Mormonism - A Catholic Perspective

[seekdatruth]

I find it odd that you say this. I am LDS and my love and respect for the Catholic Church is immense.

Welcome, tortdog!
Please note the comment was about the denomination, not individuals. I’ve come to understand this difference here myself. The statement, "I’ve known [insert number] Catholics or LDS who were [insert description], so that must mean their denomination is evil, doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
You will find that I, and some others, feel a certain sense of concern for the spread of the LDS Church and how many attacks of the Catholic Church are resulting from it. There is a claim that LDS are tolerant of other religions, yet some of the LDS teachings and personal experiences of Catholics say otherwise. When any denomination or group becomes a majority, there is a potential for the abuse of power, as I know all too well in my location in a town in the SW where it’s be LDS or be an outcast, and sometimes even persecuted. (I don’t even know what happened to wine in our sacrament, no one will say, but i suspect it’s because LDS have a problem with it, so we must change for their sake!?)
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church certainly does **not **have an innocent past in the area of abuse of power–to put it lightly–yet even the Popes have made statements of tolerance of other religions in modern times. So even though you may see a few who subscribe to the “Be Catholic or Burn” theology, not all of us feel that way, and our doctrine doesn’t really teach that.

I’m curious, what do you like about the Catholic Church?

 

[rinnie]

Had to be Mormon or Catholic because they had a BUNCH of kids . . .

good one!

 

[tortdog]

You will find that I, and some others, feel a certain sense of concern for the spread of the LDS Church and how many attacks of the Catholic Church are resulting from it.

That would bother me if the attacks arose from the LDS Church, as opposed to a reaction by the anti-Mormons who find another church to be anti about. I know in the past that prominent LDS leaders believed that the Catholic Church was truly an abomination. But recent leaders have cut that off. And in fact, I have not heard any comment from the pulpit regarding something negative about the Catholic Church (though I’m sure there are still some older members who parrot the old views of a past era).

There is a claim that LDS are tolerant of other religions, yet some of the LDS teachings and personal experiences of Catholics say otherwise. When any denomination or group becomes a majority, there is a potential for the abuse of power, as I know all too well in my location in a town in the SW where it’s be LDS or be an outcast, and sometimes even persecuted. (I don’t even know what happened to wine in our sacrament, no one will say, but i suspect it’s because LDS have a problem with it, so we must change for their sake!?)

I would certainly believe that. But I think that is more an issue of a religion becoming the majority than anything particular to the LDS Church. Trust me, I have stories I could share regarding some Catholics in Brazil where 98% of Brazilians used to be Catholic. I think that is a nature more of man, than a church philosophy (at least in these modern days).

Currently, the Russian Orthodox Church is doing all that it can to sideline other churches, including illegal employment discrimination. But I digress.

So even though you may see a few who subscribe to the “Be Catholic or Burn” theology, not all of us feel that way, and our doctrine doesn’t really teach that.

I’m thinking that’s happening a lot with the LDS Church as well.

I’m curious, what do you like about the Catholic Church?

That the RC Church stands for what it thinks is right, no matter what public opinion says. It stands being the important of priesthood authority. It doesn’t countenance schisms and breakoffs and a “pick what you want to obey” type of philosophy. It also emphasizes the importance of obedience to God’s law as well as recognizing that without Christ’s grace we would all fall short. I love the manner of worship via music as well. I love the beautiful monuments it has erected in the name of God.

It has a lot to offer.

 

[tortdog]

Here is what kill me, How can anyone consider themself a Christian, and then follow a leader who breaks one of the ten commandments

Well, some are saying that Abraham broke one of the ten commandments (but I disagree).

I think you are suggesting how could a Christian follow a leader who violates the law of chastity, committing adultery. First, we know that the people of Israel were expected to follow David, though he broke the law. Second, we know that the people were supposed to follow Peter though he denied the Lord.

But more to the point, you seem to conclude that marriage to more than one wife is a violation of the law of chastity. I don’t think that’s true. Adultery consisted of extramarital relations. It doesn’t say anything about one man and one wife. And certainly the patriarchs practiced it without being condemned by God for it.

So I don’t think it is quite as simple as you suggest.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Well, some are saying that Abraham broke one of the ten commandments (but I disagree).

I think you are suggesting how could a Christian follow a leader who violates the law of chastity, committing adultery. First, we know that the people of Israel were expected to follow David, though he broke the law. Second, we know that the people were supposed to follow Peter though he denied the Lord.

But more to the point, you seem to conclude that marriage to more than one wife is a violation of the law of chastity. I don’t think that’s true. Adultery consisted of extramarital relations. It doesn’t say anything about one man and one wife. And certainly the patriarchs practiced it without being condemned by God for it.

Actually, the Bible says that marriage to more than one woman is an abomination in God’s eyes. The Bible tells us that God warned the chosen people not to be like the pagans. And of course you know that Jesus says that marriage was to be (from the beginning) between one man and one woman. He even said that divorce was only allowed by Moses because of the “hardness of hearts”.

I have also heard arguements presented that in the early Biblical days, should a person turn his allegiance from the one true God, that was what was considered “adultery”.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Had to be Mormon or Catholic because they had a BUNCH of kids . . .

Farmers had alot of kids to till the land. Children are a blessing and blessed is the man who has his quiver full.Also they did not believe in abortion or birth control and abortions goes way back,I can get you some dates on it if you want?God Bless you. Nancy

 

[seekdatruth]

Well, some are saying that Abraham broke one of the ten commandments (but I disagree).

I think you are suggesting how could a Christian follow a leader who violates the law of chastity, committing adultery. First, we know that the people of Israel were expected to follow David, though he broke the law. Second, we know that the people were supposed to follow Peter though he denied the Lord.

But more to the point, you seem to conclude that marriage to more than one wife is a violation of the law of chastity. I don’t think that’s true. Adultery consisted of extramarital relations. It doesn’t say anything about one man and one wife. And certainly the patriarchs practiced it without being condemned by God for it.

So I don’t think it is quite as simple as you suggest.

Interesting…I have a copy of the BOM, and when I checked the index for “marriage”, it said “Jacob denounces plurality of wives and concubines” and references Jacob 3:5 “Behold, the Lamanites, whom you hate because…are more righteous than you for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father–that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should ahve none, and there should be no whoredoms committed among them.”
Now, I’m not good at translating the English used in the KJV, but wouldn’t the index to the BOM be the interpretation of LDS? Otherwise, why would they put that in there?

 

[seekdatruth]

But I think that is more an issue of a religion becoming the majority than anything particular to the LDS Church.

Yet Joseph Smith himself claimed that the Catholic Church is an “abomination”. Now I predict your counter response will be, “But that was long ago and we don’t believe that now.” Well then why is it that so much of the BOM is now considered “Old School” of thought, yet it is promoted with great vigor to believers and non-believers alike?
It’s not just “old-timers” thinking that way either, I hear Catholic-bashing from young and old alike.

Trust me, I have stories I could share regarding some Catholics in Brazil where 98% of Brazilians used to be Catholic. I think that is a nature more of man, than a church philosophy (at least in these modern days).

Yeah, that was the old days, but Scripture never supported many of the things Catholics did in the past, and so it just goes that as people as a whole progress in maturity and knowledge we no longer tolerate behaviors that were once the norm, such as incest, child labor, violence, slavery, and polygamy, etc. There are countries that are still behind, but are their actions any more acceptable to us? Joseph Smith was in a country where it was well-known that polygamy is something people just don’t morally do anymore, even then.
I find it unusual that you openly admit that polygamy was in fact allowed by Mormons in the 19th century, and that it is still accepted today, just not practiced for fear of secular laws. Most LDS on here and that I meet in RL, try to skirt around it or try to claim it never happened or is no longer acceptable. My ex-LDS husband denied it repeatedly until I pulled out his own copy of the D&C and showed him. He was completely dumb-founded. He’d had no idea that was in there.

 

[seekdatruth]

Now, I’m not good at translating the English used in the KJV, but wouldn’t the index to the BOM be the interpretation of LDS? Otherwise, why would they put that in there?

Let me clairify: I meant the TYPE of English used in the KJV. Jacob is in the BOM, it’s just similarly written in older-style English, which is hard for people to understand fully in modern times.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Welcome, tortdog!
Please note the comment was about the denomination, not individuals. I’ve come to understand this difference here myself. The statement, "I’ve known [insert number] Catholics or LDS who were [insert description], so that must mean their denomination is evil, doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
You will find that I, and some others, feel a certain sense of concern for the spread of the LDS Church and how many attacks of the Catholic Church are resulting from it. There is a claim that LDS are tolerant of other religions, yet some of the LDS teachings and personal experiences of Catholics say otherwise. When any denomination or group becomes a majority, there is a potential for the abuse of power, as I know all too well in my location in a town in the SW where it’s be LDS or be an outcast, and sometimes even persecuted. (I don’t even know what happened to wine in our sacrament, no one will say, but i suspect it’s because LDS have a problem with it, so we must change for their sake!?)
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church certainly does **not **have an innocent past in the area of abuse of power–to put it lightly–yet even the Popes have made statements of tolerance of other religions in modern times. So even though you may see a few who subscribe to the “Be Catholic or Burn” theology, not all of us feel that way, and our doctrine doesn’t really teach that.

I’m curious, what do you like about the Catholic Church?

Hi I was born into Catholic, and attended Catholic schools most of my life.I drifted away because I was young and was curious about alot of things.Some people make mistakes others never do.What can I say? My family all of them are Catholic,and I’m a drifter still learning,I do love all people and pray for all denominations,for God wants all to come into his holy kingdom. Like him I hate the sin but love the sinner,if we say we haven’t sinned we call God a lier and his death would have been in vain.But we are all sinners saved by grace,Peaise God for his precious gift he gave us all if we believe,trust and obay.In his love Nancy John 3:16

 

[tortdog]

Interesting…I have a copy of the BOM, and when I checked the index for “marriage”, it said “Jacob denounces plurality of wives and concubines” and references Jacob 3:5 “Behold, the Lamanites, whom you hate because…are more righteous than you for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father–that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should ahve none, and there should be no whoredoms committed among them.”
Now, I’m not good at translating the English used in the KJV, but wouldn’t the index to the BOM be the interpretation of LDS? Otherwise, why would they put that in there?

And the current leaders of the LDS Church agree with the Book of Mormon, because God has told the LDS Church to end polygamy.

 

[tortdog]

Yet Joseph Smith himself claimed that the Catholic Church is an “abomination”. Now I predict your counter response will be, “But that was long ago and we don’t believe that now.” Well then why is it that so much of the BOM is now considered “Old School” of thought, yet it is promoted with great vigor to believers and non-believers alike?

I think that the perspective has changed. While certainly God abhors evil, and anything unclean, we know that God loves all his children. So some justify treating other like ****, and forget the love part. I think that LDS leaders in the past were more willing to remember the “everything is evil and God abhors it” than the “love one another” and be thankful for the good works that other churches engage in.

It’s about tolerance, in my view, not doctrine.

I find it unusual that you openly admit that polygamy was in fact allowed by Mormons in the 19th century, and that it is still accepted today, just not practiced for fear of secular laws.

I didn’t say that. The LDS Church stopped because God commanded it. The LDS Church does not support polygamy in ANY country to my knowledge, regardless of the laws.

Most LDS on here and that I meet in RL, try to skirt around it or try to claim it never happened or is no longer acceptable. My ex-LDS husband denied it repeatedly until I pulled out his own copy of the D&C and showed him. He was completely dumb-founded. He’d had no idea that was in there.

Well, I won’t. So dumbfound me.

 

[seekdatruth]

I

I didn’t say that. The LDS Church stopped because God commanded it.

No, they stopped because of the law of the land, and because they decided it was better to live in peace then repeatedly get thrown in jail. If you read the “Official Declarations” at the end of the D&C, then President Woodruff is saying cease because of the law of the land, but no where did he say it was a sin. D&C contradicts Jacob in 132:61-66 on the basis of OT fathers doing it, so Mormons should too, excuse. People call themselves "fundamentalist LDS because they go by what they believe are the “fundamental beliefs”, therefore they practice polygamy. You say it is not a sin, yet the BOM says it IS. My point is that the LDS Church has their OWN testament, from which they pick and choose what parts to believe, and have doctrines that contradict it.

IThe LDS Church does not support polygamy in ANY country to my knowledge."

I didn’t say that. I said that early LDS Church fathers’ allowance of polygamy came at a time (19th century) and a place (USA) when they would have known full well that it was not acceptable, yet they did anyway; and further, used an old excuse which Jesus in the NT, and even in the BOM, said was no longer valid, because we know better. It was because of Adam and Eve’s KNOWLEDGE of sin that they were able to sin. Before, they had been innocent, and therefore couldn’t really sin. Now that legacy becomes our “original sin” because we are aware of it.

Well, I won’t. So dumbfound me.

 

[rinnie]

Well, some are saying that Abraham broke one of the ten commandments (but I disagree).

I think you are suggesting how could a Christian follow a leader who violates the law of chastity, committing adultery. First, we know that the people of Israel were expected to follow David, though he broke the law. Second, we know that the people were supposed to follow Peter though he denied the Lord.

But more to the point, you seem to conclude that marriage to more than one wife is a violation of the law of chastity. I don’t think that’s true. Adultery consisted of extramarital relations. It doesn’t say anything about one man and one wife. And certainly the patriarchs practiced it without being condemned by God for it.

So I don’t think it is quite as simple as you suggest.

While I appreciate your view, I think we can still disagree and not fight. I sure hope so anyway. But here is my Point, we follow Jesus Christ, There is alot in the OT that we were not real clear on.

Then came Jesus Christ and he cleared things up quite well. He said no. he even went as far to say do not even lust over another man or women. So what I guess I am saying is ok, if you are Jewish lets say, and just go by the OT.things will be different. But they do claim to follow Jesus CHrist do they not? And they do claim to be a Christian Correct?

 

[seekdatruth]

Well, I won’t. So dumbfound me.

Read the BOM and D&C, I mean really read it. Don’t allow any smoke and mirrors cloud your mind, don’t ask an elder or bishop what it means, just ask God to help you, and read the words. If you still feel the LDS Church is Truth, well then that’s your prerogative. I’m not in the business of collecting souls for any side. I’m just disturbed when people are mislead by what I see as false. If you prefer to not use any kind of your own judgment to discern God’s Truth, because that’s what you were taught, well then you are caught in that trap, and I’m sorry. God Bless!

 

[seekdatruth]

While I appreciate your view, I think we can still disagree and not fight.

I agree.

Even Jews don’t practice polygamy, but I agree with what you’re saying here.

[/QUOTE]

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;4567346:

While I appreciate your view, I think we can still disagree and not fight.

I agree.

You are right, I was hoping someone other than myself would bring that up. I understand in the OT there is alot unclear. But that is why we needed Jesus. And that is why we need Jesus today to save us. That is why IMO we need the Church. Jesus knew we could not do this alone. That is why he left us the Church.

 

[rinnie]

I find it odd that you say this. I am LDS and my love and respect for the Catholic Church is immense.

That is wonderful. God Bless you. But sad to say Not all feel that way.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I find it odd that you say this. I am LDS and my love and respect for the Catholic Church is immense.

Dear Tortdog,I love the mormon people and my grandaughter is in Utah and joined their church,now I love her also but it dosn’t mean I agree with what she is doing,for I studied with them this year and I know first hand there book is blasphmy,there is no three gods in the trinity,and they study more about joseph smith then Christ they believe a lie,a falsehood brought to them by a mason and out of the land of Egypt,they are a slave to what the lord sent Moses to deliver them from.Alma,Nehi,Nephi,Laminites,Moroni most of those names were made up and Nep,and Ne,are names for the grand mason,names they use to worship satan in their rituals,their roots are of satan and smiths magick-stones,are taken form wichcraft,and if you need more I can supply it because I do care about you,my grandaughter,and all the beautiful mormons I met that were born into this and dont know anything else. Check out your Roots not just your geneology,but your church roots and all the lies the masons have taught,since before joseph smith.You know how to use the computer so look up magick,and see how your church is set up and why they tell you not to read,or listen to anything negative,their afraid you’ll find out the truth.God bless you in your search,and may peace be in your heart for what I have told you was the truth,in the name of Christ I give you true witness:Nancy

 

[rinnie]

Dear Tortdog,I love the mormon people and my grandaughter is in Utah and joined their church,now I love her also but it dosn’t mean I agree with what she is doing,for I studied with them this year and I know first hand there book is blasphmy,there is no three gods in the trinity,and they study more about joseph smith then Christ they believe a lie,a falsehood brought to them by a mason and out of the land of Egypt,they are a slave to what the lord sent Moses to deliver them from.Alma,Nehi,Nephi,Laminites,Moroni most of those names were made up and Nep,and Ne,are names for the grand mason,names they use to worship satan in their rituals,their roots are of satan and smiths magick-stones,are taken form wichcraft,and if you need more I can supply it because I do care about you,my grandaughter,and all the beautiful mormons I met that were born into this and dont know anything else. Check out your Roots not just your geneology,but your church roots and all the lies the masons have taught,since before joseph smith.You know how to use the computer so look up magick,and see how your church is set up and why they tell you not to read,or listen to anything negative,their afraid you’ll find out the truth.God bless you in your search,and may peace be in your heart for what I have told you was the truth,in the name of Christ I give you true witness:Nancy

God Bless you Nancy for being able to get you point across at such a beautiful way.