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Cat_Herder
Guest
Actually, Jesus was open to Jews, Samaritans (Jn 4) and pagans (Mt 8) alike. The Catholic Church has always been the same way. Look at Mother Teresa. She regularly served Hindu and Muslim children.
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Jerusha
Guest
Given the fact that many of the poor are so because of bad decisions. To assume that they are so, however, is contrary to Christian teachings.
To extort a false confession of faith in exchange for food, etc, is EXTREMELY PROBLEMATIC.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Right, this is where I am siding with Catholicism against LDS.
Where I am siding with LDS against (modern) Catholicism is that the LDS policy inherently pairs moral teaching and material aid. Maybe it goes too far but, nevertheless, it is there.
It is this moral pairing that is torn asunder by the modern welfare state, which the Catholic Church has very often partnered with.
What we also see from LDS is tithing which seems oppressive until you compare it with tax rates that go to support the welfare state. I’d quite happily subscribe to “10% of your income for the rest of your life” as an alternative to the taxes I pay. (Yes, I know that taxes pay for some general welfare items like roads and national defense but these are becoming an ever smaller portion of budgets.)
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
No such assumption is necessary, though. Obviously individual situations vary.
Even the LDS policy, which we all agree is very strict, doesn’t assume this. It only requires LDS membership, i.e. a declaration of an intent to follow LDS teaching. A poor person could lie or he could be sincere but fail and he would still get the material aid.
However, it is worth pointing out that charity does provide a place for human judgement. You can judge for yourself whether your unemployed brother is making enough of an effort to find a job while he lives in your house.
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Marie5890
Guest
I wouldnt assume that you are making the right observation about that.
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Marie5890
Guest
When Our Lord was talking about the poor and the oppressed, He never qualified it.
Nor did He qualify who exactly our neighbor was.
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Jerusha
Guest
What if that person is of such a level of moral integrity that they would refuse to falsely convert for food, and rejects Mormonism’s non-Christian theology? Even if that person’s lifestyle exemplifies most aspects of LDS’s public image? :coffeeread:
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Coercion is not moral.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Again, I’m not defending the specific LDS policy, I’m just pointing out that it is not absurd.
However, I would like to hear someone explain why welfare should be free of moral, even religious instruction.
In the Great Depression it was very commonplace for soup kitchens to include a religious sermon. You certainly didn’t have to join their church or even agree to abide by what was said, only to listen as you slurped down your meal.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Is that not the nature of the taxation that supports the modern welfare state including much of Catholic charity work?
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Marie5890
Guest
One of the 20th century’s most brilliant and acclaimed theologians
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
Quotes from Deus Caritas Est
The unbreakable bond between love of God and love of neighbor is emphasized. One is so closely connected to the other that to say that we love God becomes a lie if we are closed to our neighbor or hate him altogether. Saint John’s words should rather be interpreted to mean that love of neighbor is a path that leads to the encounter with God, and that closing our eyes to our neighbor also blinds us to God.
As the years went by and the Church spread further afield, the exercise of charity became established as one of her essential activities, along with the administration of the sacraments and the proclamation of the word: love for widows and orphans, prisoners, and the sick and needy of every kind, is as essential to her as the ministry of the sacraments and preaching of the Gospel. The Church cannot neglect the service of charity any more than she can neglect the Sacraments and the Word.
For the Church, charity is not a kind of welfare activity which could equally well be left to others, but is a part of her nature, an indispensable expression of her very being.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
Quotes from Deus Caritas Est
The unbreakable bond between love of God and love of neighbor is emphasized. One is so closely connected to the other that to say that we love God becomes a lie if we are closed to our neighbor or hate him altogether. Saint John’s words should rather be interpreted to mean that love of neighbor is a path that leads to the encounter with God, and that closing our eyes to our neighbor also blinds us to God.
As the years went by and the Church spread further afield, the exercise of charity became established as one of her essential activities, along with the administration of the sacraments and the proclamation of the word: love for widows and orphans, prisoners, and the sick and needy of every kind, is as essential to her as the ministry of the sacraments and preaching of the Gospel. The Church cannot neglect the service of charity any more than she can neglect the Sacraments and the Word.
For the Church, charity is not a kind of welfare activity which could equally well be left to others, but is a part of her nature, an indispensable expression of her very being.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
That’s the nature of Caesar, i.e. civil government, but we are not discussing Caesar. We are talking about God. (President Obama recently confused the two when he applied Luke 12:48 to the government when Jesus was there referring to God.)
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
The welfare state (not to mention Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid) is an enterprise of civil government. Much of Catholic charitable work is on behalf of civil government using funds collected by civil taxes (both state and federal).
That is the nature, therefore, of much Catholic charitable activity.
So, yes, we are discussing Caesar.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Good stuff, to be sure, but it really doesn’t get to the issue here. Nobody is suggesting that the Church neglect the service of charity. The question is how that service of charity is best accomplished.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Caesar uses coercion to get taxes, of course, but no coercion is used in terms of the bid process for which subcontractors (charitable or otherwise) bid for grants. On the contrary, Catholic organizations from such grants.exclude
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Jerusha
Guest
We have answered that-- in a non-discriminatory fashion. We will show them that we are Christians by our love. Very simple.
The most effective witnessing is done by what we do, rather than what we say.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Then you have only answered the least interesting aspect of the question.We have answered that-- in a non-discriminatory fashion. We will show them that we are Christians by our love. Very simple.
But if that is what satisfies you, go in peace.
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Marie5890
Guest
The LDS way isnt the answer…
All those Latin Americans who joined to get access to the welfare system never really stayed.
Retention of those “converts” was beyond pathetic.
It was all an incredibly phoney venture. I knew many RM (returned missionaries) who served in those parts of the world were very honest about what it was like when they talked about it.
But they had baptismal goals (read that as quotas) to meet
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Promissory notes, quotas, deadlines… and they call that “seminary?” Sounds like b-school to me.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
You are correct on all points but missing the forest of the trees.
Caesar uses coercion to collect taxes. Many Catholic charities have, in modern times, subcontracted with the state to provide service paid from funds obtained by such coercion. Caesar is now, in many cases, excluding the Church from such participation. (It’s not at all clear why that should be considered coercion so much as simply changing the rules.)
By comparison, the LDS does to rely on funding from taxes but rather from member tithes.
It remains to be seen how Catholic charities will respond to this situation. But one obvious solution would be for Catholics to fund Catholic charities from donations, alone.
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