Mormon Visit - Thanks CAF!

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Just spent a very pleasent hour with a couple of Mormon Missionaries and wanted to just say thanks to CAF. The time I’ve spent here was instrumental. CAF gave me much good information. and the Holy Spirit gave me the ability to express myself clearly.

I did not really allow them to do much preaching to us, instead I kept the conversation focused primarily on one of authority.
I explained to them how I had been away from the Church and had come back a couple of years ago. I explained that the issue of the Church’s authority was the real clinchure for me.
The conversation then became a question of how and why one accepts the Bible, without using the Bible as proof. Naturally it is because of the authority of the Church that we accept the Bible. How can one declare the Bible innerrant when different Bibles have different numbers of books? And, of course they use a truncated bible.
Anyway, it really revolved around the idea that:
  1. Without proper Authority, (they gave a date of between 80 and 400 for the apostacy) the Church could not have put togather a trustworthy canon.
  2. Even is the canon is trustworthy, if the Church failed at any point then Jesus lied and we can disregard the entire bible as being suspect.
We also addressed the issue of authority in Jesus instruction to the disciples in Matthew 18 15-18, "… Tell it to the Church, and I prodded them rather strongly as to which Church?

I basically told them I would not consider the Book of Mormon simply because I cannot justify the book because I cannot justify it’s authority.

Actually I’m still thinking of points I could have given them to consider.

I must say that they were most polite and pleasant, even though I can become pretty hyper. They listened and left one small pamphlet. I’m sure I didn’t convert anyone but hopefully gave them a bit to consider.

Peace
James
 
I also refer to the writings of the Apostolic and ECF to show the continuity of Church Authority and Teachings.

BTW, I believe that Authority is the Key Issue and always take it back to that rather than discussing other things like purgatory, Sunday worship, Mary and the Saints etc…

Just prepare the soil and/or plant the seed. God will send someone else to nurture it.
 
Praise be to God. I pray that I’m given the occasion to witness to some of the door-to-door evangelizers with charity and profit!
 
Hi all and God bless,

I also am having a present day experience with a couple of very polite Mormon missionaries. They are from California.

I met them at the library (where I read CAF!) while they were on the internet, too. I introduced myself, they did likewise.

I asked if they would like to go out for lunch, so we went Wednesday (2 days ago). The handed me a Book of Mormon and a pamphlet that outlined thier version of Christian history. I started thumbing through it and when I got to the Great Apostacy (where the church sort of fell off the earth after the Apostles died), I said it was biblically impossible for this to happen.

I then cited Mt 16:18 - “and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it,” and John 16, Jesus speech on the Coming of the Advocate. I asked them if they really believed that Jesus would lie about these promises and abandon His church?

We spoke about the passages for a while and they said no, Jesus would not break His promise, but, quite frankly, they seemed to pass it off. I planted a seed anyway.

Anyhow, they will be coming to Mass on Sunday, in return I will be attending one of thier church services. A fair trade, I think. I also invited them to our parish scripture study, and they actually came last night! They may be attending for the ten week course. We’ll see what happens.

Sub
 
I just finished skimming through the pamphlet they left.
It’s called, "The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well - - I didn’t read it all. Honestly the idea is just laughable to me.
It’s interesting that, in this pamphlet, jesus is occasianally paraphrased, but never quoted with a ch:vs reference.

According to this pamphlet:
“Revealed Truths are lost as people reject the prophets”
“Because of apostasy, people lose knowledge of the gospel. Priesthood authority is taken from among them.”

So by this reasoning, the Priesthood of the Jews was evidently withdrawn from them when they fell away from following God. I’m sure the Jews would be surprised to know this.

Again, according to this pamphlet:
“When Jesus established His Church, He recieved instructions form Heavenly Father. He then instructed His disciples. Jesus taught His followers that revelation from God was the rock on which He would build His Church.”

It goes on to say:

Jesus Christ Organized His Church
  • He called and Ordained Apostles
  • He gave them authority to teach and baptize. This authority is called priesthood.
  • After His death and resurection, He continued to guide the Apostles through revelation.
How interesting that nowhere is the authority to “bind and loose” mentioned.
In addition look at how “The rock” suddenly becomes “Revelation” instead of “Peter”. 🤷

Next we deal with the “great apostacy”

“With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again.”

"Other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The apostles were killed, and priesthood authority - including the keys to direct and recieve revelation for the Church - was taken from earth.

O my. What a lovely mess this makes. First of all, since the “Keys were lost” with the apostles, about 100 AD. It means that teh entire canon of the Bible is null and void. Actually one of the fellas put the apostacy at between 80 and 400 AD. So that means that the Mormons cannot rely on the Bible even for their faith in Christ’s resurrection as recorded therein by an apostate Church.
Another thing that springs to mind is the idea of losing authority with the death of the apostles. Since Jesus KNEW HE wasn’t returning during the Apostles lifetimes, why would He allow such a thing. Of course He didn’t. The Authority of the Church is such that the Apostles (ordained by the Church) are not dead. They live on through the apostolic succession.

Anyway. I thought I’d share a bit of this.
It will help if they come around again.

Peace
James
 
Subrosa said:
Hi all and God bless,

I also am having a present day experience with a couple of very polite Mormon missionaries. They are from California.

I met them at the library (where I read CAF!) while they were on the internet, too. I introduced myself, they did likewise.

I asked if they would like to go out for lunch, so we went Wednesday (2 days ago). The handed me a Book of Mormon and a pamphlet that outlined thier version of Christian history. I started thumbing through it and when I got to the Great Apostacy (where the church sort of fell off the earth after the Apostles died), I said it was biblically impossible for this to happen.

I then cited Mt 16:18 - “and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it,” and John 16, Jesus speech on the Coming of the Advocate. I asked them if they really believed that Jesus would lie about these promises and abandon His church?

We spoke about the passages for a while and they said no, Jesus would not break His promise, but, quite frankly, they seemed to pass it off. I planted a seed anyway.

Anyhow, they will be coming to Mass on Sunday, in return I will be attending one of thier church services. A fair trade, I think. I also invited them to our parish scripture study, and they actually came last night! They may be attending for the ten week course. We’ll see what happens.

Sub
Click to expand...
Praise God!!
I really didn’t think they would be allowed to attend a catholic Bible Study.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Just spent a very pleasent hour with a couple of Mormon Missionaries and wanted to just say thanks to CAF. The time I’ve spent here was instrumental. CAF gave me much good information. and the Holy Spirit gave me the ability to express myself clearly.

I did not really allow them to do much preaching to us, instead I kept the conversation focused primarily on one of authority.
I explained to them how I had been away from the Church and had come back a couple of years ago. I explained that the issue of the Church’s authority was the real clinchure for me.
The conversation then became a question of how and why one accepts the Bible, without using the Bible as proof. Naturally it is because of the authority of the Church that we accept the Bible. How can one declare the Bible innerrant when different Bibles have different numbers of books? And, of course they use a truncated bible.
Anyway, it really revolved around the idea that:
  1. Without proper Authority,** (they gave a date of between 80 and 400 for the apostacy**) the Church could not have put togather a trustworthy canon.
  2. Even is the canon is trustworthy, if the Church failed at any point then Jesus lied and we can disregard the entire bible as being suspect.
We also addressed the issue of authority in Jesus instruction to the disciples in Matthew 18 15-18, "… Tell it to the Church, and I prodded them rather strongly as to which Church?

I basically told them I would not consider the Book of Mormon simply because I cannot justify the book because I cannot justify it’s authority.

Actually I’m still thinking of points I could have given them to consider.

I must say that they were most polite and pleasant, even though I can become pretty hyper. They listened and left one small pamphlet. I’m sure I didn’t convert anyone but hopefully gave them a bit to consider.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
That also doesn’t make sense. Apostasy is instant and not a gradual process.
 
thistle said:
That also doesn’t make sense. Apostasy is instant and not a gradual process.
Click to expand...
I think that they basically felt that it accorred “something in that range” rather an a gradual thing. However, according to the pamphlet they left with me, revelation and the valid priesthood were withdrawn at the time of the death of the last apostle.
So, by using this analogy, it would be safe to say that once Joseph Smith’s direct disciples died, the valid priesthood would be withdrawn from the Mormon Church.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.😃

Oh by the way, I did also share with them this website address. So perhaps they will come here and discuss thse things with us.

Peace
James
 
Subrosa said:
Hi all and God bless,

I also am having a present day experience with a couple of very polite Mormon missionaries. They are from California.

I met them at the library (where I read CAF!) while they were on the internet, too. I introduced myself, they did likewise.

I asked if they would like to go out for lunch, so we went Wednesday (2 days ago). The handed me a Book of Mormon and a pamphlet that outlined thier version of Christian history. I started thumbing through it and when I got to the Great Apostacy (where the church sort of fell off the earth after the Apostles died), I said it was biblically impossible for this to happen.

I then cited Mt 16:18 - “and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it,” and John 16, Jesus speech on the Coming of the Advocate. I asked them if they really believed that Jesus would lie about these promises and abandon His church?

We spoke about the passages for a while and they said no, Jesus would not break His promise, but, quite frankly, they seemed to pass it off. I planted a seed anyway.

Anyhow, they will be coming to Mass on Sunday, in return I will be attending one of thier church services. A fair trade, I think. I also invited them to our parish scripture study, and they actually came last night! They may be attending for the ten week course. We’ll see what happens.

Sub
Click to expand...
Just to touch base sub,
I hope you’ll share their impressions of the mass as well as yours of their service. I really don’t know anything about their liturgy.

I’m starting to put down some of my thoughts on the issue of the Apostasy. One thing that struck me about the idea of the Priesthood “dying” with the Apostles. It’s kind of visual so let’s see if I can explain it.
Draw a circle at the top of a page and label it “C” for Christ. The draw a circle under that one and lable it either as “A” of apostle or “P” for profit (since they think in terms of JS as being a prophet.). Now below and to one side make a another circle and label it with “D” for disciple or “B” for believer.
Now that we have the three circles, draw a line between the “C” circle and the “A” circle and label it teach. Draw another, heavier line and label it “Holy Spirit” (different colors woudl be good too). Draw a “teach” line between Circle “A” and circle “D”.
Now explain to your Mormon Friends that:
The Apostle is teaching the Disciple and the Disciple has been baptized. The apostle is going to appoint the Disciple Bishop and lays His hands upon Him that he recieve the commision and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. (Note this is what the mormons do right after someone is baptized. They lay on hands to invoke the Holy Spirit)
Ask them this question:
When Christ sends the holy Spirit upon the Disciple, how will the line go? Will it be from Christ directly to the Disciple or from the Apostle to the Disciple?

Assuming they say it comes directly from Christ to the Disicple, ask them how it is then that authority died with the Apostles since the source of the holy Spirit is the same?

If they surprise you and say it comes from the Apostle, then they are saying that the chain is broken with the death of the apostle. Then ask how they can claim a valid Priesthood since their chain is just as broken as the origianl Church. None of the original, first generation Mormons are still alive therefore the Chain of Priesthood is broken.

Or

To use an electrical analogy, is the Apostle an “extension cord” of God’s Holy Spirit to the individual, or is the Apostle like an electrician who plugs the individual directly into God’s Holy Spirit. If he were an extension cord, then the connection would indeed be severed upon the “extension cord’s” death, but if he is the electrician, then the connection is not severed regardless of what happens to the elctrician afterwards and God’s protection continues in His Church.

This is an important point to be considered when discussing the “Great Apostasy”. For according to the Mormon Pamphlet “The Restoration”, the “Priesthood” in the Catholic Church was removed upon the death of the Apostles. Yet we know that the Apostles did the same “laying on of hands” for persons, including priests and bishops, to receive the Holy Spirit as the Mormons do. So if the Mormons are able to do this and thus infuse and Strengthen God’s Spirit in the next generation, why is this same power denied to Christ’s first Apostles and their Successors?

Hope I explained that OK.

Peace
James
 
This is all very cool. Thanks to the Mormons, I am coming to the Catholic Church! If it weren’t for those missionaries coming to my door 6 yrs ago, and questioning God’ authority on earth and claiming the apostasy, etc, I never would’ve looked in to Church history. I never would’ve read the Early Church Fathers, I never would’ve read 1 Clement of Rome letter to the Corinthians Ch 41-45 that “wow’d” me into considering the Catholic Church. Authority meant nothing to me as a Protestant. When I read Clement, my eyes were opened. LDS claim that the authority died w/the apostles because they did not call any more apostles, and that only apostles have authority to lead God’s church, not bishops. They say God re-established the apostleship through Joseph Smith and called apostles from then on in the LDS church. They continue to call their president/prophet and his team
apostles.Anyway, reading 1 Clement showed me that the disciples didchoose successors knowing they’d die. That told me that those successors were legit. As a Protestant, the whole idea of church authority was foreign. We believe that the authority is w/each individual since we are the priesthood of believers. But that doesn’t work out too well when each individual thinks something different. Someone’s got to be in charge. I regret no mormons have come back since my last encounter w/them prior to realizing this. If they do, I’ll be sure to point out these early church fathers and 1 Clement. I did tell me LDS friend about it, but she didn’t have a response.
 
mesl4 said:
This is all very cool. Thanks to the Mormons, I am coming to the Catholic Church! If it weren’t for those missionaries coming to my door 6 yrs ago, and questioning God’ authority on earth and claiming the apostasy, etc, I never would’ve looked in to Church history. I never would’ve read the Early Church Fathers, I never would’ve read 1 Clement of Rome letter to the Corinthians Ch 41-45 that “wow’d” me into considering the Catholic Church. Authority meant nothing to me as a Protestant. When I read Clement, my eyes were opened. LDS claim that the authority died w/the apostles because they did not call any more apostles, and that only apostles have authority to lead God’s church, not bishops. They say God re-established the apostleship through Joseph Smith and called apostles from then on in the LDS church. They continue to call their president/prophet and his team
apostles.Anyway, reading 1 Clement showed me that the disciples didchoose successors knowing they’d die. That told me that those successors were legit. As a Protestant, the whole idea of church authority was foreign. We believe that the authority is w/each individual since we are the priesthood of believers. But that doesn’t work out too well when each individual thinks something different. Someone’s got to be in charge. I regret no mormons have come back since my last encounter w/them prior to realizing this. If they do, I’ll be sure to point out these early church fathers and 1 Clement. I did tell me LDS friend about it, but she didn’t have a response.
Click to expand...
Praise God!!
Thank you for your wonderful testimony.
It’s interesting that you mention that the apostles did not call any more apostles. It just goes to show how terminology can become a stumbling block.
Of course it is also interesting that, in their own liturature, Joseph Smith relates that it was by the laying on of hands from Peter, James, and John that he recieved the “Higher Priesthood”. So while the LDS accepts that they are legitimate successors through the laying on of hands, they deny that the Catholic Bishops are legitimate through the same laying on of hands.

Peace
James
 
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