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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
What a wonderful blessing in your lives! Thank you for having shared this.
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What a wonderful blessing in your lives! Thank you for having shared this.
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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
The first paragraph presents an incorrect picture as far as the question that should be posed about a Latter-day Saint doctor and the mother about a decision that has to do with her health, the health of her womb for having other children later, and the known fact by case histories that the doctor is aware of and explains in counsel, that a baby would for sure have been either still born or would have miscarried under the “past generations” scenario with no modern medical technology available.
If LDS parents were told, “this baby if he/she survives will only live for a few minutes”, then every case I know about is that the parents would first ask “is there an operation that can save the baby’s life or increase that likelihood of saving their life?” and then “what is the likelihood that the baby will indeed live for a few minutes?” and if that likelihood is above 10% or 5% and the health of the mother for having other children is not at risk, then my experience is that Latter-day Saint parents would tell the doctor to do everything medically possible to keep the baby and have the baby live as long as medically possible, if even only for a few minutes past birth.
As far as late-stage cancer or other painful terminal illness, my mother died at age sixty-five from pancreatic cancer. We always hoped and prayed for a miracle of recovery, and the pain she endured was awful, but she communicated her love and gratitude to her family and friends all the way through the difficulties of her end of life period of time, and although she passed away in tremendous pain, she never questioned God’s timing or how He could allow such pain and suffering, nor did we.
But the kind of decision of those two kinds of cases, is completely a different decision in each case, with a dramatic level of differences and no sameness at all. The late-stage cancer decision is an “end-the-incredible-pain” decision and since we all have the Savior as the example of One who endured far more incredible pain than anyone who ever lived, then there is no “euthanasia” option decision to be made at all–we await God’s timing, and pray for less pain and for great endurance for the sufferer when it has become apparent that the prayed for miracle of recovery is not going to happen.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
But it’s not about what members you know have done or hypothetical doctors and patients
The LDS church specifically allows a member to abort a pregnancy where the child will die shortly after birth, even when the health of the mother is not at risk. Why?
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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
The wording is:
“when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion.”
That doesn’t say “die shortly after birth”, it says “will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth”.
It is the kind of case I already discussed, where in prior generations the baby would have either miscarried before the birth, or be still-born.
When babies are born in hospitals in the United States today, “extraordinary means” to keep a baby alive are “at the ready” if needed. Those modern medical technology life support systems used in the United States and other modern countries today to keep a baby alive are no different than similar modern medical technology used to keep another person of any age, including a person with a terminal illness in tremendous pain and on their “death bed” alive. That decision involving an elderly person or a cancer patient, and whether to use “extraordinary means” to preserve their life beyond what the body would naturally do, is a similar decision to the one you seem to think needs to be described with a word that scorns the doctor and the parent making that agonizing decision. Just because they are asked to pray about their decision does not make it any less agonizing.
Miscarriages and still births happen, and have happened throughout history unless you know something I don’t know–which means the same “blame game” would logically apply to the Master Physician, He who is truly omnipotent, in each of those millions of cases. Further, to reiterate, the decision about going to a doctor for prenatal care and having diagnostic examinations to check on the health of the baby, can be a decision where the expectant mother decides “no go” if she thinks she is going to be placed in the extremely uncomfortable position of being labeled or scorned if her doctor says all medical history points to the kind of decision that says in prior generations the baby would have miscarried or would not have survived birth at all–been still born.
This means that some babies who could otherwise be saved and could live, will not be diagnosed and will not be cared for with the medical care that is known and available, because of a potential decision by an expectant mother who is more worried about a label and being misjudged than about having an available diagnosis about the health and progress of her baby in her womb.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
My mother was in pain for years before she finally passed 2 months before our oldest was born. All that time we hoped and prayed, but we accepted that these things happen, did we question, yes and found that there are answers . Through those years the meaning of human suffering was a theme we came back to over and over as a family. For my siblings and me the most influential discussion on suffering was JPII’s apostolic letter Salvifici Doloris both my parents had other reference points that brought peace through out my mothers illness. All of this came up again as we watched dad suffer during the months leading up to his death. And like our mom he was at peace not only with his suffering, but also with his death. As Catholics we find in suffering, a most unlikely thing, a gift and an honor.
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ParkerD
Guest
RebeccaJ,
I notice that this thread still gets viewed so I have to assume I need to respond to your post, albeit reluctantly.
You presented an incorrect analogy.
Here is a better analogy:
If two villages are located by a cliff, and the toddlers and children in one village are known to wander to the edge of that cliff and fall off, then if the villagers of that village say “we will station an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff in case they fall” then that is the correct analogy, as compared with the villagers of the second village, who have learned from what God allowed them to learn by virtue of perception and study of case histories about the children who fell off the cliff and who weren’t miraculously spared by God. The villagers who have learned from experience and history, have wisely built a fence at the edge of the cliff, to save as many children as they can from falling off the cliff.
The fence is “learning from case histories”, and understanding that the twins case described in this thread is an example of a case history where a very difficult decision could be nonetheless made to save one child from otherwise the known outcome of two children falling off the edge of the cliff–certainly with the parents praying for a miracle (if the mother even had the tests done that found out the situation in her womb) but the case histories suggest that a miracle doesn’t happen every time. The fence is a wise step. Just because God didn’t place a fence at the edge of the cliff in the Creation, doesn’t mean humankind can’t learn to be wise enough to build the fence and dramatically increase the likelihood that there won’t be two still-births or two miscarriages.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Miscarriages and still births are not the willful choice of parents, abortion is.
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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
That was my point–that miscarriages and still births happen, and obviously are not the “willful choice of parents”–but does that make them the “willful choice of God” in the mind of the mother who chooses not to have medical care to the extent of checking on the well-being of her baby in her womb? What if God wants those particular parents to learn wisdom, and even learn to call on Him in mighty prayer wherein He answers, for them to be able to make a difficult decision through inspiration about applying the wisdom gained from extensive medical case histories and not just totally relying on a miracle to save both children when that miracle may not be the outcome and God may have wanted them to apply wisdom and save one of their children alive?
In the twins case presented (not the one about your children, since it appears you weren’t told that only one could survive and that if the other baby weren’t aborted then both would either miscarry or be still-born), then the mother or the parents were faced with the considerably difficult dilemma of “do we save one of these children as a known outcome from the case histories, or do we not learn from the case histories and just leave the outcome in the hands of God without applying the wisdom from medical case histories that are known and have been studied year after year and with case after case?”
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RebeccaJ
Guest
ParkerD, what I see is that you are advocating throwing one child off the cliff in order to save the other. There is a VAST difference between a child having an accident that cause injury or death, and taking a sharp instrument and cutting that child into pieces. It is obvious you continue to view the unborn as disposable.
It is clear you are unable to discern what constitutes a moral action. I hope your fellow Mormon, Romney, is better at it than you.
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ParkerD
Guest
RJ,
I view what you write toward me as being written toward Him who is known as the Healer, but who withheld healing in millions of cases. All those deaths of miscarried babies and still-born babies, in the millions, ought not to be viewed using the word “disposable”, it would seem to me. But your accusation goes right over my head, and I don’t take it personally at all because of the facts of actual human history and human development in the wombs of women.
I have never caused one miscarriage–not one–nor one abortion–not one–nor have even thought of counseling anyone to have one of the latter nor would I unless there were a twins case such as you presented as medical doctors having seen as the case for a woman, and in that kind of case I would have counseled to pray about it, go to the temple prayerfully about it, seek to know if God would in this case provide a miracle and the doctor’s counsel could be “ignored”, and hope that this would indeed be the answer to prayer.
We can’t successfully communicate about this subject, because of an unwillingness to acknowledge that there are indeed miscarriages and still births that do happen and that there are evidently some Catholic expectant mothers who do not have their baby in their womb examined through available medical means, particularly for twins, to check on their health progress.
There seems to be a significant mistrust of the medical world and of the intentions of gynecologists toward the health of babies who can survive birth and be well babies.
There also seems to be an unwillingness to believe that God expects humankind to study the human body and human development and gain medical knowledge than can help in the health of babies who actually do live and survive birth.
So, we differ profoundly on how we view what God expects of the medical progress that the world has been able to make through inventions that can either bless humankind, or can be ignored and just “trust God” and “let miracles happen if they happen”.
Peace to all readers, and Merry Christmas to all.
T
Telstar
Guest
Don’t count on it, Rebecca. He passed the gay marriage bill into law, instead of sending it back for another round of voting, while saying that he was giving the people of Massachusetts “what they deserve”.
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Telstar
Guest
So, you’re insinuating that you sit in the place of God on this issue, Parker? God is the only one that has any right to take a human life, because He’s the only one that can create one. Until you can create a human life out of thin air, you have no right to take one, and neither does anyone else. God has every right to do as He pleases and we have no right to question Him on anything that He does, nor to pass judgement on Him for what He does. You’re treading on dangerous ground if you think you can.
Your assumptions about the stupidity of Catholics amaze me, Parker. But, I suppose they really shouldn’t surprise me at all, after some of our previous conversations. What makes you think that Catholic women wouldn’t go to an OBGYN to be sure the baby is OK when they’re pregnant? Are LDS women the only ones smart enough to do that? Please, spare us your condescending attitude.
Only when they recommend killing a baby because they thought there might be some kind of a problem with him, or that he may be less than ‘perfect’. As my Dad used to say, “You know what ‘Thought’ did, don’t you?”.
There’s one huge difference that you keep ignoring, Parker, and that’s the difference between ‘human knowledge’ and actual wisdom. They should never be confused as being interchangeable, because even a man that has immense human knowledge can still only have the wisdom of a gnat. It doesn’t matter how many PHDs he has hanging on his wall. The only thing they’re worth to a man that lacks true wisdom, is for starting a fire.
It’s the difference between truly having faith in God, and not having faith in God, Parker. Catholics have faith in God’s good judgement, and we fully accept whatever He chooses to do as being His will, no matter what He decides to do. We won’t interfere with His decisions.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
ParkerD, you are not God, Who decides the hour of anyone’s death, including the unborn. “Oh well, they are going to die anyway” is a horrifying way to view life. YOU are going to die anyway.
As long as you can see no difference between a miscarriage and an abortion, I’m sure you will continue to think it is perfectly acceptable to ask your god if it is Ok to KILL the unborn. Be assured, that it is not God who is giving you any promptings that you should tell a Dr. to go ahead and cut an unborn child into pieces.
we cant successfully communicate as long as you are unable to discern that there is a world of difference betweem a miscarriage or still birth and an abortion.
You are purposely mischaracterizing what was said. There are many tests that can be performed to check the health of unborn, some have no purpose whatsoever but to determine whether or not the mother and/or father will continue with the pregnancy. If you view abortion as the taking of an innocent life, then there would be no reason to perform a test that exists for the purpose of determining whether or not to have an abortion.
There are other tests that seek to determine the health of an unborn child, in order to detect problems that can be addressed in order protect the life of the unborn and the mother. No one said anything about foregoing these types of tests. It is only in your apparently warped imagination that this occurs.
No ParkerD, there is an not a willingness to accept abortion as a “solution” because it is not a solution for anything. In a society where OB/Gyns push contraceptives and abortion, as “necessary”, caution is taken in what drs. recommend. This is just plain common sense. Doctors are not gods, who are set up by God to decide who livese or who dies.
It is apparent that this is what you think.
Oh come now, this is nothing more than extreme bias, bordering on bigotry. You would do well to study Catholic teaching, rather than applying your over reaching need to demonize Catholics in order to justify your desire to kill the unborn.
No doubt, we expect that God desires we don’t kill the innocent unborn, for any reason. I know your pragmatic moralism cant process this, but this is what it means to be truly moral. Circumstance does not change what is moral and what is not.
Medical technology can be a great blessing, but just because we can do something doesnt mean that we should. Saving the lives of people, healing the sick, is not going against God. The killing of innocent unborn children is.
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