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Tmaque
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Tmaque
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Seeks God:
Thanks for making my point. Spong is “atheistic”. Yet, Spong is an Episcopalian Bishop, is he not? And, I’ve never heard anyone challenge his claim to the title “Christian”. .
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Seeks_God
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I did say it…here it is without rhetorical(not riddle) questions.
Comparing a Christian Denominations to “Bishop” Spong and say the both claim themselves as Christian is not a great argument since most denominations believe that “Bishop” Spong does not emmulate traditional Christian values…
How was that? Did I improve my statement for you? Don’t take offense to me, I tend to say things like they are…I for one do not claim that Mormons are not Christians (in the dictionary sense of the word), just mis-guided…
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BDawg
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I guess the reasoning is that the Bible says to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, and it doesn’t ever say to pray any other way. So if God up and told us to pray to Jesus, we would do it. Catholics can appeal to “Tradition” on this score, but we obviously don’t have the same tradition.
Here’s the way I think of it. I am supposed to pray TO the Father, THROUGH the Son, while I am IN the Holy Spirit. I think this is a beginning of Jesus’ wish that Christians would be one in Him and the Father, as they are one together. (See John 17:20-22)
Does that make any sense to you?
BDawg
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Seeks_God
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Then why did Jesus refer to himself as “I AM”, a name reserved for God…drumroll…unless Jesus = God?
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Tmaque
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Seeks God:
First of all there was no rhetorical question in your post. Secondly, I didn’t take offense. Thirdly, you miss my point. It’s true that most Christians would agree that Spong and his ilk don’t “emmulate traditional Christian values”, and beliefs. It’s also true that most Christains would say that LDS DO “emmulate traditional Christian values”. Yet, who is berated for calling themselves “Christian”??? That is the point.
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Tmaque
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I can see the reasoning…thanks.
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BDawg
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Seeks God:
The difference lies in how we view the “Oneness” of God. Mormons believe that God is One in the sense that all the Persons that are God are completely ONE in love, will, purpose, and covenant. We believe that God is “more than one” in the sense that the Persons who are God are separate Beings. That’s why sometimes our scriptures talk about “one God,” and other times they talk about “gods”.
Catholics believe that God is “more than one” in the sense that the Trinity consists of three distinct Persons. However, they also believe that God is ONE in the sense that the three Persons are One Being.
Mormons and other Christians can completely talk past each other on this issue unless they take the time to understand each others’ terminology.
BDawg
I didn’t say Jesus wasn’t God. I said that He was not the Father. You believe (or are supposed to believe) the same thing.
The difference lies in how we view the “Oneness” of God. Mormons believe that God is One in the sense that all the Persons that are God are completely ONE in love, will, purpose, and covenant. We believe that God is “more than one” in the sense that the Persons who are God are separate Beings. That’s why sometimes our scriptures talk about “one God,” and other times they talk about “gods”.
Catholics believe that God is “more than one” in the sense that the Trinity consists of three distinct Persons. However, they also believe that God is ONE in the sense that the three Persons are One Being.
Mormons and other Christians can completely talk past each other on this issue unless they take the time to understand each others’ terminology.
BDawg
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Seeks_God
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I understood what you meant, but your scriptural references as well as the ‘tone’ of your argument seems to support the notion that Jesus is not God. Catholics believe that the 3 persons are 3 ways that God presents Himself to us. They are the same, one in unity, one in being. It is also why Catholics call it a mystery…because the human mind can’t grasp the concept of 3 separate, but one…Your LDS explaination even shows that very idea…
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BDawg
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Seeks God:
BTW, do you mean that God is really one Person who appears in three different ways to humans?
BDawg
I’m sorry–I don’t understand what you mean about my “tone” and the scriptural references I used. Can you explain? I certainly don’t mean to give the impression that Jesus is not God.
BTW, do you mean that God is really one Person who appears in three different ways to humans?
BDawg
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Seeks_God
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“tone” might not have been the word i was after…that’s why I had it in quotes. I was trying to imply the “intentions” of your argument…
As Catholics, we believe that the Trinity is One being existing as three persons. God has revealed himself as three persons in the bible: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
catholic.com/library/God_in_Three_Persons.asp
explains is pretty well.
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tkdnick
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BJ Colbert:
Muslims technically (if memory serves me right) believe in Jesus as A savior. Not, THE savior, but one of many.
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tkdnick
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BJ Colbert:
I’m a little offended by this statement. I have never said that the LDS are a cult or from some wierd planet! That was an awfully brad, sweeping, stereotype that is NOT true of everyone here. I may not agree with your beliefs, but I try my best to respect them.
BJ,
I’m a little offended by this statement. I have never said that the LDS are a cult or from some wierd planet! That was an awfully brad, sweeping, stereotype that is NOT true of everyone here. I may not agree with your beliefs, but I try my best to respect them.
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tkdnick
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That’s Modalism.
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BJ_Colbert
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Code:
I'm sorry Tkdnick, when I wrote that I had just read another thread where someone said we came from Kolob and there were millions of planets and gods spinning around the universe and we were all going to be gods someday, and I just get so tired of that rigamarole. I had to throw that in, so the originator of this thread would be prepared for that kind of response. It never came, so I was wrong to say that, and it was not meant for you or any of the other fair and balanced Catholics here. I really have enjoyed this thread and the comments of Tmaque and BDawg, and others. I know it is difficult not to lose patience when someone does not understand what is being explained. As you see by my other comment, I do not understand the Godhead, as the Catholics believe, but BDawg explained it and I still don't understand it. That is just me, I am very dense sometimes about certain things.
BJ
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Malachi4U
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By Websters dictionary Mormons are Christian.
By Protestant definition Mormons are Christian.
By Scripture definition Mormons are not Christian. (i.e. baptized in the name of the Trinity - 3 persons, One God, 1+1+1=1.) Since Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who became a god then they do not believe in the Trinity and therefore cannot/do not/ will not baptize people into Christianity.
I know numerous Mormons. They are good people and Jesus loves them as much as anyof us, but non of the Mormons I know are Christian except for the ones baptised with water in the name of the Trinity as per Scripture BEFORE they became a Mormon.
I use the Scripture definition of Christian and not Websters.
As for cult? The word is so miss-used it can mean anything. Any sect/denomination could be a cult. Even the apostles could be called a cult. The word ‘cult’ is now normally used as a biggoted coment to insult someone else.
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boppysbud
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While I agree with most of you about the Christianess of John Shelby Spong, there is one thing I wish to draw to your attention: He is not “bishop” Spong, not even to Episcopalians, he actually retired several years ago. So NOW he is just a big mouth with no influence anywhere really.
Now on the Christian status of the Mormons, it all relies on how one defines the word Christian. If you take the words of a secular dictionary, you can say they are Christians, since they beleive in someone they call Jesus Christ, and try to live by his teachings and beleive that he is the Redeemer.
However… there is no way you could call Mormons orthodox or mainstream Christians. And of course Momons use the same terms as Christians but redefine them radically. For example Mormons state that Christ is the Redeemer, but that redefine the word redemption to mean that Christ will ressurect EVERYONE, even non-Christians. Mormons use the term “exhalted” to mean what all other Christians mean by redeemed.
And of course Mormons beleive in (at least) three seperate Gods, not one God in Trinity. They teach that “heavenly Father” literally there, is a former human being with a physical body of “flesh and bone”, who worked his way up to godhood.
Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers from the “prexistence”, and that we are also siblings of Jesus and Satan.
They teach that everyone of us had a “prexistence”, that our memories were erased when we were sent to earth to get bodies, so that we too may be “exhalted” to status as Gods ourselves.
If you want to call all of that “Christian” feel free, but I will pass.
Now on the Christian status of the Mormons, it all relies on how one defines the word Christian. If you take the words of a secular dictionary, you can say they are Christians, since they beleive in someone they call Jesus Christ, and try to live by his teachings and beleive that he is the Redeemer.
However… there is no way you could call Mormons orthodox or mainstream Christians. And of course Momons use the same terms as Christians but redefine them radically. For example Mormons state that Christ is the Redeemer, but that redefine the word redemption to mean that Christ will ressurect EVERYONE, even non-Christians. Mormons use the term “exhalted” to mean what all other Christians mean by redeemed.
And of course Mormons beleive in (at least) three seperate Gods, not one God in Trinity. They teach that “heavenly Father” literally there, is a former human being with a physical body of “flesh and bone”, who worked his way up to godhood.
Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are brothers from the “prexistence”, and that we are also siblings of Jesus and Satan.
They teach that everyone of us had a “prexistence”, that our memories were erased when we were sent to earth to get bodies, so that we too may be “exhalted” to status as Gods ourselves.
If you want to call all of that “Christian” feel free, but I will pass.
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boppysbud
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BJ Colbert, Catholics do not beleive in a “godhead”, that is a Mormon concept, we also do not beleive in a God who is a former human being with a body of “flesh and bone”.
We believe in the Holy Trinity, One God in three persons. We beleive that God has always been God.
I am kind of surprised that you are surprised that many people say there are thousands of Gods in Mormonism. That statement comes directly from Mormon teaching it’self.
Mormons teach that they, being worthy, following all the Mormon commandments, and being married for time and eternity in one of the Mormon temples will be exhalted into Gods and Godesses themselves, even though they will never catch up with “heavenly Father” due to eternal progression.
You never heard of eternal progession?
Haven’t you heard the famous Mormon couplet
“As man is now, God once was. As God is now man may become”?
We believe in the Holy Trinity, One God in three persons. We beleive that God has always been God.
I am kind of surprised that you are surprised that many people say there are thousands of Gods in Mormonism. That statement comes directly from Mormon teaching it’self.
Mormons teach that they, being worthy, following all the Mormon commandments, and being married for time and eternity in one of the Mormon temples will be exhalted into Gods and Godesses themselves, even though they will never catch up with “heavenly Father” due to eternal progression.
You never heard of eternal progession?
Haven’t you heard the famous Mormon couplet
“As man is now, God once was. As God is now man may become”?
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gryskull
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BJ Colbert:
Do you mind posting the exact words from the Book of Abraham 3:15-22. I think this is from your scripture Pearl of Great Price. Thanks.
Dear BJ,The Catholics in this forum are pretty sure that Mormons are a cult and definitely not Christian in any way. They think we all came from some weird planet and believe in millions of Gods, and there is nothing that will convince them otherwise. So there you have it in a nutshell.
Just depends on who you ask.
If you ask a lifelong Mormon (me) I would say no we are not a cult and yes we are Christians.
Look at our website and decide for yourself…www.mormon.org
Good luck figuring it out, let me know what you decide.
BJ
Do you mind posting the exact words from the Book of Abraham 3:15-22. I think this is from your scripture Pearl of Great Price. Thanks.
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Fox
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Wasn’t the early Christian community called a cult? I think so.
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