Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

[lax16]

continued: bold mine

**IV. HELL **

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, **the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619 **Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.620

You see, Parker, our Church wants everyone to be with God in heaven!

“He loves us and wants us to love Him.”

Yes, and His work is complete.

 

[lax16]

Your chip is showing…

Feeling discriminated against isn’t funny. And it has nothing to do with having a chip on one’s shoulder.

For those of us Catholics living in Utah, as I do, it is difficult.

Many, many people have stories to tell that are very sad. I have actually considered writing a book about it, but don’t know if I should.

Anyway, the one thing you will never hear a Utah Mormon say is “sorry.” Everything that is said or done to you is because you somehow deserve it - or - they say it never happened.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

The context of the conversation was a “temple recommend interview” in which a list of specific questions are asked that have to do with worthiness to enter the temple–the “house of the Lord”. Those questions are determined by the Twelve Apostles, and usually the members give a simple “yes” or “no” answer because the questions are not asking for confession of everyday kinds of sins. If an LDS member had committed adultery, fornication, child or spouse abuse, or a criminal act punishable by law, then they would have been expected based on the teachings of their church, to have disclosed that in a private interview with the bishop long before a “temple recommend interview”, and would know that a “temple recommend” was out of the question unless such had been done and been resolved through such a person confessing to God, resolving the action by changing behavior and making restitution if circumstances included needing to do that, and in that repentance process had disclosed the serious sin to the member’s bishop so that he could discern whether the person was going through the process of sincere repentance and had resolved the matter.

I suppose one could call that “hearing confession,” but I think it is understood by LDS members that they are to confess any sin in their life to God directly in prayer, and thus the Savior will lift them toward making changes in their life and will heal their heart, and if they do that and know the Ten Commandments and keep them then they will never during the course of their life “need” to resolve a serious sin because they will have resolved “less serious sins” directly with God through prayer, and won’t get into the position of committing one of those serious sins. (Being dis-fellowshipped or excommunicated has to do with whether the person can partake of communion and whether a man loses his authority of the priesthood–not whether the person can enter the temple since they already know they can’t. It has to do with those specific serious sins that I already listed, and the bishop considers the circumstance based on written guidelines from the apostles if a member committed one of those serious sins.)

LDS bishops listen to confessions rather than teaching the correct doctrine that confession should be directly to God in prayer. LDS bishops have no business listening to any confessions since this is incorrect doctrine.

In short:

If it is correct for LDS bishops to listen to confessions, then it is correct for Catholic priests to listen to confessions.

 

[lax16]

Bishop (Latter Day Saints)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(edited for length)
Bishop is the highest priesthood office of the Aaronic priesthood in the Latter Day Saint movement. A bishop is usually the leader of a local congregation of church members. The Latter Day Saint concept of the office differs significantly from the role of bishops in other Christian denominations, **being in some respects more analogous to a pastor or parish **priest. Each bishop serves with two counselors, which together form a bishopric.

The Bishop is often called “the father of the ward”[1] as he is the priesthood leader who is most intimately involved with individual church members. The bishop is not paid for the time he devotes to serving his ward. All ward and stake level callings in the LDS Church operate as a lay ministry; members donate their time to perform the duties assigned with each calling.

Duties
The bishop holds the primary responsibility for everything in the ward, **both spiritually and **temporally. Although he can delegate specific assignments to his counselors, the ultimate responsibility falls to him. His duties include presiding over and conducting meetings and worship services; serving as president of the ward’s quorum of priests; acting as a “Judge in Israel” or “common judge”; providing temporary financial relief for ward members; serving as the presiding high priest of the ward; and organizing and managing the ward’s auxiliary organizations. After being called, a bishop is ordained a high priest (if he does not already hold that priesthood office) and then ordained a bishop and set apart as the bishop and presiding high priest of the ward. He is also given the priesthood “keys” which authorize him to serve as a representative for the Lord in performing his duties.

Judge in Israel — **Members are interviewed by their bishop in order to receive a temple ****recommend. **The bishop signs the recommend to indicate that the member is following basic tenets of the church and is worthy to enter the temple. Additionally, members seek out guidance from the bishop in overcoming personal challenges. Serious sins must be confessed to the bishop who helps members through the repentance process. In some cases, the bishop presides over a church disciplinary council where the outcome can include admonishment, probation, disfellowshipment, or, excommunication depending on the severity of the sin and the attitude of the wardmember. Additionally, the bishop also has the authority and duty to counsel members on spiritual matters, and sits as a “common judge” in the event of disputes between wardmembers. Bishops typically withdraw from involvement in matters which have been taken to the law.

Serve as the presiding high priest for the ward — As the presiding high priest, the bishop leads meetings and **has the priesthood authority to issue callings, approve the performance of ordinances such as baptisms and the administration of the sacrament. **The high priests that reside in several wards that form a stake are part of a quorum led by the stake president. In each ward the high priests are organized into a Group. In the ward, the bishop gives direction to and coordinates the efforts of the High Priest Group leader and the Elders Quorum president in performing their duties.

 

[ParkerD]

Bishop (Latter Day Saints)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(edited for length)
Bishop is the highest priesthood office of the Aaronic priesthood in the Latter Day Saint movement. A bishop is usually the leader of a local congregation of church members. The Latter Day Saint concept of the office differs significantly from the role of bishops in other Christian denominations, **being in some respects more analogous to a pastor or parish **priest. Each bishop serves with two counselors, which together form a bishopric.

The Bishop is often called “the father of the ward”[1] as he is the priesthood leader who is most intimately involved with individual church members. The bishop is not paid for the time he devotes to serving his ward. All ward and stake level callings in the LDS Church operate as a lay ministry; members donate their time to perform the duties assigned with each calling.

Duties
The bishop holds the primary responsibility for everything in the ward, **both spiritually and **temporally. Although he can delegate specific assignments to his counselors, the ultimate responsibility falls to him. His duties include presiding over and conducting meetings and worship services; serving as president of the ward’s quorum of priests; acting as a “Judge in Israel” or “common judge”; providing temporary financial relief for ward members; serving as the presiding high priest of the ward; and organizing and managing the ward’s auxiliary organizations. After being called, a bishop is ordained a high priest (if he does not already hold that priesthood office) and then ordained a bishop and set apart as the bishop and presiding high priest of the ward. He is also given the priesthood “keys” which authorize him to serve as a representative for the Lord in performing his duties.

Judge in Israel — **Members are interviewed by their bishop in order to receive a temple ****recommend. **The bishop signs the recommend to indicate that the member is following basic tenets of the church and is worthy to enter the temple. Additionally, members seek out guidance from the bishop in overcoming personal challenges. Serious sins must be confessed to the bishop who helps members through the repentance process. In some cases, the bishop presides over a church disciplinary council where the outcome can include admonishment, probation, disfellowshipment, or, excommunication depending on the severity of the sin and the attitude of the wardmember. Additionally, the bishop also has the authority and duty to counsel members on spiritual matters, and sits as a “common judge” in the event of disputes between wardmembers. Bishops typically withdraw from involvement in matters which have been taken to the law.

Serve as the presiding high priest for the ward — As the presiding high priest, the bishop leads meetings and **has the priesthood authority to issue callings, approve the performance of ordinances such as baptisms and the administration of the sacrament. **The high priests that reside in several wards that form a stake are part of a quorum led by the stake president. In each ward the high priests are organized into a Group. In the ward, the bishop gives direction to and coordinates the efforts of the High Priest Group leader and the Elders Quorum president in performing their duties.

Lax16,

Yes, the above is basically correct–this is why I remarked that your position about a bishop not being qualified to approve a temple recommend through asking the questions specifically directed by the apostles does not match what the Bible teaches about the apostles, because they were given that authority and specifically the keys related to that authority of discerning worthiness for sacred ordinances, including communion and temple ordinances.

Here is an apostle’s (Elder Richard Scott) explanation about confession needing to be to God, always, and to a bishop when there are the specific serious sins I had previously noted:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=6150ea00a8bf6210VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

A distinction is that the person does not say a prayer of confession during that interview with the bishop, and the bishop will ask if the person has confessed to God and asked for forgiveness and dealt with beginning the restitution steps and the complete change of life that repentance means.

Finally, our conversation dealt with the temple recommend interview, wherein a member in good standing makes no confession, at all, because they confess their sins daily and weekly to God in personal prayer, and seek help through Christ and His atoning grace in overcoming those sins daily.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Yes, the above is basically correct–this is why I remarked that your position about a bishop not being qualified to approve a temple recommend through asking the questions specifically directed by the apostles does not match what the Bible teaches about the apostles, because they were given that authority and specifically the keys related to that authority of discerning worthiness for sacred ordinances, including communion and temple ordinances.

Hi Parker - I have re-read my posts and cannot see where I took the position that an LDS bishop is not qualified to approve a temple recommend through the asking of questions…?? I obviously do not understand how the LDS think that they were given authority but that is a question of Church history, the alleged apostasy, and apostolic succession, not my opinion.
The questions I asked were related to the role of bishop as confessor.

Here is an apostle’s (Elder Richard Scott) explanation about confession needing to be to God, always, and to a bishop when there are the specific serious sins I had previously noted:

A distinction is that the person does not say a prayer of confession during that interview with the bishop, and the bishop will ask if the person has confessed to God and asked for forgiveness and dealt with beginning the restitution steps and the complete change of life that repentance means.

I have noticed that many LDS practices are in direct opposition to Catholic practices - no crosses on places of worship, no folding of the hands during prayer, no prayer during confession…
All Catholics pray to God for forgiveness using one of several versions of this prayer in the confessional:

Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,
And I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishment,
but most of all because they offend Thee my God,
Who art all good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to sin no more
and to avoid the near occasion of sin. Amen.

Obviously, the prayer is directed to God as are the prayers said after confession for penance that are done outside of the confessional.

Finally, our conversation dealt with the temple recommend interview, wherein a member in good standing makes no confession, at all, because they confess their sins daily and weekly to God in personal prayer, and seek help through Christ and His atoning grace in overcoming those sins daily.

I thought our conversations were dealing with the fact that Jesus is the Perfect Sacrifice which makes temple practices obsolete.
I am glad to hear there are people who confess their sins daily and weekly to God in personal prayer and seek help through Christ and His atoning grace in overcoming those sins daily.
Catholics pray daily for forgiveness as well. It is not saved up for confession only.

In the words that Jesus taught us (Luke 11:2-4):

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

And then, of course, in the many prayers said throughout the day for help and forgiveness that Catholics put into their words.

 

[KathleenGee]

I consider Parker a most charitable person.

But the position of Mormonism to me isn’t so much for Christ, but anti-other Christian churches, bent on re-defining so many principles. I wish some Mormons would venture to study academic and professional and verifiable Judeo Christian salvation history.

Last night I went to Mass and in part offered for this rift the Mormons have with Christianity and how it affects members of our faith, such as One Holy Trinity.

The construct of the universal, apostolic faith is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The construct of Mormonism is that we are corrupt. And so that brings about ill feelings by how the reconstruction of their religion and its attitude towards Catholics and Protestants can be hurtful as well.

All the debating in the world will not build links. We must continue to pray for more faith and understanding that the Lord will guide us into true union with one another.

 

[The_One_Trinity]

I consider Parker a most charitable person.

But the position of Mormonism to me isn’t so much for Christ, but anti-other Christian churches, bent on re-defining so many principles. I wish some Mormons would venture to study academic and professional and verifiable Judeo Christian salvation history.

Last night I went to Mass and in part offered for this rift the Mormons have with Christianity and how it affects members of our faith, such as One Holy Trinity.

The construct of the universal, apostolic faith is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The construct of Mormonism is that we are corrupt. And so that brings about ill feelings by how the reconstruction of their religion and its attitude towards Catholics and Protestants can be hurtful as well.

All the debating in the world will not build links. We must continue to pray for more faith and understanding that the Lord will guide us into true union with one another.

I see your point. But its hard for me to pray for the mormons. They would rather see our religion fail. If you lived here in Sin City (Salt Lake) I think you might have different feelings towards these people. But I will try and pray

 

[KathleenGee]

One True Unity,

I shared about the description of the Mass in ancient Rome, practiced inside the city, and in the countryside surrounding Rome, where the new LDS temple will be built. Such descriptions of faith and liturgy were not corrupt then, and today, their form is about the same. Our faith practices, liturgy, and doctrine are not corrupt. Don’t buy into that.

Believe in the faith you profess. Spend time living it. Do not spend time dwelling on scandal. Because scandal is the opposite of life lived in God and dwelling on scandal only harms you. There is a passage in Phillipians about keeping one’s focus on all that is true and good. The Catholic and Orthodox churches and their liturgies are most beautiful in proclaiming the Word of God and providing us a most sacred Banquet Table appropriate and fitting to the One, True God.

Put all in Christ, let God be God, and grace will resolve all if you have faith.

 

[SteveVH]

I consider Parker a most charitable person.

But the position of Mormonism to me isn’t so much for Christ, but anti-other Christian churches, bent on re-defining so many principles. I wish some Mormons would venture to study academic and professional and verifiable Judeo Christian salvation history.

Last night I went to Mass and in part offered for this rift the Mormons have with Christianity and how it affects members of our faith, such as One Holy Trinity.

The construct of the universal, apostolic faith is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The construct of Mormonism is that we are corrupt. And so that brings about ill feelings by how the reconstruction of their religion and its attitude towards Catholics and Protestants can be hurtful as well.

All the debating in the world will not build links. We must continue to pray for more faith and understanding that the Lord will guide us into true union with one another.

Well said Kathleen.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I’m sure they are very knowledgeable about the LDS religion and I don’t believe they are afraid of it at all. They don’t consider the LDS church as Christian for the reasons posted above. * I would be surprised if Holy Father would visit the Open House but then you never know…if his visit appears to sanction it I doub it.*

There are, and have always been, lots of temples in Rome. I’m sure we will continue to disagree with mormons about where the true Church is found, but I wish them well in their endeavors to the extent that they do not conflict with Catholic doctrines and teachings.

I don’t think there is fear about mormonism. Just healthy and open (and we hope charitable) critiques of mormon doctrine and practice. This is the bedrock for true ecumenical dialogue.

I wish all Mormons well. I hope they will consider Catholicism with the same fair lens. I, for one, have no fear that the Catholic Church would withstand all such fair and open scrutiny.

Peace,
Robert

 

[StevieD]

In 2008 Italy had 22k members.
I wonder how many LDS tourists visit Rome each year

If your figure is from official LDS sources, then you can probably reduce it by around 75%. When the figures issued by the LDS are compared to the membership admitted in censuses in various countries (especially in South America), they are always grossly exaggerated. The figures for the UK show one years’ figures plus baptisms = the following years’ figure!! No-one leaves, no-one dies, no-one emigrates, no-one is excommunicated. The contributions figures have to be published in the UK under charity law and this shows that the average adult LDS member (if tithing) earns about a quarter of the national average which indicates that the active membership is around one quarter of the published membership figure. Now 25% active is a good proportion for most religions but the LDS have never published active membership figures?
The building of more and more temples appears to be for the benefit of the faithful to persuade them that the ‘church’ is growing at a greater rate than is actually true.

 

[flyonthewall]

Feeling discriminated against isn’t funny. And it has nothing to do with having a chip on one’s shoulder.

For those of us Catholics living in Utah, as I do, it is difficult.

Many, many people have stories to tell that are very sad. I have actually considered writing a book about it, but don’t know if I should.

No, being discriminated against is not funny. Would it be similar to being labeled “hypocrites”, “racists”, and “pedophiles” by virtue of one’s faith?

Anyway, the one thing you will never hear a Utah Mormon say is “sorry.” Everything that is said or done to you is because you somehow deserve it - or - they say it never happened.

This may be your perception, but such blanket statements rarely ring true.

 

[lax16]

No, being discriminated against is not funny. Would it be similar to being labeled “hypocrites”, “racists”, and “pedophiles” by virtue of one’s faith?

This may be your perception, but such blanket statements rarely ring true.

Do you live in Utah? Are you being discriminated against for your religion?

Who labeled someone “pedophiles?”

It is not just my perception, flyonthewall, as there are two of us here saying it is true.

Here we go…tell me it never happened.

Maybe someone *should *write a book about being Catholic in Utah.

 

[The_One_Trinity]

FlyOnTheWall, does your book not say that the light skinned people are better than the dark skinned people who will be damned? If you say it doesnt then maybe you dont know your own religions background. So if it in fact says it does and now all of a sudden you allow other races into your church does it not make your religion hypocrites?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe someone *should *write a book about being Catholic in Utah.

Or just being non-Mormon in Utah.

Mormons would just think it was all one big lie. BUT, I have a chapter, “Flying Delta With The RMs” (returning missionaries)…

 

[JeanMichel]

We really must move on from this caliber of conversation; painting with such broad brush strokes in absolute statements. Not every Mormon insults others; to say so is preposterous if not deceiptful. No all Catholics are raving lunatics or close minded. On both sides of the issue are faults and strengths.

Each of you needs to step back and re-read your comments with an objective eye so that you understand how outlandish they are and how uncharitable. They demonstrate nothing of the Spirit of Christ or of words befitting a follower of Jesus.

I agree that healthy, ecumenical discussion can certainly disagree, but it is never uncharitable or deceiptful.

 

[Holly3278]

Back in 2008 the Mormon (LDS) Church announced it was going to build one of their temples in Rome. It was the subject of this now closed thread on this forum. Today (October 23, 2010) construction begins, their Prophet will be in town to break ground on the new building. I am a Catholic, but excited to see this happen, their temples are beautiful buildings, and I am tolerant of other Christian religions. Plus apparently it will be clear across Rome from the Vatican so we don’t need to worry about that!

More info on the temple

Honestly, I’m surprised they didn’t do this a long long time ago! The Mormons are very anti-Catholic as they should be considering the level of sheer Heresy they have sunken to. It honestly don’t surprise me that they don’t build their “temple” directly across from Peter’s Basilica if anyone would ever allow that! :banghead:

 

[JeanMichel]

Honestly, I’m surprised they didn’t do this a long long time ago! The Mormons are very anti-Catholic as they should be considering the level of sheer Heresy they have sunken to. It honestly don’t surprise me that they don’t build their “temple” directly across from Peter’s Basilica if anyone would ever allow that! :banghead:

In what way are they anti-Catholic? Is this a personal opinion or can you report on how the current leadership has acted in an anti-Catholic manner. I heard that the LDS Church assisted financially in the rehab of the SLC Cathedral and often they work jointly together to serve local needs of the poor. The Cathedral of the Madeleine is located just a few blocks east of Temple Square. Surprisingly, the LDS leadership was in attendance at the 100 year anniversary of the cathedral. Given that this beautiful cathedral is just a few blocks from the central most important Mormon temple, it is odd that Mormons don’t complain or taunt Catholics about being on “their” home turf. The Rome temple is not even close; Holly even taunts that Mormons for doing the same thing Catholics have already done.

Again, every time we complain about others we find that we ourselves have already done the same thing we complain about. Why not just stop the complaining and petty accusations?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not every Mormon insults others;

No one said that all Mormons insult others, and perhaps…

to say so is preposterous if not deceiptful.