Mormonism salvation favors the wealthy?

[lukewarm]

I was thinking about this and Mormonism requires that one be a full tither in order to recieve a Temple recommend. That is 10% of your income as we all know.

Without a temple recommend you can’t recieve your endowment, and participate in the Temple rituals, this will close off a temple marriage, sealings etc… to you. Leaving you without the possibility of the Celestial Kingdom (highest level of Heaven where only uber Mormons go).

Now if you take two families one the income level is $32,000 yearly, that requires a tithe of $3,200 leaving that family with $28,800 to live on. Now take another family with an income level of $200,000 which requires a $20,000 yearly tithe leaving that family with $180,000 to live on. That wealthy family in this case has a MUCH easier time to come up with that tithe than does the lower middle class family who would be struggling greatly on $32,000 a year as it was.

So since full tithe is essentially a requirement for salvation, does Mormonism favor the wealthy?

 

[why_me]

This may seem true at first glance but actually it is not. The poor who pay tithing will receive an armful of church aid if they so need it. However, it is common lds belief that if a member pays a full tithe he or she will be blessed by the lord. And this does seem to be the case. I have never known a hungry mormon.

 

[lukewarm]

Why Me, Utah, and other states with high concentrations of Mormons also have the highest rate of forclosures and bankruptcy. Utah had a foreclosure rate of 1 every 216 households, which is off the charts. So the idea that the tithe doesn’t affect the working class more than the wealthy is a fallacy IMO.

 

[dosdog]

UTAH – a Hotbed of Recruiting MLM’s, or Chain Selling Schemes
Because Dr. Jon Taylor of the Consumer Awareness Institute has spent most of his life in Utah, he has become intimately familiar with MLM activity and regulation (or the lack thereof) in his home state. His reports and observations have application to consumers and law enforcement officials in other states who may not wish to repeat the same mistakes.

1. Utah leads the nation in number of MLM companies per capita. Although Utah is Dr. Taylor’s home state, he is forced to admit that Utah leads the nation in density of MLM companies headquartered in the state; i.e., there are more companies based in Utah per capita than in any other state in the country. And there is not a county in the U.S. that holds a close second place to Utah County. Almost all of these can be classified as “recruiting MLM’s” which are explained on the MLM CONSUMER GUIDES page. For a recent listing of Utah-based MLM’s with at least four of the “5 Red Flags of a recruiting MLM” in their compensation plans, click here. Read about curious parallels between MLM and genealogy – which is emphasized by Latter-day Saints, especially in Utah, which has the largest genealogical facilities in the world…
2. Product-based pyramid schemes are now legal in Utah. Utah narrowly escaped efforts by the DSA (Direct Selling Association) to legalize product-base pyramid schemes in its 2005 legislative session. But in 2006, using an array of deceptive legislative maneuvers, and with the complicity of top law enforcement officials, the DSA manipulated the 2006 legislature into passing a cleverly worded bill (SB182) – essentially nullifying Utah’s Pyramid Scheme Act. Read the article “Product-based pyramid schemes now legal in Utah.” A lot of insights can be learned from the genesis of this travesty of legislation, resulting in a bill that could have costly consequences for consumers world wide – as these chain selling schemes quickly spread across borders into other states and countries.
   mlm-thetruth.com/Utah_hotbed.htm

 

[ApostateRLDS]

Why Me, Utah, and other states with high concentrations of Mormons also have the highest rate of forclosures and bankruptcy. Utah had a foreclosure rate of 1 every 216 households, which is off the charts. So the idea that the tithe doesn’t affect the working class more than the wealthy is a fallacy IMO.

Especially when the TBM’s are told by the GA’s to pay tithing before anything else, and that they will be financially blessed by paying tithes.

 

[lukewarm]

Call me a cynic but I get a bit of a kick out Churches requiring a tithe (LDS isn’'t the only one). Practically every other Old Testament law has been abandoned in the New Covenant but the tithe stays, surprise surprise…

In todays world requiring 10% of your pre tax income is borderline impossible for young families trying to make ends meat.

 

[why_me]

Call me a cynic but I get a bit of a kick out Churches requiring a tithe (LDS isn’'t the only one). Practically every other Old Testament law has been abandoned in the New Covenant but the tithe stays, surprise surprise…

In todays world requiring 10% of your pre tax income is borderline impossible for young families trying to make ends meat.

And yet, many parishes would love it for if their parishers would give 10% as the bible says to do. Most catholics give a dollar in the basket. Not much. And this why, many RCC’s are in poverty. Whereas, lds local churches are in no financial turmoil.

 

[why_me]

Why Me, Utah, and other states with high concentrations of Mormons also have the highest rate of forclosures and bankruptcy. Utah had a foreclosure rate of 1 every 216 households, which is off the charts. So the idea that the tithe doesn’t affect the working class more than the wealthy is a fallacy IMO.

The problem is with the Utah mormons. They seem to be good capitalists in accumulating material goods. The lds leaders have repeatedly warned against materialism but to no avail. The Utah Mormons are an enigma as they seem to equate material goods with blessings.

 

[lukewarm]

And yet, many parishes would love it for if their parishers would give 10% as the bible says to do. Most catholics give a dollar in the basket. Not much. And this why, many RCC’s are in poverty. Whereas, lds local churches are in no financial turmoil.

I would argue your findings that LDS Churches “aren’t in financial turmoil” since they do not release any financials that is impossible to know. And the reason Catholics are in poverty doesn’t have anything to do with tithing or not tithing. Historically even when Catholics tithed poverty still existed everywhere.

The Bible says a lot of things we are no longer required to do, especially for salvation, tithing is just one more Old Testament law that is no longer required. At least I don’t think it is, if it is then why doesn’t the CC require it?

And lastly maybe Catholics give a dollar because they’re sick of seeing the Church pay out hundreds of millions of dollars for the actions of perverts?

 

[dosdog]

The problem is with the Utah mormons. They seem to be good capitalists in accumulating material goods. The lds leaders have repeatedly warned against materialism but to no avail. The Utah Mormons are an enigma as they seem to equate material goods with blessings.

City Creek Mall - The Mormon Mall - Downtown Salt Lake City
A Nordsrom executive see’s the Mormon $1.5 billion mall as a huge fiasco

The $1 to $1.5 billion price tag cited for the City Creek Center is more than the cost to build most of the resorts on the Las Vegas Strip. The Bellagio was reported to have cost $1.6 billion. The church states that no tithing money is being used for construction of the complex. They say the entire project is being financed through the church’s commercial real-estate arm, Property Reserve. Critics point to the definition of a non-profit religious organization and note that regardless of whether the church claims the project is funded directly by member contributions or indirectly by the proceeds of investing these contributions into other businesses, that the ultimate source of the funding is still member contributions.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center

Note: The Mormon Church is more interested in shopping malls and cattle ranches than in helping the poor. By its own admission, the Mormon Church gave $60,000,000 in humanitarian aid last year. It is spending 15 times that for shopping malls.

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon403.htm

 

[why_me]

Note: The Mormon Church is more interested in shopping malls and cattle ranches than in helping the poor. By its own admission, the Mormon Church gave $60,000,000 in humanitarian aid last year. It is spending 15 times that for shopping malls.

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon403.htm

The lds headquarters is in salt lake city. This being the case, the lds church has an interest in downtown salt lake by keeping it vibrant and safe from disrepair like other US cities. The Mall is a good investment and the money spent on it did not come from tithing. The lds church does much for the poor but does so without fanfare. The website you posted is an antimormon site, designed to destroy the lds church. I would not give them to much credit.

The catholic church recently opened an airline for pilgrims. And I am sure, the catholic church also spends money on business adventures.

 

[zerinus]

Call me a cynic but I get a bit of a kick out Churches requiring a tithe (LDS isn’'t the only one). Practically every other Old Testament law has been abandoned in the New Covenant but the tithe stays, surprise surprise…

I can’t speak for other churches; but we practice the law of tithing because it has been commanded to us by the Lord, not because it is in the Old Testament. Other churches have probably borrowed the idea from us. You will find the commandment in D&C 119 and 64:23.

At first the Church was commanded to live the law of consecration, which is a higher law. But the saints were not prepared to live it at that time; therefore the law was changed to tithing.

In todays world requiring 10% of your pre tax income is borderline impossible for young families trying to make ends meat.

I suggest you only speak for yourself, not for other people. I have never heard anyone paying tithing that has complained about it. To us paying tithing is a privilege and a blessing. It is a way of demonstrating our faith in the Lord and in His promises. There are promises associated with paying tithing. Here is one:

Malachi 3:

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

LDS who faithfully pay their tithing testify that these blessings are fulfilled in their lives. These blessings are not just temporal. The greatest of them are in fact spiritual.

zerinus

 

[dosdog]

Is Tithing for Sedakah (Maaser Kesafim) a Torah Law or Rabbinic Law?
The Bach 18 and other authorities 19 write that tithing ones income is neither a Torah law or a Rabbinical law, for the following reasons:

Most of the great early Rabbinic authorities do not bring down this law.

It is true that the Sifri, Midrash Tanhuma and Yalkut Shimoni all quote this law but why did the Talmud not quote it? The Talmud Yerushalmi 20 says that we are not allowed to learn halachah from stories or from additional material, only from the Talmud.
The law of tithing agricultural produce and giving it to the poor (maaser ani) is a law from the Torah and yet the Torah only obligates this on the third and sixth years of the shemittah cycle and not every year. If the Rabbis did make this law of tithing for sedakah based on the verse quoted by the Sifri it would be logical to make it exactly the same as the Torah law of maaser ani.

Even the Rambam and Shulhan Aruch who quote the law of the Sifri end off that a person should not give less than three shekels a year. We see that they hold that tithing is not a requirement of Jewish law and is therefore not obligatory. Giving three shekel a year is however mandatory, because it is a requirement of Jewish law.

If maaser kesafim is obligatory why do the majority of Jews not observe it, we only find that one or two people in a city give a tenth of their profits to sedakah.
The Talmud 21 does discuss the verse that is the source for the Sifri’s rule of tithing income and does not learn the same rule from it.

Maharam of Rottenburg agrees with the Bach that Maaser kesafim is neither a Torah Law or a Rabbinical law but says that it is a custom.

home.earthlink.net/~etzahaim/halakha/tithing.html
1 Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also. 2 On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.

7 Every one as he hath determined in his heart, not with sadness, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give. 9 Do not possess gold, nor silver, nor money in your purses

11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it alone, and suffer it to rest, that the poor of thy people may eat, and whatsoever shall be left, let the beasts of the field eat it: so shalt thou do with thy vineyard and thy oliveyard.-When is the last time you did this?

5 What the ground shall bring forth of itself, thou shalt not reap: neither shalt thou gather the grapes of the firstfruits as a vintage: for it is a year of rest to the land:-Bet you havent done this either

10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

I think we have just established the fact zerinus does not keep the LAW

 

[Delphinus85]

actually I have to say it doesn’t, simply because the church makes it possible for people TO tithe. The mormon church is by far the best as taking care of their own, so to speak. College tuition is basically free for BYU and BYU-I, food and housing is cared for and so on. The required tithe (although I disagree with their theology, tithing being only a small hill of beans) ensures that the church can do this. This is one of the reasons they are the FASTEST growing faith in america, and around the globe.

No I don’t agree with mormons, but they make a good example in taking care of their poor so all can contribute.

 

[dosdog]

actually I have to say it doesn’t, simply because the church makes it possible for people TO tithe. The mormon church is by far the best as taking care of their own, so to speak. College tuition is basically free for BYU and BYU-I, food and housing is cared for and so on. The required tithe (although I disagree with their theology, tithing being only a small hill of beans) ensures that the church can do this. This is one of the reasons they are the FASTEST growing faith in america, and around the globe.

No I don’t agree with mormons, but they make a good example in taking care of their poor so all can contribute.

Catholic Charities USA is the membership association of one of the nation’s largest social service networks. Catholic Charities agencies and institutions nationwide provide vital social services to people in need, regardless of their religious, social, or economic backgrounds. Catholic Charities USA supports and enhances the work of its membership by providing networking opportunities, national advocacy and media efforts, program development, training and technical assistance, and financial support. Founded in 1910 as the National Conference of Catholic Charities, Catholic Charities USA is located near the nation’s capital in Alexandria, VA.
charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?keyword_list=catholic+charities&bay=search.results&overallrtg=4

 

[Lehl]

actually I have to say it doesn’t, simply because the church makes it possible for people TO tithe. The mormon church is by far the best as taking care of their own, so to speak. College tuition is basically free for BYU and BYU-I, food and housing is cared for and so on. The required tithe (although I disagree with their theology, tithing being only a small hill of beans) ensures that the church can do this. This is one of the reasons they are the FASTEST growing faith in america, and around the globe.

No I don’t agree with mormons, but they make a good example in taking care of their poor so all can contribute.

“Tuition at BYU is basically free” NOT! Maybe for the families of General Authorities.

And you’re exactly right that “The mormon church is by far the best as taking care of their own” but that is almost only what they exclusively do…Catholics take care of everyone, not just our own.

You are misled about Mormonism being the “FASTEST growing faith in America and around the globe.”

It is not. That has been a popular myth perpetuated by the rank and file Mormons. My in-laws tried to use it on me, so maybe I would think it was true and convert? It didn’t work and it wasn’t true (the church OR that rumor )

 

[ApostateRLDS]

According to the Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS church, the best way out of financial hardship is to pay tithing:

Some of you have money problems. I know that. There is never enough money in your homes. I know that. You are struggling to get along. What is the cure? The only thing I know of is payment of tithing – Gordon B. Hinckley, March 2004 Ensign

Now, I only had two semesters of accounting in college, but even I know it’s ludicrous to suggest to people struggling with money-problems to burden themselves with more financial obligations. IMHO, either the leadership of the LDS church is so self-deluded that it’s lost its grip on reality(which I doubt), or it’s a cynical attempt to ensure people to pay up regardless of their financial difficulties.

With thinking like this in leadership of the LDS, it makes me wonder if money isn’t more important to the Mormon GA’s than their own people. If it is, how can anybody say that salvation via Mormonism doesn’t favor the wealty.? It sure couldn’t favor the poor.

:

 

[Delphinus85]

Catholic Charities USA is the membership association of one of the nation’s largest social service networks. Catholic Charities agencies and institutions nationwide provide vital social services to people in need, regardless of their religious, social, or economic backgrounds. Catholic Charities USA supports and enhances the work of its membership by providing networking opportunities, national advocacy and media efforts, program development, training and technical assistance, and financial support. Founded in 1910 as the National Conference of Catholic Charities, Catholic Charities USA is located near the nation’s capital in Alexandria, VA.
charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?keyword_list=catholic+charities&bay=search.results&overallrtg=4

oh I don’t doubt catholic charities. They are probably the most well known or being charitable. It’s just in mormon churches, if someone can’t pay their rent one month, the church will pitch in and help pay it for them, and cases like that. It’s a little more open to everyone without a ton of paperwork. shrugs I say this only because my family is all mormon and so are some of my friends and I’ve heard their stories. I’m not saying everyone else is wrong, I’m just saying they are really good

 

[dosdog]

oh I don’t doubt catholic charities. They are probably the most well known or being charitable. It’s just in mormon churches, if someone can’t pay their rent one month, the church will pitch in and help pay it for them, and cases like that. It’s a little more open to everyone without a ton of paperwork. shrugs I say this only because my family is all mormon and so are some of my friends and I’ve heard their stories. I’m not saying everyone else is wrong, I’m just saying they are really good

Emergencies
Peru 19/2007 - Emergency Appeal (EA) n. 19/2007 Earthquake in Peru LAUNCHED ON: 20/08/207 TYPE OF EMERGENCY: Natural Man-made PHASE OF EMERGENCY RESPONSE COVERED BY THE APPLICATION: Rapid response phase, or Emergency, early … - >>>

Bangladesh 18/2007 - Bangladesh 18/07 – Flood Emergency Relief and Rehabilitation Given the magnitude of the monsoon flood devastation, Caritas Bangladesh has launched an additional appeal for US$1.5 million to provide emergency food and livelihood support to another 10,000 … - >>>

Nepal 17/07 – Flood Appeal - Caritas Nepal has launched a US$500,000 appeal to assist 10,000 families affected by flooding and landslides triggered by monsoon rains. More than 70 people have lost their lives and some 37,270 households – more than 200,000 people – have … - >>>

India - 16/07 - Floods - FLOOD EMERGENCY APPEAL 2007 Heavy rains in many parts of India (Kerala, Andhra, Maharastra, Gujarat , Assam , West Bengal and Orissa) resulted in nearly 400 people losing their lives. Nearly 2.5 million people were affected due to the floods in 102 … - >>>

Pakistan - 15/07 - Cyclone / Floods / Rains (Immediate Relief Phase) - Floods in Pakistan Caritas has launched an appeal for $ US one million for recovery efforts in Pakistan , after flooding affected millions of people. Heavy rains, flash floods, and dam breakages caused by Cyclone Yemyin’s landfall on June 26 … - >>>

Bangladesh - 14/07 - Landslides / Flash Floods (Recovery / Rehabilitation Phase) - Appeal for recovery efforts following landslides and floods in Bangladesh Caritas is launching an appeal for US$800,000 for reconstruction efforts after a series of landslides and floods in Bangladesh left thousands homeless. On 17 June, landslides … - >>>

Caritas Internationalis is a confederation of 162 Catholic relief, development and social service organisations working to build a better world, especially for the poor and oppressed, in over 200 countries and territories.

Caritas works without regard to creed, race, gender, or ethnicity, and is one of the world’s largest humanitarian networks.

Caritas provides a beacon of hope for tens of millions of women, men and children in times of hardship and contributes to the development of social justice in times of peace. Caritas’ mandate includes integral development, emergency relief, advocacy, peace building, respect for human rights and support for proper stewardship of the planet’s environment and resources.

The Caritas approach is based on the social teaching of the Church, which focuses on the dignity of the human person. Caritas’ work on behalf of the poor manifests God’s love for all of creation.

Caritas believes that the weak and oppressed are not objects of pity, but agents of change leading the struggle to eradicate dehumanizing poverty, unacceptable living and working conditions, and unjust social, political, economic and cultural structures.

caritas.org/
Matthew 25 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[BartBurk]

Most people who Mormonism considers likely to be saved never pay any tithing. These are the people who never heard of Mormonism when they were alive and then receive salvation from a Mormon baptism for the dead after they are in the “spirit world.” That doesn’t even account for the millions who have died prior to the age of 8 who are automatically saved because they didn’t live long enough. The best thing that can happen to you from a Mormon point of view is to never have heard of Mormonism until after you’re dead. More poor people are likely to be saved than rich people simply because there are more poor people. And the Mormon missionaries really are out there looking for anyone but the poor. We were actively discouraged from trying to convert poor people when I was a missionary – we were told to knock doors in middle class-rich areas for safety reasons if nothing else.