Mormonism or Islam

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codefro

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I want this post to be very specifically on this subject, so did not post this on the “anything goes” thread.

Mormons believe a great apostasy occurred following the death of the Apostles and lead to over a thousand years of the world be devoid of the full truth until Joseph Smith came about and thus the Book of Mormon was born.

To some degree, Muslims believe the same. After the death of Jesus (not a crucifixion according to their beliefs), the believers of Jesus hijacked his gospel and founded the Christian religion. This was not the truth and required a correct message for Gabriel to once again appear to Muhammad and thus the Koran was born.

Now…

both make similar claims about Christianity (lacking the full/ true/ complete message). Why would I choose Mormonism over Islam, or vice versa assuming I were to not be a Catholic any longer.

This is in the interest of dialogue btw. Not looking to transfer faiths.
 
In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim - and threat,
“I will be a second Mohammed to this generation…whose motto, in treating for peace, was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword,’ so shall it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.’
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This statement by Joseph Smith is from the sworn affidavit of Thomas B. Marsh on October 24, 1838, who was a first hand witness of the prophet’s remarks shortly before. Up until this time, Marsh had been President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. On February 10, 1838, Thomas Marsh and David Patten together, had also been elected Presidents ‘pro tempore’ of the Church in Missouri (RHC, vol. 2, p. 142). Marsh’s testimony is confirmed in the sworn affidavit of Orson Hyde, who had formerly been a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles as well.

Joseph Smith’s Mohammed statement is also verified in the sworn affidavit of another first hand witness, John Corrill. Up to this time John Corrill (High Priest and Bishop’s assistant) also had a long and distinguished career in the church; he had been placed in charge of Kirtland Temple, appointed member of the committee to appraise and sell lots in Far West, appointed Keeper of the Lord’s Storehouse and as recently as April 6, 1838 had been appointed a historian of the church (RHC, vol. 2, pp. 9, 113, 120, 149).

The sworn affidavits referred to above come from Correspondence, Orders, &C., in relation to the disturbances with the Mormons; and the evidence given before the Hon. Austin A. King, Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, at the Court-house in Richmond, in a criminal court of inquiry, begun November 12, 1838, on the trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and others, for high treason and other crimes against the state. (Fayette, MO: Published by the order of the General Assembly, 1841),

Thomas B. Marsh, pp.57–59; Orson Hyde, p. 59; John Corrill, pp.110–113. This book may also be viewed online on the website of the Missouri Secretary of State at sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/findingaids/miscMormonRecords.asp?rec=doc RHC above refers to The History of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
(Independence, MO: Herald House, 1967).
 
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1:8

One thing they both have in common is an “angel” who told them to “fix” the church with a totally different Gospel. :rolleyes: oh and JS claimed the apostles handed the keys to the kingdom over to him. Enough said…😉
 
codefro said:
Now…

both make similar claims about Christianity (lacking the full/ true/ complete message). Why would I choose Mormonism over Islam, or vice versa assuming I were to not be a Catholic any longer.

This is in the interest of dialogue btw. Not looking to transfer faiths.
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Well fundamentally, I think it comes down to who you think Jesus Christ is. While Mormonism obviously has important differences with traditional Christianity as far as the nature of God, the nature of Jesus Christ, etc., the fact is that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is their divine Savior, that we’re to follow His example, and that through His atoning sacrifice we can be forgiven of our sins, and receive eternal life. Islam does not believe any of that, and regard Jesus as a prophet.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
Well fundamentally, I think it comes down to who you think Jesus Christ is. While Mormonism obviously has important differences with traditional Christianity as far as the nature of God, the nature of Jesus Christ, etc., the fact is that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is their divine Savior, that we’re to follow His example, and that through His atoning sacrifice we can be forgiven of our sins, and receive eternal life. Islam does not believe any of that, and regard Jesus as a prophet.
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Muslims believe in Heaven and the possibility of getting there…

Yet God in the Koran resembles the God of the Bible more than the God of the BOM. In Islam 1 true God. In Christianity 1 true God. In Mormonism, multiple Gods even beyond Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. So Islam contains the idea of the 1 true God as Judaism and Christianity hold. Mormonism deviates heavily in the idea of the one true eternal God.
 
codefro said:
Muslims believe in Heaven and the possibility of getting there…

Yet God in the Koran resembles the God of the Bible more than the God of the BOM. In Islam 1 true God. In Christianity 1 true God. In Mormonism, multiple Gods even beyond Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. So Islam contains the idea of the 1 true God as Judaism and Christianity hold. Mormonism deviates heavily in the idea of the one true eternal God.
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Sure of course.

However the question I am responding to is why one would choose Mormonism over Islam (or vice versa), in light of both making similar claims, at least as far as apostasy is concerned.
 
Been a Catholic, this is almost impossible to answer, as I would not even dream of joining either religion, even if Christianity was no longer, cause Jesus has said the gates of hell will not destroy the church… ever, so it really is not easy.
Both so called prophets were hungry for power and to be followed, to the point of been worshipped, and I can not fathom joining a ‘religion’ that is started by this.
 
codefro said:
…
Now…

both make similar claims about Christianity (lacking the full/ true/ complete message). Why would I choose Mormonism over Islam, or vice versa assuming I were to not be a Catholic any longer.

This is in the interest of dialogue btw. Not looking to transfer faiths.
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I understand why you wish to have this dialogue. However, there is no magical wand that makes “not being a Catholic any longer” a defendable option. The very fabric of time and space were written in such a manner that only the true God of the primordial religion of Adam and Eve, of early Judaism and of modern Catholicism can be the true God. There is not much to discuss regarding which one makes the most sense, when both have such serious errors.

Being a Catholic is very similar to being an atheist in some ways. Atheists rightly look at most religions and see they ring hollow. To the Catholic, the vast majority religions are incomplete. The Catholic sees bits and pieces of the truth remaining, and the Atheist sees the occasional good moral. However, they Atheist gives up and thinks religion is futile. The Catholic sees room to evangelize. The Catholic sees hope!
 
runningdude said:
I understand why you wish to have this dialogue. However, there is no magical wand that makes “not being a Catholic any longer” a defendable option. The very fabric of time and space were written in such a manner that only the true God of the primordial religion of Adam and Eve, of early Judaism and of modern Catholicism can be the true God. There is not much to discuss regarding which one makes the most sense, when both have such serious errors.

Being a Catholic is very similar to being an atheist in some ways. Atheists rightly look at most religions and see they ring hollow. To the Catholic, the vast majority religions are incomplete. The Catholic sees bits and pieces of the truth remaining, and the Atheist sees the occasional good moral. However, they Atheist gives up and thinks religion is futile. The Catholic sees room to evangelize. The Catholic sees hope!
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I sense you do not even get the spirit of my question. Correct, there is no other on this earth that possesses the full truth other than the Holy Catholic Church. YET…

In the interest of pointing out to Mormons that the claims of Joseph Smith are on the same path as that of Muhammad, I created a FALSE scenario in order to make it possible to even answer the question. There really is no answer. The one answer I got was a very relative answer, not objective and true.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
the question… is why one would choose Mormonism over Islam (or vice versa), in light of both making similar claims, at least as far as apostasy is concerned.
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Yes.

FWIW, Mormonism and Islam are not the only religious groups making a similar claim regarding apostasy and restoration. At least to the extent I understand them, for example, Jehovah’s Witnesses make a similar claim. And let us not forget that the LDS are not the only folks who have laid claim to Joseph Smith’s restoration. Others would include, for example, the RLDS, which seems in a number of respects to be a good bit closer to traditional Christianity than the other groups named above.

If one presupposes an apostasy of some sort (which I obviously do not), the addition of other “restorationist” groups would make the question “which restoration group?” that much more difficult.
 
I sometimes pose this question, by the way, to LDS missionaries: “Even if I did believe in this apostasy, which I do not, why would I join you rather than the RLDS?”
 
aspirant said:
I sometimes pose this question, by the way, to LDS missionaries: “Even if I did believe in this apostasy, which I do not, why would I join you rather than the RLDS?”
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Interesting…

How do they answer that?
 
codefro said:
Interesting…

How do they answer that?
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They usually appeal to their personal testimony and/or change the subject.

In my admittedly limited experience, it seems that LDS missionaries are trained for a small number of planned encounters and kind of left to their own devices for anything else. They are woefully undertrained for conversing with faithful Catholics. You can really shake them up by answering “yes” to a question such as “Don’t you think the Church should be led by a prophet?” If you can successfully get them off script, you can teach them all sorts of good things. 🙂
 
aspirant said:
They usually appeal to their personal testimony and/or change the subject.

In my admittedly limited experience, it seems that LDS missionaries are trained for a small number of planned encounters and kind of left to their own devices for anything else. They are woefully undertrained for conversing with faithful Catholics. You can really shake them up by answering “yes” to a question such as “Don’t you think the Church should be led by a prophet?” If you can successfully get them off script, you can teach them all sorts of good things. 🙂
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I’ve noticed this as well. Very hard to get solid answers out of Mormons.
 
codefro said:
Very hard to get solid answers out of Mormons.
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Well, in the case of these LDS missionaries, I’m talking about folks in their late teens to early twenties, often with barely any theological training beyond what they got growing up at home and the missionary training center. I don’t exactly expect them to be adept. 🙂
 
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