Mormonism...Christian or Cult?

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iwonder,
Did you read my latest post about my husband’s difficulty being accepted as a Catholic in good standing? He read the response in these forums from priests who said the retired priest and the tribunal had no authority to forgive him and tell him he could go to confession and take the Eurcharist again. They said that he did not pay $150.00 and that I lied about that.
Just as you say, there was no authority to be forgiven and accepted back after divorce, even though his wife left him 25 years ago and joined the Seventh Day Adventist church and married someone else. So now my husband is not taking the Eucharist, even though he went to confession with his priest, Father Kiernan and he said to accept what the tribunal and the retired priest said and not to pay any attention to what you and the other priest in this forum and the priest on the radio and the other priest in his parish said.
Now, you tell me which priest is telling the truth? Which priest knows what the RCC teaches and where is God’s forgiveness in the Catholic Church? Does God not enter into your Church? Is there no prayer and fasting in considering these decisions? Why such a huge discrepancy among you about forgiveness. My husband can not get an annulment because when the tribunal questioned him, he would not say that his wife and he were not in love and that he was coerced in some way to marry her. They said if he did not lie and say that he was coerced or tricked into marrying her they could not give him an annulment. Then they said considering the circumstances and the length of time passed they would allow him back if he said all the hail Marys and Glory Bes, which he did.
Now, iwonder do you have the authority to go to the tribunal and ask if this was right? If you do would you please get to the bottom of this and ask the Sacramento Tribunal why they lied about his being able to take Eucharist again and go to confession and also call on Father Keirnan and ask him why he said to believe the tribunal and the retired priest. My husband has had brain surgery and is paralyzed on the right side, it is really very stressful for him as he never missed mass, and I am right beside him. I wonder how he can remain faithful with all of this, and what he went through as a child in the orphanage, but he never wavers. He cries and suffers greatly over the answers he gets and now your answer throughs more doubt on whether he really has the right to take the Eucharist.
He will be going through colon surgery soon for cancer and I would like to find the truth about this to put his mind at ease before he goes through this latest test of his faith. It would never be this difficult to get the Mormon Church to agree on what they believe. Talk about confusion. No one in the Catholic Church can agree on this one little thing. Most of them say"What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" simple end of story, no extenuating circumstances, no excuses. But, some say he is forgiven, now you say he isn’t and Catholikos or whoever also, said he isn’t. It is making me crazy trying to keep him Catholic. One good thing that has come out of this is that he has finally asked to take the missionary lessons of the LDS Church. After all the years of trying to be accepted back into the Catholic Church, it looks like he may give up. I will not say anything to encourage him, in fact I have fought to keep him steady in his own Church, but they are driving him out. Can you find the truth about this for us? Please, see if you can call the Sacramento tribunal, since you are an actual part of a tribunal and find out the actual facts. Any help you can offer would be so appreciated, this whole thing is driving me crazy for the past 3 years.
Thank You so much for any help you can offer in confirming or not confirming what so many priests have been unable to confirm. Is he accepted back or not?
:confused: BJ
 
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iwonder:
BJ Colbert:
Sorry- but you do not operate on good faith here. Your diatribe on the marriage issue is utter nonsense. That is not how these things are done in the Church sorry. My husband also got an annulment in the Church and I am a member of the annulment tribunal. You are deliberately spreading false info.
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Read my last post and if you can answer my husband sincerely and without your self-righteous, hate-filled(for LDS) diatrabe, we would sincerely appreciate your final answer and will take it as the answer my husband seeks, over and above his Parish priest, and the Sacramento Tribunal. I just want to know once and for all. You seem to know so tell us and we will accept you as the final authority for the RCC. Thank you sincerely from the bottom of my heart.
I for one would never join the Catholic Church after all you have said, if it were the last and only Church on earth, I would go directly to God and ask him, not this mass of confused humanity.
Sorry, but I am so frustrated with just trying to find out a simple answer. My husband is the kindest most generous person in the world, last year he donated over $6000.00 to the Catholic Church and they will not even give a straight answer that all agree on.
Thanks for whatever you can do to get the answer,
😦 BJ
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BJ,

It sounds like you have some very difficult issues to deal with. I just want you to know that I am praying for you and your husband and I hope everything works out well with the both of you physically and religiously. All I can say is that annulments are not to be taken lightly. The Church takes very seriously a marriage but is also will to listen if the possibility of a sacarmental marraige never took place to begin with. The people involved are human and their shortcomings may be difficult to deal with. However, do not let a bad experience (no matter how bad it may be) be an indictment against the whole Church. Because the actions of some may be questionable in your eyes does not change the fact that the fullness of the truth is what we should ultimately seek. I pray that the redemptive suffering your husband is going through now and has been going through will be offered up to God and will help the both of you get through this period and come out the other side with a new knowledge, respect, and love for the fullness of the truth Jesus has given us in His Church.

God Bless,
BigJack
 
BJ Colbert:
iwonder,
Did you read my latest post about my husband’s difficulty being accepted as a Catholic in good standing? He read the response in these forums from priests who said the retired priest and the tribunal had no authority to forgive him and tell him he could go to confession and take the Eurcharist again. They said that he did not pay $150.00 and that I lied about that.
Just as you say, there was no authority to be forgiven and accepted back after divorce, even though his wife left him 25 years ago and joined the Seventh Day Adventist church and married someone else. So now my husband is not taking the Eucharist, even though he went to confession with his priest, Father Kiernan and he said to accept what the tribunal and the retired priest said and not to pay any attention to what you and the other priest in this forum and the priest on the radio and the other priest in his parish said.
Now, you tell me which priest is telling the truth? Which priest knows what the RCC teaches and where is God’s forgiveness in the Catholic Church? Does God not enter into your Church? Is there no prayer and fasting in considering these decisions? Why such a huge discrepancy among you about forgiveness. My husband can not get an annulment because when the tribunal questioned him, he would not say that his wife and he were not in love and that he was coerced in some way to marry her. They said if he did not lie and say that he was coerced or tricked into marrying her they could not give him an annulment. Then they said considering the circumstances and the length of time passed they would allow him back if he said all the hail Marys and Glory Bes, which he did.
Now, iwonder do you have the authority to go to the tribunal and ask if this was right? If you do would you please get to the bottom of this and ask the Sacramento Tribunal why they lied about his being able to take Eucharist again and go to confession and also call on Father Keirnan and ask him why he said to believe the tribunal and the retired priest. My husband has had brain surgery and is paralyzed on the right side, it is really very stressful for him as he never missed mass, and I am right beside him. I wonder how he can remain faithful with all of this, and what he went through as a child in the orphanage, but he never wavers. He cries and suffers greatly over the answers he gets and now your answer throughs more doubt on whether he really has the right to take the Eucharist.
He will be going through colon surgery soon for cancer and I would like to find the truth about this to put his mind at ease before he goes through this latest test of his faith. It would never be this difficult to get the Mormon Church to agree on what they believe. Talk about confusion. No one in the Catholic Church can agree on this one little thing. Most of them say"What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" simple end of story, no extenuating circumstances, no excuses. But, some say he is forgiven, now you say he isn’t and Catholikos or whoever also, said he isn’t. It is making me crazy trying to keep him Catholic. One good thing that has come out of this is that he has finally asked to take the missionary lessons of the LDS Church. After all the years of trying to be accepted back into the Catholic Church, it looks like he may give up. I will not say anything to encourage him, in fact I have fought to keep him steady in his own Church, but they are driving him out. Can you find the truth about this for us? Please, see if you can call the Sacramento tribunal, since you are an actual part of a tribunal and find out the actual facts. Any help you can offer would be so appreciated, this whole thing is driving me crazy for the past 3 years.
Thank You so much for any help you can offer in confirming or not confirming what so many priests have been unable to confirm. Is he accepted back or not?
:confused: BJ
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Sorry- your post is pure, rabid anti Catholicism. No one receives an annulment in the catholic Churchon the strength of paying 150.00. The money is requested to cover cost, and is not required and if not available the tribunal panel wouldn’t know about it anyway.
2. No one receives an annulment on the strength of one preist or five priests decisions. Only through the tribunal is an annulment granted.
3. No one receives an annulment and re-enters in good standing by saying a bunch of hail mary’s and glory be’s. The Glory Be by the way is the Doxology, not to be confused with the bumblebee as you have repeatedly done.
4.If your husband was raped and molested by priests as you mentioned in your earlier post on this subject, then you need to seek legal council. Nevertheless, it would not affect his annulment process nor his standing in the Community.
5. It is absolute truth that the Tribunal has no authority to forgive anybody. Their purpose is only to determine the validity of the marriage. Only under the seal of confession may a person receive absolution.
 
This has been an interesting thread. I would just like to echo the point that several Catholics have made that it’s more effective to attract bees with honey than with a stick. I was an LDS missionary in South America where the vast majority of the people were Catholic. I can tell you we had a lot of success and it wasn’t by attacking the Catholic Church. Rule number one as taught in the MTC (Missionary Training Center) was “Build upon common beliefs”. Considering that the LDS church has grown from six to 11 million in just 175 years I think we know a bit about proselytizing and what is effective and what isn’t. If we had showed up attacking the Catholic church, calling it a cult and non-Christian do you think anyone would have listened to us?

Conversely, if a Catholic person wants to attempt to convert an LDS you don’t start by calling their church a cult and saying they’re not Christian! What is gained by doing that?? Instead, become their friend, discuss religion openly, share ideas, build on common beliefs, show respect, demonstrate Christianity through the way you live, and introduce the beauty of the Catholic Church slowly in a way they can understand and appreciate. This isn’t rocked science. Attacking someone’s faith rarely yields positive results.
 
Casen,

I agree 1000% with your assessment of what is necessary and what works when trying to convert. However, this is a Catholic forum, not a missionary apostolate.

Also, there is a difference in pointing out error and outright attack. I agree, there has been some outright attack in this thread (from both sides), and that is regrettable. That is not appropriate, no matter what the setting. But do not confuse the defending of one’s Catholicism by pointing out the error (as arrived at via the teachings of Catholicism) of the LDS Church. That is not attack, but simply logical debate. We must all be careful (and again, both sides have been guilty of crossing the line in this thread) not to cross the line of honest debate over into outright attack. I realize that honest debate is not necessarily the way to win converts either, but again, that is not the aim of this forum. Honest, civil debate though is the respectable way one should conduct oneself. I commend you for that. Your posts are quite civil and you are quite knowledgeable in your faith. Thanks for your participation.

BigJack
 
RE: But do not confuse the defending of one’s Catholicism by pointing out the error (as arrived at via the teachings of Catholicism) of the LDS Church. That is not attack, but simply logical debate. We must all be careful (and again, both sides have been guilty of crossing the line in this thread) not to cross the line of honest debate over into outright attack.

BigJack,
Yes, I agree with you. I have no problem with debate. I was specifically refering to the title of this thread: Mormonism… Christian or Cult. Since every church gets to define the word “christian” for themselves they usually define it in such a way as to exclude others. And we already agree our doctrines are different so what is really the point of telling someone their church is a cult and they are not Christians? It doesn’t help either side to call someone names.
 
Casen,

Point taken. But, since this is a Catholic forum, is it not okay for Catholics to ask for and receive opinions from other Catholics concerning whether or not they believe there is any authenticy to a particular group and whether or not that group has a legitimate claim to genuine Christianity or if they are a cult? Don’t get me wrong, we (or at least I) are/am very glad to have your participation. Ultimately however, this is a Catholic site and among Catholics, “Mormonism. . . Christian or Cult?” is a legitmate topic. So we are not really “telling someone that their church is a cult and they are not Christians” as much as we are discussing that issue among ourselves, then responding accordingly when challenged by a visitor from that particular church. I agree, it would be a bit less tastefull if I were to go to an LDS website and begin such a thread. In fact, I would expect to find a thread, “Catholicism. . . Apostate or legitimate?” I would then proceed (as you are doing) in trying to help the people understand the position from a Catholic perspective.

You did hit on the nature of the problem though when you said that each church will decide for themselves the meaning of Christian. Somehow I don’t believe God left us without a solution to this problem. There can only be one authority.

BigJack
 
BigJack,
I see your point. Indeed I am only a guest on a Catholic forum and you are certainly free to discuss the topic amongst yourselves. I was only offering my $0.02.
 
The Catholic Church has long held it a cult/heresy…in fact…actual fact here my friends:) our Church at various points has bought former Mormon buildings there is an " Exorcism / cleansing rite" just for Former Mormon worship structures!!! Don’t know details…a Dominican friend told me that!!!
 
This just in (from hotair.com):

Bennett blasts pastor at Values Voter Summit

posted at 9:47 am on October 8, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

Bill Bennett took the stage a few minutes ago at the Values Voters Summit and blasted one of the previous day’s speakers, to the surprise of the crowd. Southern Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress told the media yesterday that evangelicals had a duty to reject Mormons and other non-Christians, and that Mormonism is considered a cult. Bennett responded today by exhorting the crowd, “Do not give voice to bigotry.”

Furthermore, Bennett addressed his comments to Jeffress directly, saying. “You did Perry no good, sir,” and accused him of stepping on the other candidates as well. Bennett then joked that, as a Catholic, he can argue that he had it right the longest, to plenty of good-natured laughter.

The crowd reacted with some gasps, plenty of murmurs to Bennett’s slam at Jeffress, but also a significant amount of applause. While some in the crowd might agree with Jeffress as a theological point, there seems to be a strong current of thought that Jeffress crossed a line yesterday, at least politically. Bennett might not have intended to demonstrate how much diversity of thought there is at the Values Voters Summit, but it certainly delivered that message.

Update: Jeffress is not the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, although he is a significant leader among Southern Baptists. The SBC president is Bryan Wright. Thanks to Luke G for the correction; I misunderstood Jeffress’ introduction yesterday, which listed him as an SBC “leader.”
 
Elvis_Guy said:
The Catholic Church has long held it a cult/heresy…in fact…actual fact here my friends:) our Church at various points has bought former Mormon buildings there is an " Exorcism / cleansing rite" just for Former Mormon worship structures!!! Don’t know details…a Dominican friend told me that!!!
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I think there is a generic cleansing rite for a new building to be used as a church, and also resanctification if a murder or similar evil happened on the site of an existing church, but I’ve never heard of a specifically “Mormon” exorcism.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
I think there is a generic cleansing rite for a new building to be used as a church, and also resanctification if a murder or similar evil happened on the site of an existing church, but I’ve never heard of a specifically “Mormon” exorcism.
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They probly do this at all sights Mike. I don’t know thats exlusive to anyone is it?

Peace
 
archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp This post on Catholic Answers pretty much proves mormonism is a made up religion. Whether you decide to label it a cult is entirely up to you. The article doesn’t address matters of faith so much as physical proof that joseph smith was playing make believe when he invented his own religion that (through the grace of satan) has grown to be so large and confuse sooo many people. I won’t cater to anyones “feelings” anymore. God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are one being yet three entities. The Bible is Sacred Scripture but it is NOT “all” that Christ taught and so to fully know God one must go beyond JUST the Bible. Catholics are right. Plain and simple. I don’t say that to sound superior or to offend anyone. I say it because it is the truth. Our Lord and Savior Christ Himself built our Church. Not one other church in this world can or ever will be able to make that claim again. Christ wanted unity. He only built ONE Church so there is only ONE Church we should all be trying to enter. This universalism **** I put up with the new age philosophy. We can be in millions of different denominations having VASTLY different beliefs, yet as long as we’re good people we’re all going to heaven. If that were true Christ would have built more than One Church or would not have given Peter so much authority over EVERYONE. As far as I’m concerned its case closed. Catholic=fully christian, protestant=incomplete, muslim=wrong lds=wrong etc etc etc God Bless and I pray all Catholics start evangelizing properly (obviously not in the tone I write in) but to show the important that the Catholic Church is the way and the truth and not urge people into staying in their incomplete and in many cases heretical “churches” where no matter how best their intentions, they are outside of doing God’s will.
 
Elvis_Guy said:
The Catholic Church has long held it a cult/heresy…in fact…actual fact here my friends:) our Church at various points has bought former Mormon buildings there is an " Exorcism / cleansing rite" just for Former Mormon worship structures!!! Don’t know details…a Dominican friend told me that!!!
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LOL Please let me know if your authorities ever identity any specific mormon devils. I’ll save up and give them a party.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
I think there is a generic cleansing rite for a new building to be used as a church, and also resanctification if a murder or similar evil happened on the site of an existing church, but I’ve never heard of a specifically “Mormon” exorcism.
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Brother! I got it From one Fr. Brad a super sharp Dominican. If you want his email and debate a Dominican…well…Angels fear to tread! Actually he saw it performed in Italy Mormons tried to start up a " Church" right near Rome ! It didn’t go over:) but it seems the building was nice…I think in fact ( this I can’t swear too it was a few years back but he was at Dominican House…I think…he said the Dominican superior himself conducted the Rite… Hey you know our church…we got a right for about everything …fun of Catholicism!🙂
 
Cowboy_Pete said:
LOL Please let me know if your authorities ever identity any specific mormon devils. I’ll save up and give them a party.
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Pete my man…I made no personal attack on your church…reread my post I related what my good Domincan friend said…I think the snarky cheap shop was rather uncalled for. Peace my man peace…
 
Elvis_Guy said:
Pete my man…I made no personal attack on your church…reread my post I related what my good Domincan friend said…I think the snarky cheap shop was rather uncalled for. Peace my man peace…
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Elvis, I appreciate your kind words. And if you’re ever in Vegas, please let me give you a tour and protect you from your imitators. 😉 Drop me a PM and I’ll send you my email/cell if I haven’t been banned.
 
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