or any of the host of the sky, against my command;
4 and if, on being informed of it, you find by careful investigation that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in Israel: 5 1 you shall bring the man (or woman) who has done the evil deed out to your city gates and stone him to death. 6 The testimony of two or three witnesses is required for putting a person to death; no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
Deuteronomy
Chapter 4

15 "You saw no form at all on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Be strictly on your guard, therefore, 16 not to degrade yourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or a woman, 17 of any animal on the earth or of any bird that flies in the sky, 18 of anything that crawls on the ground or of any fish in the waters under the earth. 19 And when you look up to the heavens and behold the sun or the moon or any star among the heavenly hosts, do not be led astray into adoring them and serving them. These the LORD, your God, has let fall to the lot of all other nations under the heavens; Jeremiah
Chapter 81 At that time, says the LORD, the bones of the kings and princes of Judah, the bones of the priests and the prophets, and the bones of the citizens of Jerusalem will be emptied out of their graves 2 1 and spread out before the sun and the moon and the whole army of heaven, which they loved and served, which they followed, consulted, and worshiped. They will not be gathered up for burial, but will lie like dung upon the ground. 3 Death will be preferred to life by all the survivors of this wicked race who remain in any of the places to which I banish them, says the LORD of hosts.

what are you referring to here?

 

[LDSGuy]

You’re missing the whole point!!! Why no statues of Jesus instead??? It’s an easy question. Is it because you think Jesus or God would rather us have symbols of freemasonry instead of statues of things to remind you of Him, God, or Mary? I know you’re probably thinking y’all would never have a statue of Mary even if you did have statues of Jesus, but if it wasn’t for Mary saying yes to the Holy Spirit, than it would be a really sad life for us.

The Christus statue is a prime example of a well known statue for Latter Day Saints. Many temples also have a statue of the angel Moroni, important to us as he points to the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I think you’re coming from the premise that we should have statues, which isn’t necessarily the case. The way I’m understanding your post is that we should have statues of Mary, for example, because she was important in the plan of God, bring the Savior into the world by using her agency to say “yes”. Catholicism and Orthodoxy both have theological reasons for the veneration of statues and icons that just isn’t present in LDS Christianity, and although many of our churches will have stained class or paintings, we don’t venerate them in the same manner that Catholic or Orthodox Christians might.

So the meaning of these symbols on our temples have great theological meaning, however I don’t see why the use of statues would make any more “sense”.

 

[Stephen168]

Catholicism and Orthodoxy both have theological reasons for the veneration of statues and icons

Catholics do not venerate statues or icons.

 

[LDSGuy]

Catholics do not venerate statues or icons.

?? I converted from the Catholic Church to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, and I’m very aware that Catholics do venerate statues. Note I didn’t say worship. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone.

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.

So yes, Catholics do venerate statues and/or icons (depending on whether it’s Latin Catholic or Eastern Catholic, with icons being more prominent in Eastern Catholic parishes).

 

[Ross09]

?? I converted from the Catholic Church to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, and I’m very aware that Catholics do venerate statues. Note I didn’t say worship. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone.

2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.

So yes, Catholics do venerate statues and/or icons (depending on whether it’s Latin Catholic or Eastern Catholic, with icons being more prominent in Eastern Catholic parishes).

If you include the second paragraph of 2132 from the catechism it exposes the point that Stephen was making: it’s not the image/statue that we venerate, but what/whom it represents.
2nd paragraph of 2132: “Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.”

 

[LDSGuy]

If you include the second paragraph of 2132 from the catechism it exposes the point that Stephen was making: it’s not the image/statue that we venerate, but what/whom it represents.
2nd paragraph of 2132: “Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.”

The key point that is made is that images are venerated, whereas only God is worshiped. Stephen said Catholics do not venerate images, when the Catechism clearly states that Catholics do venerate images, even if the end purpose is to show honor to what the image represents. This is even more clear in the Eastern Christian (Catholic and Orthodox) traditions.

Off topic anyway:thumbsup:

 

[Stephen168]

?? I converted from the Catholic Church to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, and I’m very aware that Catholics do venerate statues. Note I didn’t say worship. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: **Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is. **

Please quote the complete paragraph.

As long as you understand the difference between honor and worship

 

[ricko]

Well I didn’t know yall believed that. I must say I am really surprised at the belief that the atonement was the sweating of blood. So what was the purpose of Him dying on the cross? Also, the bible says that Jesus said “The Son of Man must DIE so that sins may be forgiven”. How do you reconcile your belief with what the bible says?

Online dictionary
A·tone·ment reconciliation between God and people: in Christian belief, the reconciliation between God and people brought about by the death of Jesus Christ

“making peace through the blood of His cross” (Coloss., i, 20).
“For you are bought with a great price” (I Cor., vi, 20).
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou avast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood” (Apoc., v, 9)
“the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” John10:11

JL, how about providing an answer for the above if you are able?

 

[Ross09]

The key point that is made is that images are venerated, whereas only God is worshiped. Stephen said Catholics do not venerate images, when the Catechism clearly states that Catholics do venerate images, even if the end purpose is to show honor to what the image represents. This is even more clear in the Eastern Christian (Catholic and Orthodox) traditions.

Off topic anyway:thumbsup:

Ok, I’ll keep that in mind, that it is permissible to quote incomplete parts of LDS literature and accept it at face value even when an LDS member tells me what is really behind the belief because I in all my wisdom know everything. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

 

[LDSGuy]

“making peace through the blood of His cross” (Coloss., i, 20).
“For you are bought with a great price” (I Cor., vi, 20).
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou avast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood” (Apoc., v, 9)
“the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” John10:11

JL, how about providing an answer for the above if you are able?

we believe that the Atonement began in the Garden and culminated on the Cross.

 

[LDSGuy]

Ok, I’ll keep that in mind, that it is permissible to quote incomplete parts of LDS literature and accept it at face value even when an LDS member tells me what is really behind the belief because I in all my wisdom know everything. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The Catechism is clear that Catholics do venerate images. My quoting the Catechism was from the statement-“Catholics do not venerate statues or icons”. The Catechism clearly states that Catholics do venerate images. The only thing that second paragraph states is that the veneration does not end at the image, but goes on to the person represented. It also says that Catholics do not [religiously] worship images, which does not mean they don’t venerate images, which, as I’ve stated, is especially explicit in the Eastern Catholic churches.

So your point doesn’t make sense.

 

[LDSGuy]

“making peace through the blood of His cross” (Coloss., i, 20).
“For you are bought with a great price” (I Cor., vi, 20).
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou avast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood” (Apoc., v, 9)
“the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” John10:11

JL, how about providing an answer for the above if you are able?

fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20110.html

That’s a great essay on the Atonement in LDS Christianity.

 

[Ross09]

The Catechism is clear that Catholics do venerate images. My quoting the Catechism was from the statement-“Catholics do not venerate statues or icons”. The Catechism clearly states that Catholics do venerate images. The only thing that second paragraph states is that the veneration does not end at the image, but goes on to the person represented. It also says that Catholics do not [religiously] worship images, which does not mean they don’t venerate images, which, as I’ve stated, is especially explicit in the Eastern Catholic churches.

So your point doesn’t make sense.

Whatever you say!

 

[Stephen168]

Ok, I’ll keep that in mind, that it is permissible to quote incomplete parts of LDS literature and accept it at face value even when an LDS member tells me what is really behind the belief because I in all my wisdom know everything. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Yes, quoting the complete text would make it clear that Mormons venerate statues the same way Catholics do.

Many temples also have a statue of the angel Moroni, important to us as he points to the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.