Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

[Jim_Dandy]

In the Mormon scripture, Doctrine & Covenants, Section 132, the introduction says: “Revelation given through Joseph Smith . . . relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.”

D&C 132:4 - For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

But Utah’s desire for statehood was strong and President Wilford Woodruff, in his 1890 Manifesto, stated: " And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land."

So most Mormons eventually stopped practicing polygamy on earth (it is practiced, they believe, in heaven), but a minority clung to the original “revelation from God” through Joseph Smith, becoming known as Fundamentalist Mormons.

Warren Jeffs is in the news, and newscasters are careful to say that he is not affiliated with the Mormon church. True. He is a “Fundamentalist Mormon.” But polygamy is taught by Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, who wrote that one can’t get to heaven without it – at least not to the “celestial heaven.”

Jeffs may not have wanted to chance losing his opportunity in the afterlife to become a god and rule over his own kingdom and produce spirit children with his goddess wives forever by stopping the practice. So he (and others) have continued to live as polygamists…

Now Jeffs is off to prison for “marrying” underage girls as young as 12 and recording their “wedding night.” The practice of polygamy goes on in northern Arizona and on the Utah border, with older men taking young brides. And in San Angelo, TX, and elsewhere.

Texas prosecutors said at the sentencing phase they would present evidence that Jeffs had 78 wives in addition to his legal spouse. They said 24 of those were under 17.

msnbc.msn.com/id/44021900/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?ocid=ansmsnbc11

Will polygamy in America ever be stopped? Probably not. Will it ever be legal? Possibly. Shall we thank the Mormons for it? You be the judge.

Jim Dandy

 

[Ahimsa]

Will polygamy in America ever be stopped?

We don’t need Mormons for polygamy to exist. Polygamy has always existed, in two forms: (1) diachronic (or “serial monogamy”, quite common in America), or (2) synchronic (the patriarch Jacob, e.g.)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Warren Jeffs should spend the rest of his life in prison.

An interesting Mormon cultural thing coming from Jeffs and his followers is this thing that he is being “persecuted”. If you’ve followed the indictments against him and the first days of his trial, it would be some incredibly trumped up charges just for the sake of “persecution”. He’s employing this as a comparison of himself to Joseph Smith…see what a true prophet of God he is just like Joseph Smith?

The guy is a manipulative creep, that’s all there is to it.

 

[TheExorcist]

Warren Jeffs should spend the rest of his life in prison.

An interesting Mormon cultural thing coming from Jeffs and his followers is this thing that he is being “persecuted”. If you’ve followed the indictments against him and the first days of his trial, it would be some incredibly trumped up charges just for the sake of “persecution”. He’s employing this as a comparison of himself to Joseph Smith…see what a true prophet of God he is just like Joseph Smith?

The guy is a manipulative creep, that’s all there is to it.

The whole “persecution” thing is a Mormon reflex, almost as automatic as breathing or blinking. Rebecca, you probably know that well. It is used so frequently as to become ridiculous, as when Dallin H Oaks compares the church’s struggle against homosexuality to the civil rights struggles of African Americans, or when Warren Jeffs claiming persecution for raping little girls.

I have nothing against polygamy per se, to each their own. When you see the show Sister Wives it almost makes it look mainstream.

Prepare for the Mormon deluge…

 

[purplesunshine]

While the raid on the poligmay compound focused on sexually abused girls it failed to take into account the boys. If there is a natural 50/50 ratio of boys to girls and one man has 5 wives…well you do the math. Boys are “kept” as long as they are useful. Weaker boys are literally rounded up and dumped in cities anywhere from 10 to 18 years of age. My brother worked in Utah and spent many a night in a bar with “bands” of brothers who were former mormons. It finally clicked that these were not brothers but boys who’d been dumped. Their carefully tended to handicapped members and supported themselves in a world they didnt understand and had little or no exposure to.

So as dark as poligmay is…it gets even darker.

 

[Defender1]

We don’t need Mormons for polygamy to exist. Polygamy has always existed, in two forms: (1) diachronic (or “serial monogamy”, quite common in America), or (2) synchronic (the patriarch Jacob, e.g.)

Mormons sects are not the only ones involved in Polygamy your right. Even the presidents half brother is a polygamist in Kenya . But serial monogamy? Please explain .

 

[Corki]

Mormons sects are not the only ones involved in Polygamy your right. Even the presidents half brother is a polygamist in Kenya . But serial monogamy? Please explain .

I am not sure if this is the same thing as Ahimsa was alluding to but we have a lot of this in our area, especially with some immigrant populations. They leave a wife and kids, move to a new area and marry again without even a civil divorce from the first wife (sorry for the sexism but it’s almost always men - I don’t know of a single example of a woman who has done this). They are married to more than one wife (polygamy) but not living with both at the same time (serial monogomy).

Of course from a Catholic perspective, this happens whenever someone remarries after a civil divorce but no annullment.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Even if Mormonism never existed, we’d still probably see polygamy - after all, it is sanctioned in Islam. And Islam is one of the fastest-growing faiths in the United States.

 

[TheExorcist]

I am not sure if this is the same thing as Ahimsa was alluding to but we have a lot of this in our area, especially with some immigrant populations. They leave a wife and kids, move to a new area and marry again without even a civil divorce from the first wife (sorry for the sexism but it’s almost always men - I don’t know of a single example of a woman who has done this). They are married to more than one wife (polygamy) but not living with both at the same time (serial monogomy).

Of course from a Catholic perspective, this happens whenever someone remarries after a civil divorce but no annullment.

Yes from what I understand in some South American countries civil marriage and divorce doesn’t exist as we know it. I’ve had friends and relatives who have served (LDS) missions there and it’s a problem bc they can teach these people but cannot baptize them if they are not “married”

 

[zaffiroborant]

Mormons sects are not the only ones involved in Polygamy your right. Even the presidents half brother is a polygamist in Kenya . .

But in the US polygamists are primarily a result of the LDS church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

But in the US polygamists are primarily a result of the LDS church.

Possibly, however there are widespread and varied practices of polyamory, with claims of over 500,000 people in these type of relationships. Many of the relationships are essentially polygamous (polygyny, polyandry, open marriages, etc.). The relationships may or may not seek out formal civil or religious marriages. A current high profile example is Charlie Sheen and his “goddesses”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Possibly, however there are widespread and varied practices of polyamory, with claims of over 500,000 people in these type of relationships. Many of the relationships are essentially polygamous (polygyny, polyandry, open marriages, etc.). The relationships may or may not seek out formal civil or religious marriages. A current high profile example is Charlie Sheen and his “goddesses”.

The way I see it polyamory and polygamy are not the same thing. Palomory makes no claims to being a marriage only to being a claim on assets when a break up occurs. Polygamy on the other hand styles itself as legitimate marriage, something not claimed by Sheen and his “goddesses”.

 

[Dempsey1919]

This man is a paedophile and should spend the rest of his life in prison.

However, this is what I think about polygamy:

Now that so-called “gay marriage” is being legalised throughout the world, I do not see how laws against polygamy can remain. “Gay marriage” has weakened the status of traditional marriage; traditional marriage no longer has a unique and privileged status in society. If homosexual marriage is permitted, we must also permit other forms of non-traditional marriage such as polygamy, as long as they involve consenting adults.

 

[John_Pascendi]

In the Mormon scripture, Doctrine & Covenants, Section 132, the introduction says: “Revelation given through Joseph Smith . . . relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.”

D&C 132:4 - For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

But Utah’s desire for statehood was strong and President Wilford Woodruff, in his 1890 Manifesto, stated: " And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land."

So most Mormons eventually stopped practicing polygamy on earth (it is practiced, they believe, in heaven), but a minority clung to the original “revelation from God” through Joseph Smith, becoming known as Fundamentalist Mormons.

Warren Jeffs is in the news, and newscasters are careful to say that he is not affiliated with the Mormon church. True. He is a “Fundamentalist Mormon.” But polygamy is taught by Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, who wrote that one can’t get to heaven without it – at least not to the “celestial heaven.”

Jeffs may not have wanted to chance losing his opportunity in the afterlife to become a god and rule over his own kingdom and produce spirit children with his goddess wives forever by stopping the practice. So he (and others) have continued to live as polygamists…

Now Jeffs is off to prison for “marrying” underage girls as young as 12 and recording their “wedding night.” The practice of polygamy goes on in northern Arizona and on the Utah border, with older men taking young brides. And in San Angelo, TX, and elsewhere.

Texas prosecutors said at the sentencing phase they would present evidence that Jeffs had 78 wives in addition to his legal spouse. They said 24 of those were under 17.

msnbc.msn.com/id/44021900/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?ocid=ansmsnbc11

Will polygamy in America ever be stopped? Probably not. Will it ever be legal? Possibly. Shall we thank the Mormons for it? You be the judge.

Jim Dandy

…oh Lordy,78 wives…can just imagine his bathroom with all those silk stockings hanging in there to dry…sigh…Pas…

 

[FabiusMaximus]

This man is a paedophile and should spend the rest of his life in prison.

However, this is what I think about polygamy:

Now that so-called “gay marriage” is being legalised throughout the world, I do not see how laws against polygamy can remain. “Gay marriage” has weakened the status of traditional marriage; traditional marriage no longer has a unique and privileged status in society. If homosexual marriage is permitted, we must also permit other forms of non-traditional marriage such as polygamy, as long as they involve consenting adults.

Of course! There is no reason now to ban polygamy.
And the media is already trying to condition us for it. Recall the series “Big Love”? That was essentially an endorsement of polygamy.

And it will go further than that. What will happen when the definition of*** consenting adults*** mutates? What happens when the courts begin to allege that 12 year olds can be considered “consenting”?

You think that’s impossible? Well, that’s what they said about gay marriage, too!

 

[Dempsey1919]

And it will go further than that. What will happen when the definition of consenting adults mutates? What happens when the courts begin to allege that 12 year olds can be considered “consenting”?

I don’t think anything is impossible, especially in Europe. 50 years ago, nobody would have believed you if you had told them that two men would be able to get married and adopt children! If that can happen, anything can. They’re already talking about sex education for children as young as 5 or 6.

As far as I’m concerned, homosexual marriage is far worse than polygamy. I don’t support polygamy, but as I don’t see how polygamy can continue to be banned when marriage is already under attack by the materialistic athiests and militant homosexuals.

I do not condone the actions of Warren Jeffs. The point I am trying to make is that homosexual marriage altered the meaning of marriage within the law. That being the case, I think laws against polygamy will not stand the test of time.

 

[KathleenGee]

Most countries in the world are set up to support the marriage of one man and one woman, and to allow polygamous marriages is to allow for a greater drain through taxation on households, married or not, to provide social services to polygamous ones.

Polygamy is a great drain on the earnings of a household. In Lebanon, there is the usual strong jealousy and envy towards the economic middle class that is primarily Christian. They tell us they spend time explaining to non-Christian men the benefits of being monogamous and how it provides greater care for each member of the family.

Already there is abuse coming to our economic system in Western countries now seeing polygamous families of men with no great means having a number of wives and children and the state having to cover them, which means the citizens.

You can’t think ideas in isolation. Ideas always will come into action that bear good or bad fruit…meaning that which takes lawfully away from another.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The way I see it polyamory and polygamy are not the same thing. Palomory makes no claims to being a marriage only to being a claim on assets when a break up occurs. Polygamy on the other hand styles itself as legitimate marriage, something not claimed by Sheen and his “goddesses”.

I have known people in polyamorous relationships, and there is no one way of looking at them all as one relationship fits all. Some purposely remain emotionally unattached, others view their relationships with all involved as a strong commitment, on par in every way with a common-law marriage. That is the sense I get from Charlie Sheen and his goddesses, by what they have said in public interviews…they are in a committed polyamorous relationship. Nothing different about it at all, the mindset is the same as a polygamous relationship.

The difference I do see with the Mormon version of polygamy, is they have put a divine decree behind it, with associated cultural practices, such as marriage rites and how they dress. There are a few non-Mormon Christian polygamous groups that do the same thing. Secular polyamory makes no such claim, and culturally, are no different than any other American. You wouldn’t know a person is in such a relationship, unless they told you, or you knew them. Generally, they keep low key, fearing that they’ll be targeted, worried over things like their children being removed from their homes. This is changing, and I think you’ll see more and more of these groups “outing” themselves. Such as has been seen with the TV show “Sister Wives”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have known people in polyamorous relationships, and there is no one way of looking at them all as one relationship fits all. Some purposely remain emotionally unattached, others view their relationships with all involved as a strong commitment, on par in every way with a common-law marriage. That is the sense I get from Charlie Sheen and his goddesses, by what they have said in public interviews…they are in a committed polyamorous relationship. Nothing different about it at all, the mindset is the same as a polygamous relationship.

The difference I do see with the Mormon version of polygamy, is they have put a divine decree behind it, with associated cultural practices, such as marriage rites and how they dress. There are a few non-Mormon Christian polygamous groups that do the same thing. Secular polyamory makes no such claim, and culturally, are no different than any other American. You wouldn’t know a person is in such a relationship, unless they told you, or you knew them. Generally, they keep low key, fearing that they’ll be targeted, worried over things like their children being removed from their homes. This is changing, and I think you’ll see more and more of these groups “outing” themselves. Such as has been seen with the TV show “Sister Wives”.

I guess I just have to categorize things

Marriage and polygamy in one column, living together and polyamory in another.

 

[rmcmullan]

The FLDS were so twisted, you really ought to leave them out of any discussion of polygamy.

I’ve just finished reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop. She was raised as a faithful member of the FLDS community and married to Merril Jessop, a high ranking member of the FLDS. She writes about Warren Jeffs, her life and her eventual escape. She was the first FLDS woman to have only succeeded, e.g. being able to keep her children and stay out.

If anyone has any doubt about the FLDS or Warren Jeffs, rest assured he was a monster of the worse sort who turned the FLDS community into a degenerate cult of the worse kind. Carolyn Jessop details a non-stop stream of abuse, both physical and emotional of the woman and children even before Warren Jeffs. He just extended it to the men.

The FLDS was polygamous but that was just the way an evil man exerted his hold on an otherwise naive people. Their particular practice of it was so toxic I don’t think you can drew much conclusion.

At first I was skeptical because–well, you can find unhappy marriages under any system. Even if you consider her disgruntled and unhappy, she provides a lot of objective evidence of abuse that cannot be ignored. And IMHO, she’s a credible witness. It was shortly after her escape and meeting with the Utah attorney general that Utah seized their property and they fled both AZ and UT.