Mormonism and Repentance

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker, some thoughts

Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe this included murderers, if they were to accept His Mercy.

And maybe it has been already mentioned but what about Saint Paul who had Christians put to death? What about Saint Peter who denied Christ three time? Is this not a form of murder? And what about each of us, have any of us had or felt hate for another? Not until we can see each of us as murderers will we come to understand Gods Mercy for each of us. Judas had little faith in Gods Mercy, but there is even the possibility that he is with Jesus in Heaven. The thief on the cross helps to give all of us hope. I don’t believe its about the others, I believe its about you and I. He saved me a sinner, He saved me.

Catholic-RCIA,

1. Paul was “consenting unto his death”, as in Acts 8: 1
   1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.

Acts 9: 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

I think Saul indeed needed to repent, but it does not appear to me that his sins included the actual sin of murder, although he imprisoned the members and caused great stress and trouble among them.

It appears to me that the words of Christ “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” were talking about the Roman soldiers, who were taking orders from a higher authority in what they did.

1. It appears to me that Peter’s motives were to:

–not be crucified along with Christ if a hue and cry were to be made about his leadership among the disciples of Christ, so that he could lead the members afterward.

–be able to stay around during the mock trial and observe the events and thus be a witness, rather than be imprisoned or be threatened and sent away.

–maybe he realized that Christ’s words of warning to Him were a way of suggesting to Him that “thou shalt deny me thrice” was a case of His having asked Peter to do something that his courageous personality would not be inclined to do, so that Peter could be the leader of the church on earth and could be the witness of the unfolding events, as he was.

Certainly, lying can be repented of. When I wrote about first degree murder, I was writing about only that sin and writing about forgiveness leading to exaltation in the Celestial glory, not just “salvation”. Repentant first degree murderers will suffer in hell (like David knew that he would have to do), but be resurrected to glory in a lesser glory than the Celestial.

1. Certainly, hateful feelings need to be repented of, and as people grow in sanctification they will find in their hearts that weaknesses and sins they hadn’t thought about before need to be repented of also. That is what sanctification is all about–repentance and change and growth toward becoming like Christ.

Have a peaceful day, all.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholic-RCIA,

1. Paul was “consenting unto his death”, as in Acts 8: 1
   1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.

Acts 9: 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

I think Saul indeed needed to repent, but it does not appear to me that his sins included the actual sin of murder, although he imprisoned the members and caused great stress and trouble among them.

It appears to me that the words of Christ “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” were talking about the Roman soldiers, who were taking orders from a higher authority in what they did.

1. It appears to me that Peter’s motives were to:

–not be crucified along with Christ if a hue and cry were to be made about his leadership among the disciples of Christ, so that he could lead the members afterward.

–be able to stay around during the mock trial and observe the events and thus be a witness, rather than be imprisoned or be threatened and sent away.

–maybe he realized that Christ’s words of warning to Him were a way of suggesting to Him that “thou shalt deny me thrice” was a case of His having asked Peter to do something that his courageous personality would not be inclined to do, so that Peter could be the leader of the church on earth and could be the witness of the unfolding events, as he was.

Certainly, lying can be repented of. When I wrote about first degree murder, I was writing about only that sin and writing about forgiveness leading to exaltation in the Celestial glory, not just “salvation”. Repentant first degree murderers will suffer in hell (like David knew that he would have to do), but be resurrected to glory in a lesser glory than the Celestial.

1. Certainly, hateful feelings need to be repented of, and as people grow in sanctification they will find in their hearts that weaknesses and sins they hadn’t thought about before need to be repented of also. That is what sanctification is all about–repentance and change and growth toward becoming like Christ.

Have a peaceful day, all.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholic-RCIA,

1. Paul was “consenting unto his death”, as in Acts 8: 1
   1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.

Acts 9: 1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

I think Saul indeed needed to repent, but it does not appear to me that his sins included the actual sin of murder, although he imprisoned the members and caused great stress and trouble among them.

Parker, Paul was present and oversaw the stoning of Stephen. You don’t have to physically participate in order to be guilty of murder.

It appears to me that the words of Christ “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” were talking about the Roman soldiers, who were taking orders from a higher authority in what they did.

I find this interesting that you think Jesus would say something to an individual and that it would only apply to that individual. God is not arbitrary. He would not treat the Roman soldiers any different than the way He would treat the rest of us.

1. It appears to me that Peter’s motives were to:

–not be crucified along with Christ if a hue and cry were to be made about his leadership among the disciples of Christ, so that he could lead the members afterward.

–be able to stay around during the mock trial and observe the events and thus be a witness, rather than be imprisoned or be threatened and sent away.

Everyone has a motive when lying or denying, usually self gain or preservation of some sort. That doesn’t mitigate it, even when we can understand.

–maybe he realized that Christ’s words of warning to Him were a way of suggesting to Him that “thou shalt deny me thrice” was a case of His having asked Peter to do something that his courageous personality would not be inclined to do, so that Peter could be the leader of the church on earth and could be the witness of the unfolding events, as he was.

I remember discussing Adam and Eve with you on another thread. It was the same mindset; that God would actually tempt someone or “suggest” that they sin in order to reach a greater good. No offense Parker, but this is really a flawed perception of who God is. There is something impossible for God, and that is sin or causing someone to sin.

 

[PaulDupre]

ParkerD:

It appears to me that the words of Christ “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” were talking about the Roman soldiers, who were taking orders from a higher authority in what they did.

You mean they were not guilty of murder because they were just following orders?

That was the excuse proffered by the Nazi defendants at the Nuremburg trials. It didn’t fly. They were convicted of murder and crimes against humanity.

If Christ forgave the Roman soldiers who killed him, he was forgiving them for murder.

After all, His blood is sufficient to clease us from ALL sin. (1 John 1:7,9)

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, Paul was present and oversaw the stoning of Stephen. You don’t have to physically participate in order to be guilty of murder.

I find this interesting that you think Jesus would say something to an individual and that it would only apply to that individual. God is not arbitrary. He would not treat the Roman soldiers any different than the way He would treat the rest of us.

Everyone has a motive when lying or denying, usually self gain or preservation of some sort. That doesn’t mitigate it, even when we can understand.

I remember discussing Adam and Eve with you on another thread. It was the same mindset; that God would actually tempt someone or “suggest” that they sin in order to reach a greater good. No offense Parker, but this is really a flawed perception of who God is. There is something impossible for God, and that is sin or causing someone to sin.

SteveVH,
I respectfully disagree that Saul “oversaw the stoning of Stephen” although he “was consenting unto his death” as a bystander.

These cases and PaulDupre’s comment illustrate that the question of “how much did they know when they did what they did” is an important question, as illustrated by the Savior’s teachings and words several times during His ministry. What their parents had taught them (or not) and what their society had taught them (or not) also enter into the picture.

I think God will be far more benevolent in His judgments than it appears that your comments would lead one to believe, but I do agree that sins need to be repented of and that a change of heart is what is meant as one repents. Then, after a person is baptized they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (which, for example, Peter did not yet have when he denied the Christ in talking to the unbelieving accusers). That gift places them into the realm of needing to listen to the Spirit; “he that hath the greater light, hath the greater condemnation.”

Peace to all.