Mormonism and Protestantism

[TexanKnight]

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while rejecting the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, believe that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, our Lord and Savior, one of the members of the Godhead, and most certainly is the Creator.

Now, that is not totally true. First, your god was once a sinful man. Next, Jesus is just one of many spirit children. Next, Jesus and Michael created the world. Michael then became Adam, Adam, according to Prophet BY, is our God.

Latter-day Saints believe that through the atoning sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ, we can become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17), participating in the same life that God lives, becoming gods.

That is a sweetening of the belief. There are many, many gods, your god is just among them. And if you do all you are supposed to do, you can be a god of your own planet as well.

For further understanding of the Latter-day Saint belief, perhaps these links will be helpful:
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml

Be careful, these links do not show the real doctrine nor does it teach the doctrine the LDS tries to hide to appear more mainstream.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Quickly, since I am about to leave:

You don’t even understand what you are talking about and your insult to Christianity and how you do it. And you are deeply unwilling not to want to understand why. We would just like you and mormons understand why. Your wrongness is in the relativism of divinity while Christianity rely in absolutisms.

Actually, I do understand what I am talking about, thank you.

…believe that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God
…relative to chair. The Son of God is not relative to the chair. He is the Word (as St.John said. I know he was not inspired as Joseph Smith, but he knew personally Jesus)

“Relative to chair”? I am not sure what you are talking about. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, and He is the Word. Also I am not sure where you got that John was not as inspired as Joseph Smith, however it certainly was not from a member of The Church of Jesus Christ.

…and most certainly is the Creator.
relative to our world. Is a creator is not the Creator.

No, Latter-day Saints believe that He is The Creator. We are not concerned with speculations.

**…that through the atoning sacrifice **
His sacrify is completely redemensionato to a much lesser degree. He sacrified Himself just to save human from a lesser degree of exaltation. From mormon sin is relative and not absolute. He made human going and will make humans downgrading from a 5 stars hotel to a trhree stars one.

Latter-day Saints believe that it is only through Christ’s atoning sacrifice that we can receive eternal life. Latter-day Saints believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ not only enables us to repent and be forgiven of our sins, but the atonement also makes possible the sacred ordinances and covenants we participate in.

…becoming gods this is the only point where mormonism became more absolute then Christianity. In Christianity the unity in the Son with God makes us Gods. There is no place for being gods separated from God. In separation from God we are in the same state that we are now. The fall.

I am not sure where you get that Latter-day Saints believe that we will be separate from God or that we become gods apart from God. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ believe that it is in unity with Jesus Christ, through His atonement, that we can be joint-heirs with Him, becoming gods. God will always be our God and Father, and it is only because of God and His grace that we can be heirs of Him. Whether we have the ability to create worlds or not in the afterlife, that does not mean that we will be separate from God our Father.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ do not believe that we become gods through any power of our own, but that it is only by God’s grace, and our accepting of His grace, demonstrated by continuous faith in Jesus Christ, continuous repentance, and following the Lord’s commandments. As you see from your writing: you first state only and then you add other things. It is strange. Only is only.

No, it is not strange. How do we receive God’s grace? It is by having faith in Christ, repenting of our sins, and following the commandments of our Lord and Savior. Faith and works go hand in hand.

If you do, mormons do everything, but everything Joeph Smith told you to do do you still need God’s Grace or is automatic. If it is automatic you don’t need His Grace.

If I have to talk mormonishcally, since Grace is also relativized, I would better state:
Grace is given if you hearn it.
It is a strange concept of Grace. It is more a reward.
Grace is what you get behond you beeing worthed or not. Jesus come as an act of Grace.
Infact He came for the unworthied sinners.

Latter-day Saints believe, as the Bible teaches, that Jesus Christ asks us to follow His commandments, and that eternal life is received through faith and following the Lord’s commandments. Grace is given if you follow Christ, His example, His teaches, His commandments.

 

[truthsave]

In none, I say none of your answer there is a willing to anwer and wanting to understand. You just want to justify yourself to yourself.
Maybe an ex mormon would like to step in since mormon attitude is extremely tiring.
Your attitude of not willing to focalize in the name of personal psycologycal surviving is tiring.

Even the simplest thing I said you pretend you didn’t understand. Christ is the Son of God relative to chair. For mormon we are sons of god as far as spirits.If this is true you are lying then.
He is really the Creator of the Universe?
I realize you are expecially not interested in mormon speculation. For mormon Christ is the creator of our world. If you didn’t know about it I am not responsable for your ignorance in mormon doctrine.
As separate gods from God… is in mormon doctrine. You can be spatially and temporally separathed by God the Father so… there is not a union. For you union with the father is a political union.
When you want to explain the sacrify of Christ after what I have written you are just repeting what you have said before showing you didn’t even grasp your theology stand point.
As far as caoncern Grace…again you are an empty repeater.
I am concerned about people like you wanting deliberatly misleading (even though I admit) unconsciously) other people.

If a put you a knife in your heart without knowing you are going to die, is certainly better morally then if I know you are going to die and you do nevertheless. But I am going to die in both cases.
Mormon cause souls to die in the name of good human behaviour.

I hope more and more people could be aware of this.
I hope christians will spread and defend christian message the same way you spread your way of thinking against christianity. You are just abusers.

I would not be politically correct because mormons are absolutely not politically correct when they knock at the door of a catholic or at an orthodox. They are just there to show them they are wrong. I am here to say you are wrong, misleading, confusing makers in the name of Christ and of the good, unrespetfull for other faiths (if not why you would try so hard with your missionary to convert people from their religion to your religion?) again in the name of Christ or better in the name of Joseph Smith.
A mormon world with probably a better world. There will be more respect, more unity, but better struggle all along his life for the truth then basking in the sun of lies with a smile in the face and a loving family with us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The first article I linked to addresses the Latter-day Saint understanding of this issue, hence why I linked to it.

…and?

It only repeats what you are saying, what every Mormon says. Jesus is a God, belonging to a fraternal group of three Gods.

Christians, Protestant and Catholic, worship the Holy Trinity, Who is not a fraternal association but GOD.
Mormons do not worship this fraternal group they call the “Godhead”. They worship one God who is one among many but believed to be the God over all these other gods.

Christians understand Jesus is the Creator because He is God.
Mormons have a creator named Jesus, who was given a creator task and authority to act in the name of a higher God.

Who we worship defines our beliefs, very distinctly and clearly, wouldn’t you say?

 

[LivingWaters7]

…and?

It only repeats what you are saying, what every Mormon says. Jesus is a God, belonging to a fraternal group of three Gods.

Christians, Protestant and Catholic, worship the Holy Trinity, Who is not a fraternal association but GOD.
Mormons do not worship this fraternal group they call the “Godhead”. They worship one God who is one among many but believed to be the God over all these other gods.

Christians understand Jesus is the Creator because He is God.
Mormons have a creator named Jesus, who was given a creator task and authority to act in the name of a higher God.

Who we worship defines our beliefs, very distinctly and clearly, wouldn’t you say?

I believe I already presented the reasoning behind why traditional Christians would not accept Latter-day Saints as Protestants or “Christian”, which we agreed on. My purpose in linking to the articles above was to further emphasize the Latter-day Saint perspective on the issues that I was responding to, namely, that we deny that Jesus Christ is the Creator, as well as our belief in exaltation. So yes, perhaps I was repeating what I was saying, for emphasis.

 

[LivingWaters7]

(For Mormon theology, I’m using this site (and subsequent links) for my source.)
(For orthodox Christian theology, I’m quoting the Nicene Creed.)

The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints use the words found in the language of Catholics(/Orthodox/Protestants), but define the words differently. It’s one thing to maintain those words for themselves during worship, because they understand their own definitions of the words. The problem, however, lies in when they use those words to communicate with orthodox Christianity, knowing that their will be a language barrier, allowing us to believe that Mormon theology at face value is only an extension of orthodox Christian theology, when it is in fact radically (meaning “to the roots”) different. That’s called deception. I don’t like being deceived.

No, it is not deception. In my experience, Latter-day Saints readily discuss the differences in our beliefs from traditional Christianity (especially since the basis for our existence is our belief in a restoration of primitive Christianity, as well as continuing revelation of Truth). When discussing the Godhead, for example, we readily discuss that we believe in three separate Personages who are united in purpose, will and love, instead of the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. We also readily state our belief that the Father is embodied. I know that I and many other Latter-day Saints discuss our differences in understanding certain theological terms and issues. I also know that this issue is not unique to LDS-traditional Christian dialogue, but can even be found within traditional Christian dialogue as well (as a simple Google search demonstrates). So perhaps everyone can be a little better at that.

Points where we can agree:

To orthodox Christianity: Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, a member of the Godhead, born of the Father before all ages God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial (one in Being, distinct Person, but of same essence) with the Father.
To Mormon theology: Christ is not with one substance with the Father but a separate Being, born of the Father and our Heavenly Mother (not the Virgin Mary of orthodox Christianity).

Latter-day Saints generally do not use terminology such as “consubstantial”/“substance”/“being” (in the specific way used by the traditional Trinity doctrine). Members of The Church of Jesus Christ believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God (noting here that we do not believe in a concept of “eternally begotten”, instead believing that Christ is the Firstborn Son of God and was begotten of the Father when He was born of the Virgin Mary), the second member of the Godhead, our divine Lord and Savior, etc.

To orthodox Christianity: Christ, by being consubstantial with the Father, was most certainly the Creator. As the Father is maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible, it was through Christ that all things were made.
To Mormon theology: Christ, by being a separate being from the Father, was the Creator of Earth. However, this Creation is NOT by the Father and through Son as in orthodoxy, but instead the Creator under the guidance of the Father, so that Christ is the “Jehovah” of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New.

What does “by the Father and through Son” mean in traditional Christianity? In Latter-day Saint Christianity, we believe that the Father is the Supreme Creator, and created through Jesus Christ, the Son (this belief is also found on LDS.org)

To orthodox Christianity: As God said on Mount Sinai: “I AM the Lord, your God. Thou shall not have other gods besides me.” Therefore, when the Psalms say we will be made “little less than the gods,” the Prophets of the Old Testament say we will “become gods,” Christ says that we will “become gods,” and St Athanasius writing that “God became man so that men might become gods,” we mean that through Christ’s Incarnation (God becoming man in the flesh), by partaking in the Covenant Christ established, we the partake in the Divine Nature of God, having our bodies glorified and made perfect after the Resurrection, so that we can forever worship perfectly in the Heavenly Liturgy of the Book of St John’s Revelations (or Apocalypse) for all Eternity.

To Mormon theology: After partaking in the Covenant established by Christ, those who are worthy to obtain the highest degree (out of three) within the Celestial Kingdom (the highest of the three Kingdoms of Glory) where, if not married on Earth in a Temple, then given an opportunity to have a Temple Marriage, a man becomes the lord of his own kingdom, much like the Heavenly Father and Mother is the lord and mother of their own kingdom, not necessarily “earth-like,” but most certainly his own newly established kingdom.

In Latter-day Saint theology, as children of God, we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. Through His atoning sacrifice, we can become gods by having faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the Holy Ghost, and entering into other covenants and ordinances such as the priesthood (for males), being endowed in the Lord’s house, the temple, and being sealed for eternity to one’s spouse. Essentially, we believe that the gift of exaltation is made possible by faithfully following the Lord’s commandments and entering into covenants with God.

 

[LivingWaters7]

In none, I say none of your answer there is a willing to anwer and wanting to understand. You just want to justify yourself to yourself.

No, I want to expound on Latter-day Saint belief from the perspective of a faithful, actual Latter-day Saint.

Even the simplest thing I said you pretend you didn’t understand. Christ is the Son of God relative to chair.

What does “relative to chair” mean? I have never heard that phrase used before.

For mormon we are sons of god as far as spirits.If this is true you are lying then.

I don’t believe that I have denied that Latter-day Saints believe that we are all spirit sons and daughters of God our Father, and that we lived with Him in what is called the pre-mortal existence.

He is really the Creator of the Universe?
I realize you are expecially not interested in mormon speculation. For mormon Christ is the creator of our world. If you didn’t know about it I am not responsable for your ignorance in mormon doctrine.

I am well aware of Latter-day Saint doctrine.

As separate gods from God… is in mormon doctrine. You can be spatially and temporally separathed by God the Father so… there is not a union. For you union with the father is a political union.

I am not sure what you mean by “political union”. Latter-day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons/Beings who are also united in purpose, love, will, and power. This unity is known as “the Godhead”, and Latter-day Saints also can refer to the Three being “one God” in that sense.

When you want to explain the sacrify of Christ after what I have written you are just repeting what you have said before showing you didn’t even grasp your theology stand point.

Sorry, I grasp my theological stand point. My purpose is to correct and clarify your portrayals of my own beliefs.

As far as caoncern Grace…again you are an empty repeater.

See above.

I am concerned about people like you wanting deliberatly misleading (even though I admit) unconsciously) other people.

See above.

I hope more and more people could be aware of this.
I hope christians will spread and defend christian message the same way you spread your way of thinking against christianity. You are just abusers.

I would not be politically correct because mormons are absolutely not politically correct when they knock at the door of a catholic or at an orthodox. They are just there to show them they are wrong. I am here to say you are wrong, misleading, confusing makers in the name of Christ and of the good, unrespetfull for other faiths (if not why you would try so hard with your missionary to convert people from their religion to your religion?) again in the name of Christ or better in the name of Joseph Smith.

That’s fine, and I am here to correct incorrect portrayals of my beliefs, and to provide the perspective of a believing member of The Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I believe I already presented the reasoning behind why traditional Christians would not accept Latter-day Saints as Protestants or “Christian”, which we agreed on. My purpose in linking to the articles above was to further emphasize the Latter-day Saint perspective on the issues that I was responding to, namely, that we deny that Jesus Christ is the Creator, as well as our belief in exaltation. So yes, perhaps I was repeating what I was saying, for emphasis.

There is a difference between “a creator” and “the creator”. The Jesus you believe in is “a creator”, one among who knows how many creators, not the Creator. Period. There is but One God and no other.

Just want to be clear, as I haven’t met many Mormons who understand the differences, thinking themselves to believe as Christians do if you skew it just a bit. There is a very big difference.

 

[LivingWaters7]

There is a difference between “a creator” and “the creator”. The Jesus you believe in is “a creator”, one among who knows how many creators, not the Creator. Period. There is but One God and no other.

Just want to be clear, as I haven’t met many Mormons who understand the differences, thinking themselves to believe as Christians do if you skew it just a bit. There is a very big difference.

And again, I believe that the articles I linked to clarify the Latter-day Saint perspective from the Latter-day Saint perspective, including the existence of other gods, including the potential for our exaltation through Christ’s atonement.

 

[truthsave]

[Living Waters7]Sorry, I grasp my theological stand point. My purpose is to correct and clarify your portrayals of my own beliefs.

and which one you have clarified. There is one mistake in what I say about mormon doctrine ?
Wha tis not correct in what I said ?
It is more like you are conforting yourself from an emotive point of view.
We are talking about reasoning behind your emotive world. Not emotive world behind your reasoning.

 

[LivingWaters7]

and which one you have clarified. There is one mistake in what I say about mormon doctrine ?
Wha tis not correct in what I said ?
It is more like you are conforting yourself from an emotive point of view.
We are talking about reasoning behind your emotive world. Not emotive world behind your reasoning.

Please see my posts to you above.

 

[truthsave]

Please see my posts to you above.

Then there is a problem a third person would be kind to clirify.

 

[Jerusha]

Then there is a problem a third person would be kind to clirify.

It is not your problem. He is trying to take advantage of your language difference. You are well-informed.

 

[LivingWaters7]

It is not your problem. He is trying to take advantage of your language difference. You are well-informed.

Please see my posts above and demonstrate how I am trying to take advantage of language difference.

 

[truthsave]

It is not your problem. He is trying to take advantage of your language difference. You are well-informed.

I accept he is taking this kind of advantage. But to demonstrate what? that I report something uncorrectly about mormonism?
What then?
At least “see it above” for me is not clear.

 

[Jerusha]

It then becomes necessary to go to the sources, like the Journal of Discourses. The on-line version is word-searchable. Of course, he will then go to "we don’t teach that now, " but their teachings are constantly changing. And it is difficult for their members to practice a religion which is so fluid, other than by tithing and attending the temple. Mere works, and not charitable works at that.

 

[LivingWaters7]

It then becomes necessary to go to the sources, like the Journal of Discourses. The on-line version is word-searchable. Of course, he will then go to "we don’t teach that now, " but their teachings are constantly changing. And it is difficult for their members to practice a religion which is so fluid, other than by tithing and attending the temple. Mere works, and not charitable works at that.

And again, please see my posts above and demonstrate how I am trying to take advantage of language difference.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And again, I believe that the articles I linked to clarify the Latter-day Saint perspective from the Latter-day Saint perspective, including the existence of other gods, including the potential for our exaltation through Christ’s atonement.

And then?

Just have to be clear, the LDS do not have a Christian perspective, no matter how you try to make it fit, it doesn’t. Saying you believe Jesus is the Creator does not present a complete view of LDS teaching. See your Book of Abraham, where it explicitly teaches GODS, plural, got together and formed creation from existing matter.

You should realize this is a pagan teaching to Catholic ears. Certainly doesn’t have roots in Protestantism.

 

[truthsave]

And then?

Just have to be clear, the LDS do not have a Christian perspective, no matter how you try to make it fit, it doesn’t. Saying you believe Jesus is the Creator does not present a complete view of LDS teaching. See your Book of Abraham, where it explicitly teaches GODS, plural, got together and formed creation from existing matter.

You should realize this is a pagan teaching to Catholic ears. Certainly doesn’t have roots in Protestantism.

This is what I don’t understand. You should realize it, Living Waters7.
And then I don’t think is a language advance, even though of course there is one since evidently English is not neither my first nor second language since I am Italian living in a French speaking part of Switzerland.
It is not question of getting an advantage.
I can explain to you what you say you didn’t understand. But I am sure that if you would have made a little effort you would have understood it.

"What does “relative to chair” mean?
I have never heard that phrase used before.
So what? Just ask yourself what will differenziate us and Him in the LDS spirit world. Just hierarchy. Since we and Him would have been of the same nature in that world.

I am not sure what you mean by “political union”.
You can find the meaning in John’s Gospel. One as He and the Father is.
In LDS this union is not really a mistery (not even a mistery is considered the union between a man and a woman even though is said to be a mistery). Union, for LDS is like being on the same side willingly observing the same rules. So political not mistical.
This is the union with the Father from a LDS point of view.
If not what kind of union it is since there is a possibility for LDS members to become gods.

From a Christian point of view there is neither saintity nor eternal life outside the union with the Father. And this union is a complete total an unconceivable in our human situation.
The Holy Father is not a rewarding father for our act but a rewarding father for the realization of our fault, our sins and our weakness. For the courage of refusing the ignorance as consequence of our egoism. Things that are exalted everytime we try to get our own personal good. This is the only thing that get exaltation. Our egocentricity. Our own personal “small” good. Our small world that includes us and our family and everybody we love. And Jesus talked about this clearly.

The thing that is very strange is that mormons when things are said by non mormons they say these things are said incorrectly.

One of the best things studying Christianity is that from a Christian saint point of view the heaven is not really an heaven if some is out of it since it will be sadness for the one that is ot there. An LDS or a JW wait for their reward and if some is out is just out. Maybe not
you, but many of them.

And not to want to understand it it is not a language problem but attitude. This attitude starts ignoring Abhram in Genesis 18:22 with his intercession for Sodoma.
(it makes clear and easy that the interception of one could save many unworthy)
Here, at the very begining of the Bible you already can trace also the concept of intercession that LDS or JW just ignore or prefer to ignore since it would make them closer to Christianity.

I love a verse written in the Book of Enoch (not canonical except for the Euthiopian Orthodox).

God cannot curse what He blessed (talking about men), so He cursed his (men) ignorance.

Ignorance is what you want to ignore or prefer to ignore not what you cannot know.

 

[Jerusha]

But I am sure that if you would have made a little effort you would have understood it.

But he doesn’t WANT to understand.