Mormonism: God's "literal" spirit-children??

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

Perhaps I should have said that addressing God in the informal personal of Father was not common. Abba means daddy, afterall.

Very nice!!!

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

I still would like you to show me where in the Bible it refers to us as mere creatures. I believe the weight of scripture (and logic)portray us as Gods children.

 

[PaulDupre]

I still would like you to show me where in the Bible it refers to us as mere creatures. I believe the weight of scripture (and logic)portray us as Gods children.

Here is a small sample:

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (was Jesus telling them to preach to the mice and the snails?)

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

All of the passages you posted were figurative passages from the Old Testament. The clear passages from the New Testament say that we are creatures. It is a common tactic of Mormons and JWs to ignore the clear passages from the New Testament and rely for their doctrines on figurative and obscure passages from the Old Testament.

Paul

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

Here is a small sample:

All of the passages you posted were figurative passages from the Old Testament. The clear passages from the New Testament say that we are creatures. It is a common tactic of Mormons and JWs to ignore the clear passages from the New Testament and rely for their doctrines on figurative and obscure passages from the Old Testament.

Paul

For a minute I was worried that you had a good point. Then I realized you searched for the word “creature” in an on-line bible and simply pasted all the results and didn’t bother reading them first.

2 Corinthians 5:17 & Galatians 6:15 are speaking of our regenerate state after being redeemed. If we are therefore referred to as creatures even after our conversion your point is absolutely mute. This only goes to show that Paul is using the word “creature” in a loose way, not literally as you assert.

Colossians 1:15 This scripture is referring to Christ!!!

Now let me make one final point and then I am through with this drabble. If we are somehow of less value or lower status prior to our conversion then one must ask; What is the true value of a non-believer? Are they seen as less in God’s eyes. Does he love them less than the regenerate? I say NAY NAY!! It is a shame you feel this way, but since you obviously have such strong a belief in this perhaps when you begin to share your faith with others you should first explain to them how they are mere “creatures” and the YOU are a child of God.

 

[majick275]

i’m going to disagree. 2 Cor and Gal 6 are in my mind still valid as even though we are children of God by adoption we are still physically “creatures” in that we are literally created by God.

colossians 1 does refer to Jesus but here is where it is important to note that Jesus was both fully man and fully God… While incarnate he was thus Creator AND created.

you seem to think that God doesn’t love and value his creations. I would point you to Psalms 8 and then to it’s continuation in hebrews 2. now consider also what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6. I think God loves us immensely even though we are “just” his creations. Think about it…God created man in his own image. He custom built us to be exactly what he wanted. That’s pretty special.

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

i’m going to disagree. 2 Cor and Gal 6 are in my mind still valid as even though we are children of God by adoption we are still physically “creatures” in that we are literally created by God.

colossians 1 does refer to Jesus but here is where it is important to note that Jesus was both fully man and fully God… While incarnate he was thus Creator AND created.

you seem to think that God doesn’t love and value his creations. I would point you to Psalms 8 and then to it’s continuation in hebrews 2. now consider also what Jesus tells us in Matthew 6. I think God loves us immensely even though we are “just” his creations. Think about it…God created man in his own image. He custom built us to be exactly what he wanted. That’s pretty special.

On the contrary I believe God loves us more than anything else. We were created in his image and likeness. We are his masterpiece. It is the viewpoint that we are not his “children” until we are converted that I disagree with. We are his children from the moment of our inception, and he loves and values each of us equally whether we follow his will or not. Does a parent love his wayward child any less than the obedient? Is his lost and sinful child of less value than his others?
Do we preach to people, “God will love you more if you convert!”
I know I said I was done in my last message, but what can I say, I’m a sucker!!

 

[GIMJ]

So the argument is: I find it more emotionally satisfying to think that I am the byproduct of God and a God-wife’s conjugal union, ergo it must be true.

You’re free to believe what you want, but I think the reasoning is pretty lousy.

 

[majick275]

On the contrary I believe God loves us more than anything else. We were created in his image and likeness. We are his masterpiece. It is the viewpoint that we are not his “children” until we are converted that I disagree with. We are his children from the moment of our inception, and he loves and values each of us equally whether we follow his will or not. Does a parent love his wayward child any less than the obedient? Is his lost and sinful child of less value than his others?
Do we preach to people, “God will love you more if you convert!”
I know I said I was done in my last message, but what can I say, I’m a sucker!!

I must have missed something. I also think God loves us all infinitely all the time. Post conversion I think it pleases him that we are better able to enjoy eternal life as he intended but I think he loves us the same. I DON’T believe we are his literal offspring in the mormon sense of being embryonic gods nor do I accept that he was once a man who “achieved” exaltation as LDS teach.

 

[PaulDupre]

Colossians 1:15 This scripture is referring to Christ!!!

It is refering to Christ’s relationship to His creation - including us.

Let’s look at the passage in context:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Note: The “For” in the next verse means that now Paul is going to explain to us what “the firstborn of every creature” means.

16 **For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: **

• Colossians 1:13-19

Note that thrones, dominions, principalities and powers are all Hebrew terms for different types of angels. Now, Mormons insist that angels are just people, either before birth or after earthly death. The passage states that everything, including angels, was created by Christ. So it would follow for a Mormon as well as for a Christian that all people were created by Jesus, not born from Elohim and his wives.

This dovetails nicely with John 1:1-3,12-13

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born that is, born again as sons of God], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

• John 1:1-3,12-13

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So the argument is: I find it more emotionally satisfying to think that I am the byproduct of God and a God-wife’s conjugal union, ergo it must be true.

You’re free to believe what you want, but I think the reasoning is pretty lousy.

Unfortunately this is the reasoning from which the spirit-child doctrine seems to have the greatest “support”.

Note that thrones, dominions, principalities and powers are all Hebrew terms for different types of angels. Now, Mormons insist that angels are just people, either before birth or after earthly death. The passage states that everything, including angels, was created by Christ. So it would follow for a Mormon as well as for a Christian that all people were created by Jesus, not born from Elohim and his wives.

…OR born from Jesus and his wives …

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, but Jesus didn’t get his wives in Mormon doctrine until after he was born onto the earth, so all people could not have come from those supposed unions.

BTW, did you know that early Mormon leaders taught that they (the leaders) were literal descendants of Jesus and his many wives and children? :ehh:

Paul

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

So the argument is: I find it more emotionally satisfying to think that I am the byproduct of God and a God-wife’s conjugal union, ergo it must be true.

You’re free to believe what you want, but I think the reasoning is pretty lousy.

Are you reading a different post than i am typing? Did I ever say anything about Gods-wife? Let me go back and check…Nope!!!

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

Yes, but Jesus didn’t get his wives in Mormon doctrine until after he was born onto the earth, so all people could not have come from those supposed unions.

BTW, did you know that early Mormon leaders taught that they (the leaders) were literal descendants of Jesus and his many wives and children? :ehh:

Paul

You guys are absolutely obsessed with Mormons!!! I can’t believe you even care what they think. You write them off as nut cases and satan worshipers and yet you continually bring up their teachings?

Why?

 

[PaulDupre]

You guys are absolutely obsessed with Mormons!!! I can’t believe you even care what they think. You write them off as nut cases and satan worshipers and yet you continually bring up their teachings?

Why?

Because my family was torn to shreds by Mormonism, and I still have a few siblings stuck in it. And Mormons are out there every day trying to convert unsuspecting Christians. I know first hand how Mormonism ruins lives and breaks up families and how evil and anti-biblical its teachings are. Therefore it is my sacred duty to warn other Christians against it and point out all of the blasphemous teachings that the lying members and missionaries won’t tell them.

Spiritual works of mercy #2: Instruct the ignorant.

That’s why.

Paul (a former Mormon, now Catholic)

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

Because my family was torn to shreds by Catholicism, and I still have a few siblings stuck in it. And Catholics are out there every day trying to convert unsuspecting Mormons. I know first hand how Catholicism ruins lives and breaks up families and how evil and anti-biblical its teachings are. Therefore it is my sacred duty to warn other Mormons against it and point out all of the blasphemous teachings that the lying members and leaders won’t tell them.

Spiritual works of mercy #2: Instruct the ignorant.

That’s why.

I could go on like this all day. Go ahead pick a church any church and I can bash it!!

 

[majick275]

so then the difference is Paul does this on a Catholic site where people seeking “catholic answers” go to by choice.

an LDS should (if they believe what you posted) do so on their sites where people CHOOSING mormon answers would go.

which category are you in?

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

so then the difference is Paul does this on a Catholic site where people seeking “catholic answers” go to by choice.

an LDS should (if they believe what you posted) do so on their sites where people CHOOSING mormon answers would go.

which category are you in?

I answered in the way I did to show how easy it is to “bash” other people.
Words are cheap, but the tongue can start fires that cannot be extinguished. The things you say here are seen by many people and those people can form their opinions of you and of the Catholic church based on what they read. They then make spiritual decisions based on what they take away from here, and you bear the consequences of those things, for good or for bad.

 

[PaulDupre]

I answered in the way I did to show how easy it is to “bash” other people.
Words are cheap, but the tongue can start fires that cannot be extinguished. The things you say here are seen by many people and those people can form their opinions of you and of the Catholic church based on what they read. They then make spiritual decisions based on what they take away from here, and you bear the consequences of those things, for good or for bad.

You should read the Early Church Fathers. They were every bit as tough on the gnostics and other heretics of their day as we are on the modern gnostics - the Mormons. They condemned heresy and blasphemy in the very strongest of terms. Can we in good conscience do any less?

Paul

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I answered in the way I did to show how easy it is to “bash” other people.
Words are cheap, but the tongue can start fires that cannot be extinguished. The things you say here are seen by many people and those people can form their opinions of you and of the Catholic church based on what they read. They then make spiritual decisions based on what they take away from here, and you bear the consequences of those things, for good or for bad.

This isnt “bashing”. The LDS REALLY teach these things, anything that is presented that is inaccurate should be gladly corrected. This issue of producing spirit children by God having relations with a goddess is apparently a true belief of Mormons…but one that carries serious consequences and not a comfortable topic for many obviously. From my understanding this is one of those doctrines that we outsiders are not supposed to learn until after we convert to Mormonism.

From a Catholic perspective when heretical doctrine is being taught that means souls are potentially in grave danger to fall into those heresies, it is a good idea to expose them.

 

[MaHeRsHaLaL]

You should read the Early Church Fathers. They were every bit as tough on the gnostics and other heretics of their day as we are on the modern gnostics - the Mormons. They condemned heresy and blasphemy in the very strongest of terms. Can we in good conscience do any less?

Paul

You should do no less. However calling members and missionaries liars is a different matter.
My point in copying the previous statement was that anyone can say those types of slanderous things about others. I hear the same things about JW’s and Catholics from other sources and I think it is terrible in those cases as well.
We were having a nice conversation about doctrine and quoting scripture when all of the sudden this person steps in and starts flailing the sword of “Oh yeah… well look what they did to me!”