Mormonism: Restoration of Ancient Christian Church?

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor;10582503:

In my research I have NEVER found an ECF before Athanasius who denied that we were to become what Christ is/was.

Arguments from ignorance are very common in Mormon thinking.

Stephen168,
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am saying that numerous ECF said in various ways, “men can become gods.”
I am then saying that no ECF every placed a limit upon the final state of men made gods. They are gods just as Christ is God in the end state per all ECF who write about men becoming gods before Athanasuis.
I am not arguing from ignorance, I am arguing from total absence of any evidence of what Catholics believe today. It is not there.

I am then challenging any Catholic to find it. Please justify your believe with what the ECF before Athanasius taught!

If anybody can find a place where and ECF before Athanasius limits the final state of deified man, I will be surprised and I will read. NOBODY EVER DOES

Again:
If anybody can find a place where and ECF before Athanasius limits the final state of deified man, I will be surprised and I will read. NOBODY EVER DOES.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

stephen168,
perhaps you misunderstood me. I am saying that numerous ecf said in various ways, “men can become gods.”
i am then saying that no ecf every placed a limit upon the final state of men made gods. They are gods just as christ is god in the end state per all ecf who write about men becoming gods before athanasuis.
i am not arguing from ignorance, i am arguing from total absence of any evidence of what catholics believe today. It is not there.

i am then challenging any catholic to find it. Please justify your believe with what the ecf before athanasius taught!

again:
if anybody can find a place where and ecf before athanasius limits the final state of deified man, i will be surprised and i will read. Nobody ever does.
charity, tom

and if you can show me which version of the vision you choose and where zerehemla is i would appreciate it, but no mormon ever does

 

[kimg901]

here is a link to what tom is wanting. It doesnt talk alot but, well read it I guess.
romereturn.blogspot.com/2009/11/lds-view-of-deification-and-athanasius.html

 

[TOmNossor]

I don’t know why you’re having trouble understanding. It really isn’t as difficult as you are making it.

The mormon church claimed a “total” apostasy. You came up with your own definition of “total” which is not in keeping with the accepted definition.

Since a “total” apostasy, as in “complete” never occurred, a restoration is not, has not, and will not be needed.

In order for mormonism to be true and exist, it relies on the apostasy to be “total”, as in complete. Since that has not occurred, mormonism, cannot be true.

What we have heard alot of is your opinions or thoughts, and nothing of substance.

As I said in an earlier post, since mormonism fails on the “total” apostasy, anything past that is irrelevant, and just noise.

If you want to assert things about JS, then I will assert that he was a false prophet and an egomaniac (nicer than I wanted to say. ) It only takes one failed prophesy to make someone a false prophet. JS had numerous failed prophesies.

He also bragged about doing more to keep a church together than even Jesus. That didn’t work out for him too well either.

Couple all of this with his criminal activities, and trials, etc. I wouldn’t be bragging on him too much.

Just sayin…
First,I do not agree that Joseph had numerous failed prophesies, but for any that one might site I believe Joseph stands with Old Testament prophets like Jonah. You may research this or start you own thread it is off topic.
And,I also have no desire to explain what Joseph is recorded as saying by those present concerning holding together a church. He almost certainly said something he should not have said IMO, but he was specifically building off a similar statement by Paul. Again, you may research this or start your own thread, it is off topic.

Concerning the topic of this thread:
My point is that the CoJCoLDS does not fail on an inability to prove to your satisfaction a “total apostasy.” With no evidence of an apostasy sufficient evidence of a restoration could prove an apostasy necessarily.
I am further saying that whatever you want to call it, if there is no valid baptism on the earth and no valid sacraments/covenants then there must be a restoration. If Peterine authority is required for God’s church and all churches lack it, this is a condition that requires a restoration (whatever you want to call the condition).
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TexanKnight:
and if you can show me which version of the vision you choose and where zerehemla is i would appreciate it, but no mormon ever does
I do not know where. Nahom, Bountiful, and Jerusalem yes. For the new world I generally embrace thoughts from Brant Gardner and John Sorenson. This is also off topic though.

It does not change the fact that the ECF before Athanasius taught deification as I believe it and not as the modern Catholic Church believes it.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

here is a link to what tom is wanting. It doesnt talk alot but, well read it I guess.
romereturn.blogspot.com/2009/11/lds-view-of-deification-and-athanasius.html

wow…excellent article. Thanks.

Blows Tom’s position out of the water

 

[kimg901]

First,I do not agree that Joseph had numerous failed prophesies, but for any that one might site I believe Joseph stands with Old Testament prophets like Jonah. You may research this or start you own thread it is off topic.
And,I also have no desire to explain what Joseph is recorded as saying by those present concerning holding together a church. He almost certainly said something he should not have said IMO, but he was specifically building off a similar statement by Paul. Again, you may research this or start your own thread, it is off topic.

When did Paul ever say he did more for his church than Jesus?

Concerning the topic of this thread:
My point is that the CoJCoLDS does not fail on an inability to prove to your satisfaction a “total apostasy.” With no evidence of an apostasy sufficient evidence of a restoration could prove an apostasy necessarily.

Your church fails miserably when trying to prove an apostacy because they and you are saying Christ was not who He says He is and His Words are false.
I am further saying that whatever you want to call it, if there is no valid baptism on the earth and no valid sacraments/covenants then there must be a restoration. If Peterine authority is required for God’s church and all churches lack it, this is a condition that requires a restoration (whatever you want to call the condition).
Charity, TOm

 

[kimg901]

I do not know where. Nahom, Bountiful, and Jerusalem yes. For the new world I generally embrace thoughts from Brant Gardner and John Sorenson. This is also off topic though.

It does not change the fact that the ECF before Athanasius taught deification as I believe it and not as the modern Catholic Church believes it.
Charity, TOm

Bountiful is about 45 minutes from where I live. Nice little town.

 

[TOmNossor]

Again, we partake in divine grace but we do not become gods.

The focus is to be a humble servant of the Lord, to be delivered from sin and corruption, and the divine life that He shares with us. Likewise early Church fathers always refer to the One True God and Creator. So there is no other God but Him.

The Old Testament speaks very clearly all throughout that there is the One True God of Israel. The ancient Greeks believed in some sort of form of pre mortal existence, but Pope Benedict spoke of how the Church heavily criticized such thinking, not to necessarily to condemn such beliefs but to transform such beliefs into that which reflects the truth of God and us.
Catholics claim that men become gods. It is in the CCC. What is at issue here is what that claim means. I believe I follow the pre-Athansius ECF in my believe and Catholic follow a developed view.
I need to return to real life. I hope Faith and Certitude is in my mailbox.
Also, concerning deification I recommend to you Deification and Grace by Keating.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

I do not know where. Nahom, Bountiful, and Jerusalem yes. For the new world I generally embrace thoughts from Brant Gardner and John Sorenson. This is also off topic though.

It does not change the fact that the ECF before Athanasius taught deification as I believe it and not as the modern Catholic Church believes it.
Charity, TOm

Really? Where is Nahom and Bountiful. And please, only list places agreed upon by geographers/ scientists who are NOT LDS…

And no, it is not off topic as it goes to why you make the points you make…

and the article Kim posted a link to answers and destroys your other points.

Next?

 

[TOmNossor]

wow…excellent article. Thanks.

Blows Tom’s position out of the water

Did you read it? Of course I participated in the conversation so I read it long ago. Don’t know what you are refering to though.
You should read it.
Charity, TOm

 

[kimg901]

Catholics claim that men become gods. It is in the CCC. What is at issue here is what that claim means. I believe I follow the pre-Athansius ECF in my believe and Catholic follow a developed view.
I need to return to real life. I hope Faith and Certitude is in my mailbox.
Also, concerning deification I recommend to you Deification and Grace by Keating.
Charity, TOm

I know what you are talking about in the CCC. I dont have mine handy right now but I think it says we may become like God in a sense that we will be sinless.

 

[TexanKnight]

Did you read it? Of course I participated in the conversation so I read it long ago. Don’t know what you are refering to though.
You should read it.
Charity, TOm

I did…as I said…it blows your position out of the water.

Maybe you should come up with another 8 versions of your position…

 

[kimg901]

Did you read it? Of course I participated in the conversation so I read it long ago. Don’t know what you are refering to though.
You should read it.
Charity, TOm

So now that it has been read and your point brought to light, you now say you dont know what TK is refering to? Typical. Plus I havent gotten any responses from you about my comments. Care to comment on them Tom?

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:
Catholics claim that men become gods. It is in the CCC. What is at issue here is what that claim means. I believe I follow the pre-Athansius ECF in my believe and Catholic follow a developed view.
I need to return to real life. I hope Faith and Certitude is in my mailbox.
Also, concerning deification I recommend to you Deification and Grace by Keating.
Charity, TOm
I know what you are talking about in the CCC. I dont have mine handy right now but I think it says we may become like God in a sense that we will be sinless.
Actually it has this phrase, “make men gods.”
I must go.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

Actually it has this phrase, “make men gods.”
I must go.
Charity, TOm

Yes…in the sense that we will be sinless and live forever. Not in the sense that the LDS god was once a sinful man

don’t run yet

 

[kimg901]

Actually it has this phrase, “make men gods.”
I must go.
Charity, TOm

Now do you understand that men interpet words the way they want them to sound or say? You are right in what it says about make men gods but as TK pointed out, we will be sinless and live forever which is in Scripture (Well live forever in the presence of God in which we cannot if we have sin)

 

[Porknpie]

**Catholics claim that men become gods. It is in the CCC. **

Please site the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says this.

 

[TexanKnight]

Please site the paragraph in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that says this.

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

 

[twopekinguys]

First,I do not agree that Joseph had numerous failed prophesies, but for any that one might site I believe Joseph stands with Old Testament prophets like Jonah. You may research this or start you own thread it is off topic.
And,I also have no desire to explain what Joseph is recorded as saying by those present concerning holding together a church. He almost certainly said something he should not have said IMO, but he was specifically building off a similar statement by Paul. Again, you may research this or start your own thread, it is off topic.

Concerning the topic of this thread:
My point is that the CoJCoLDS does not fail on an inability to prove to your satisfaction a “total apostasy.” With no evidence of an apostasy sufficient evidence of a restoration could prove an apostasy necessarily.
I am further saying that whatever you want to call it, if there is no valid baptism on the earth and no valid sacraments/covenants then there must be a restoration. If Peterine authority is required for God’s church and all churches lack it, this is a condition that requires a restoration (whatever you want to call the condition).
Charity, TOm

Great dodge on the Smith failed prophecies. But that is to be expected. I can of course provide you with a list of some of them if you like.

Yes, mormonism does fail on the total apostasy claim. Mormons make the claim, but they can’t prove it. Instead they change the definition of the word “total”, or they change their claim to a “partial” apostasy.

Your comments about valid sacraments etc. is immaterial, because the Church didn’t go into a total apostasy as claimed. So, actually, it would make the mormon ordinances invalid since there was no restoration.

Mormon baptisms would then fall under the category of playing in the water.

Again, it is the mormon claim that their was a total apostasy yet it has never been proven. The burden of proof is on you, and you have failed to provide it. All we have received is alot of “your” assumptions.

Good try though.

O,