The OP in this thread makes a nice addition to the list of “evidences” for the Apostasy that actually condemn the LDS as badly, if not worse, than historic Christianity, and I believe that was the gist of the poster’s intention.
Thank you. Yes, my intention was addressing a specific argument made by many LDS: that without living apostles and prophets, Christianity splintered and went into disarray. However, with the supposed restoration of those living apostles and prophets, we still see that the LDS movement (I use that phrase as an umbrella term referring to the dozens of churches that claim origination in the restoration of Joseph Smith) has splintered and gone into disarray to a great degree within its less than 200 year history. I also note that Catholics certainly do not make an equivalent argument.
It has been said by many a Mormon that historic Christianity has changed the sacred ordinances of baptism and matrimony, and that this is evidence of the apostasy. But what about the LDS alterations to the Temple Endowment, posthumous baptisms, and plural marriage? Are these not also evidences then of an LDS apostasy?
I agree. When LDS bring up the idea that without the living apostles and prophets, Christians changed ordinances (such as the purported change in the form of baptism from immersion to “sprinkling”), it seems as if this is based on the idea that the form or mode of ordinances should not change. However, the clearest example of an equivalent situation in Mormonism is with the clear evolution in the Initiatory washing and anointing ordinance in the temple, which is now only a symbolic washing and anointing (when previously it was a real full washing, then dabbing water on various body parts, etc). So, that argument doesn’t work, so they then move the goal posts and say that it is an issue of authority, and Catholics would agree with that, though we would say that the Church has always had the authority to do what it is, given to her by Jesus Christ.
It has been said by many a Mormon that the (assumed) disappearance of prophetic utterances is evidence of the apostasy. But when was the last time an LDS general authority had an insight ending with “Thus Saith the LORD”?
Yes, I agree. The living apostles and prophets seem to not be doing things differently than the purported non-prophet leaders of other religions. When we see the latest canonized revelation, lifting the priesthood ban of blacks in 1978 (how about that for an example of continuing revelation), we see that there actually is no record of the revelation, as we see in the rest of the D&C. The official declaration is just that-a declaration that a revelation was received, not the text of the revelation.
These two articles address my thoughts on the matter of revelation from the living apostles and prophets of the LDS church:
zomarah.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/thomas-s-monson-a-seer-a-revelator-a-translator-and-a-prophet/
zomarah.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/silent-revelations/
As Catholics we know that revelation from God continues to this day, and our history is filled with many examples of Heavenly visions and visitations. LDS claim that the Heavens were closed until Joseph Smith. We know that the Heavens have always been open, and visions, miracles, Divine gifts, etc. have continued unabated in our Church (and I would say to a much greater degree than in Mormonism).
Now we have the OP to add to the list: It has been said by many a Mormon that the sheer number of competing denominations in Christianity is evidence of the apostasy.
It is so much as implied in their own scriptures! lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.19?lang=eng . So what are we to think about the HUNDREDS of Latter Day Saint denominations that have sprung up in a matter of two hundred years!?
Every “problem” in Christianity that Mormonism is alleged to “fix” is actually exacerbated by Mormonism! Either these problems in Christianity are real and Mormonism has failed to fix them or they were never problematic to begin with. If fiddling with the Sacraments is wrong when the Catholic Church does it then it’s wrong when the LDS do it. If the lack of continuing public revelation is problematic for the Catholic Church then it’s problematic for the LDS Church. If sectarianism in Christianity has negative implications for Christianity then sectarianism in Mormonism does likewise for Mormonism.
I agree. That’s actually what I have said many times when discussing coming back to the Catholic Church. As well, I realized that many of the things that I liked about Mormonism, or that attracted me to it, are found in Catholicism in some fashion, coupled with a firm belief in the ongoing guidance and protection of Jesus Christ of His own body, which reminds me that the Church is the Kingdom of God on Earth, not some mere human organization that can be overthrown by the whims of man.
By the way, am I the only one who finds it bizarre that just a year or two ago you could’ve swapped the content of LivingWaters7’s and TexanKnight’s posts (while ignoring posting style) and have been none the wiser? :hypno: We’ve entered the CAF Twilight Zone.
I was amused by that too.
Still glad to see you back, and you are in my prayers.