Mormonism vs Catholicism

[campeador]

…

1. Did an apostasy occur?

Jeremiah 33:14-21

The days are coming—oracle of the LORD—when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

In those days, at that time, I will make a just shoot spring up for David; he shall do what is right and just in the land.

In those days Judah shall be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; this is the name they shall call her: “The LORD our justice.”

For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a successor on the throne of the house of Israel,

nor shall the priests of Levi ever be lacking before me, to sacrifice burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices.

This word of the LORD also came to Jeremiah:

Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with day and my covenant with night so that day and night no longer appear in their proper time,

only then can my covenant with my servant David be broken, so that he will not have a descendant to act as king upon his throne, and my covenant with the priests of Levi who minister to me.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I am also a fan of Robert Spitzer, especially his lectures on cosmology.

I was raised atheist but it was my physics and philosophy studies that turned me towards the road from unbelief to belief.

I also liked how the Catholic Church used reason instead of emotion. As Pope Benedict XVI said faith without reason can lead to fanaticism.

I like how the Catholic Church provides a space for both, since both are ways that people approach and connect with God. The Church certainly is “expert in humanity”

 

[superwimp]

1. Can the Church (if true) grant someone guaranteed exaltation to the highest celestial glory while they are still living and before the Judgement of God?

As Cayce said people don't go to heaven, they grow to heaven. Heaven isn't a place that God can let you into. With the Holy Ghost you have to evolve. There are no shortcuts regardless of whatever ceremonies a church may have.

 

[RebeccaJ]

With the second anointing (the first being the endowment ceremony), it is less about knowledge and more about the Church making the judgement on behalf of God while the person is still living. The few that receive this ordinance are said to be guaranteed exaltation. The only sin that would prevent them from doing so is denying the Holy Ghost.

I suppose its similar to the Saints in Catholicism except in Catholicism the person is dead and you have a full history of their life. From what I have read, this ordinance performed in the Temple means that the person could commit murder (for example) the day after and still enter the highest celestial glory.

I have been doing a lot of thinking and praying the last couple of days and it basically comes down to 2 questions (the rest is small print)

1. Did an apostasy occur?
2. Can the Church (if true) grant someone guaranteed exaltation to the highest celestial glory while they are still living and before the Judgement of God?

Saints are not judged into heaven by the Catholic Church. The Church will canonize someone based on their life and later after their death, after evidence has been reviewed. The evidence must show that the person is in heaven. The evidence must include miracles that have occurred because of a saint’s intercession.

ewtn.com/johnpaul2/cause/process.asp

There is only one Person who guarantees us Salvation. The Church brings people to Christ, who is our Salvation. We are invited to the heavenly banquet, but not forced to attend it.

 

[gazelam]

1. Did an apostasy occur?

Cyril of Jerusalem stated…

Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away. For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing. And formally the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears. It is a plausible discourse? All listen to it gladly. Is it a word of correction? All turn away from it. Most have departed from right words, and rather choose the evil, than desire the good. This therefore is the falling away, and the enemy is soon to be looked for… (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15:9, in NPNF Series 2, 7:106-107)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Cyril of Jerusalem stated…

Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away. For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing. And formally the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears. It is a plausible discourse? All listen to it gladly. Is it a word of correction? All turn away from it. Most have departed from right words, and rather choose the evil, than desire the good. This therefore is the falling away, and the enemy is soon to be looked for… (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15:9, in NPNF Series 2, 7:106-107)

But this says that MEN have fallen away ie individuals not that the Church Christ built has fallen?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Saints are not judged into heaven by the Catholic Church. The Church will canonize someone based on their life and later after their death, after evidence has been reviewed. The evidence must show that the person is in heaven. The evidence must include miracles that have occurred because of a saint’s intercession.

ewtn.com/johnpaul2/cause/process.asp

There is only one Person who guarantees us Salvation. The Church brings people to Christ, who is our Salvation. We are invited to the heavenly banquet, but not forced to attend it.

Thank-you for the clarification

 

[Horton]

But this says that MEN have fallen away ie individuals not that the Church Christ built has fallen?

gazelam often quotes partial texts or single bible verses in an attempt to prove the LDS true. This seems to be the site where he is getting at least some of his information. It is an LDS site which makes it biased toward the LDS and away from the Catholic Church. It may be a better use of time to go directly to a source to get the whole of a text and possibly a commentary about the text from an expert.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2011194/posts

 

[LivingWaters7]

It’s the second anointing and the guaranteed exaltation. If eternal progression is true, I don’t see how anyone other than God should know that.

I see. Most Mormons don’t know anything about the Second Anointing. It isn’t something openly discussed, and I never heard about it during my time as a Mormon. The only real reference to it is in this manual:

"Caution: Exercise caution while discussing the doctrine of having our calling and election made sure. Avoid speculation. Use only the sources given here and in the student manual. Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing."
lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-teacher-manual/chapter-19-eternal-life?lang=eng

However yes, I agree with your conclusion.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But this says that MEN have fallen away ie individuals not that the Church Christ built has fallen?

I’m glad you realize this. The fact of the matter is that nowhere in the Bible is it taught that there would be a total apostasy of the Church that Jesus Christ established. Nowhere in the writings of the early Church Fathers will you find them claiming that the Church was lost. You will find references to people leaving the Church, people corrupting the Truth, etc., a fact that happens down to this day. However nowhere will you find them teaching that the Truth established by Jesus Christ was lost from the earth. This is a fundamental issue, and once you realize this, you’ll see that a “restoration” by Mormonism, SDAs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Churches of Christ, etc. simply was not necessary.

Some more of my random thoughts from what I see over at Religious Forums:

1. Catholic teaching on “revelation” is that “Public Revelation” is complete. Public Revelation refers to the Deposit of Faith, i.e. all that is necessary for salvation. This Deposit is personified in the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing more shall be revealed that adds to that Deposit. However, that does not mean that God has stopped speaking to us (as many LDS often claim we believe). We believe that God is intimately involved in the workings of the Church, and indeed, it is God Himself that protects the Church from completely failing (Mormons seem to have a view similar to “ecclesial deism”, where God established the Church then left it up to its own devices, which ultimately led to its failure). You will find many official references in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the matter of God guiding the Church, her leaders, etc. Further, Catholics believe that miracles, visions, Heavenly visitations, etc. still happen, and never ceased. I think you will find Catholic history overflowing with the miraculous.
2. Jane_Doe claims that the apostasy is self evident. She claims that Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox vs Oriental Orthodox vs everyone else are examples of the apostasy, and that these schisms were the result of human power hungriness. Well, if that is the case, then the LDS church must be in apostasy, since, following the exact same logic, the multitude of schisms resulting from the restoration of Joseph Smith were the result of human power hungriness (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement). The fact is, the Church has been here on this earth since Jesus established it Himself.

Hope that helps. Also, please check out the tract I had linked to earlier. I find it extremely helpful in understanding why a total loss of Christ’s Church is an untenable position. Once you come to that conclusion, Mormonism is no longer an option, as attractive as other things in it (or any other restorationist religion) might seem.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Truth, here are three books I think you may find helpful. I’m sure you’re already reading and praying a lot, so I’ll just leave these here:

The Apostasy That Wasn’t: The Extraordinary Story of the Unbreakable Early Church
**"With the touch of a master storyteller, Rod Bennett narrates the drama of the early Church s fight to preserve Christian orthodoxy intact even as powerful forces try to smash it to pieces. The theory goes like this: Just a few centuries after Christ s death, around the time the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, the true Faith suffered a catastrophic falling-away. The simple truths of the gospel became so obscured by worldliness and pagan idolatry kicking off the Dark Ages of Catholicism that Christianity required a complete reboot.

This idea of a Great Apostasy is one of the cornerstones of American Protestantism, along with Mormonism, the Jehovah s Witnesses, and even Islam. Countless millions today profess a faith built on the assumption that the early Church quickly became broken beyond repair, requiring some new prophet or reformer to restore the pure teaching of Jesus and the apostles. This theory is popular… but it s also fiction.

In The Apostasy that Wasn’t, Rod Bennett follows up his bestseller Four Witnesses with an account of the historical events that led him out of his own belief in apostasy theory and into the Catholic Church. With the touch of a master storyteller, he narrates the drama of the early Church s fight to preserve Christian orthodoxy intact even as powerful forces try to smash it to pieces. Amid imperial intrigue, military menace, and bitter theological debate, a hero arises in the form of a homely little monk named Athanasius, who stands against the world to prove that there could never be a Great Apostasy because Jesus promised his Church would never be broken."**

Four Witnesses: The Early Church in Her Own Words
"What was the early Church like? Contrary to popular belief, Rod Bennett shows there is a reliable way to know. Four ancient Christian writers–four witnesses to early Christianity --left us an extensive body of documentation on this vital subject, and this book brings their fascinating testimony to life for modern believers. With all the power and drama of a gripping novel, this book is a journey of discovery of ancient and beautiful truths through the lives of four great saints of the early Church–Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus of Lyons."

Handed Down: The Catholic Faith of the Early Christians
**"Most Protestants believe that there s a great contrast between modern Catholicism and first-centuries Christianity. But in this exploration of history and early theological writings, Papandrea (a former Protestant minister) shows that there s actually a stunning similarity. In Handed Down: The Catholic Faith of the Early Christians, James L. Papandrea (Seven Revolutions) examines that most crucial era in the transmission of Christian truth: the time of the early Church.

During those few centuries following the apostolic age, the brilliant and holy pastors, teachers, and writers known as the Church Fathers took the gospel they received and developed the doctrines and practices that defined the Christian religion. And that religion of the Fathers continues today faithfully kept, vibrant and alive in the Catholic Church. The essence of Christianity is this: we hold fast to what we were given by those who came before us. From Jesus and the apostles to believers throughout history, God s saving revelation has been proclaimed, preserved, and passed on, each generation not inventing the Faith for itself but staying true to the tradition it received.

Papandrea demonstrates that the early Christians were decisively Catholic in how they acted and what they believed in, including: -The authority of the Church and Sacred Tradition in addition to Scripture -The sacraments, including the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist -An ecclesial hierarchy with priests, bishops, and a pope -A theology of salvation that included the importance of works and free will -Prayers and devotions to the saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary More than a compilation of Patristic prooftexts (important though these are), Handed Down offers a fascinating window into the life of the early Church and the lessons it holds for us today. It’s perfect for history-conscious Protestants looking for a friendly defense of Catholic belief, as well as for Catholics who want to deepen their connection with our forefathers in the Faith."**

 

[eddie_too]

these two questions are for a knowledgeable member of the LDS to answer.

what did Joseph Smith teach that is substantively and completely different from the teachings of the RCC and essential to the salvation of a person’s immortal soul?

is there a LDS creed such as the RC apostle’s creed and nicene creed? if you are unfamiliar with either of these two creeds, they contain fundamental beliefs that all RC’s must accept as true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. i am sure they can be found online.

 

[Tarquin]

Cyril of Jerusalem stated…

Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away. For men have fallen away from the right faith; …

Why believe Cyril of Jerusalem was telling the truth when he wrote this, if you believe he was an apostate? It’s like saying, “He is telling you the truth about the gospel he is lying about.”

 

[LivingWaters7]

Hi Truth,

Just got in from work and checked your posts over at the other forum (please keep checking here as well since, as you know, that forum is not for debating or alternate perspectives). Just quickly wanted to say that schisms, people distorting the Truth, etc. are all facts of life. They have happened throughout Christian history, up to this day. Interestingly, some Mormons will claim that it is evidence of apostasy of the Church. If that is the case, then the LDS church must be in apostasy, since there have been dozens of churches established since Joseph Smith’s claimed restoration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

The original Church established and guided by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church, is still here, despite all of the people that have distorted the Truth since He established His Body.

 

[Darryl_B]

I have been looking into both and while reading the tracts on Mormonism on this site I am struggling to see the suggested differences.

Firstly I noticed that it states that the mormon’s belief in eternal progression (becoming god) is blasphemous however in the catechism of the Catholic Church it states…

Also the LDS view of the Godhead, I can’t see why it’s any worse than the Trinity. There are three personages all divine that make up one God?

Would appreciate any help and explanations of these!

The key word is sharers. It casts a whole different perspective. It casts a huge difference as “black vs white”, “down vs up”, “wrong vs right”, “spy vs spy”, “tom vs jerry”.

Sharers. What does that mean?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Hi Truth,

Just got in from work and checked your posts over at the other forum (please keep checking here as well since, as you know, that forum is not for debating or alternate perspectives). Just quickly wanted to say that schisms, people distorting the Truth, etc. are all facts of life. They have happened throughout Christian history, up to this day. Interestingly, some Mormons will claim that it is evidence of apostasy of the Church. If that is the case, then the LDS church must be in apostasy, since there have been dozens of churches established since Joseph Smith’s claimed restoration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

The original Church established and guided by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church, is still here, despite all of the people that have distorted the Truth since He established His Body.

Sorry I have been reading your posts (thank-you), I just didn’t get much chance to post yesterday due to my headache and wanted to get the analogy I wrote over in RF down. I will definitely look into the books you have mentioned. I already have a few on order although the “inside Mormonism” one has to come from USA so will take 3 weeks to get to me.

I don’t know if it would be easier to start a new thread for Catholicism questions but as you will see over on RF, we are talking about the succession of Linus after Peter. LDS do not believe this to be the case and say there is no evidence go suggest Linus succeeded Peter. Why do Catholics think this is the case.

Also I don’t actually know/remember much about the Catholic’s teaching in the afterlife? When we die, what happens? Are we judged and sent go heaven or hell? Is there a delay before judgement, if so where do we go? What about those who didn’t get the chance to hear the gospel in this life through no fault of their own?

Thank-you

 

[Truth_Faith13]

A couple more random questions…

1. infant baptism and original sin? Does Jesus’ atonement not cover Adam’s sin? It was asked over on RF.
2. how can the Mass be a reenactment of the lords supper representing Christ’s broken body if when he instituted it, it was before the sacrifice?

 

[gazelam]

A couple more random questions…

1. infant baptism and original sin? Does Jesus’ atonement not cover Adam’s sin? It was asked over on RF.

LDS theology is that little children are not tainted by Adam’s transgression.

Moroni 8:8* Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.*

I hope this helps…

 

[Horton]

Sorry I have been reading your posts (thank-you), I just didn’t get much chance to post yesterday due to my headache and wanted to get the analogy I wrote over in RF down. I will definitely look into the books you have mentioned. I already have a few on order although the “inside Mormonism” one has to come from USA so will take 3 weeks to get to me.

I don’t know if it would be easier to start a new thread for Catholicism questions but as you will see over on RF, we are talking about the succession of Linus after Peter. LDS do not believe this to be the case and say there is no evidence go suggest Linus succeeded Peter. Why do Catholics think this is the case.

Also I don’t actually know/remember much about the Catholic’s teaching in the afterlife? When we die, what happens? Are we judged and sent go heaven or hell? Is there a delay before judgement, if so where do we go? What about those who didn’t get the chance to hear the gospel in this life through no fault of their own?

Thank-you

The book I suggested to you, The History of the Catholic Church, expands on this topic but here is a quick answer.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

When we die there are three options, heaven, purgatory, or hell. This is my understanding of the teaching so it may not perfectly align with someone with more theological knowledge than I have. Very few people go straight to heaven although there are those we believe have, the saints being among them. Most people will spend some time in purgatory prior to going to heaven. Purgatory is not a punishment, nor is it a negative experience. I once heard a priest say all those in purgatory will eventually get to heaven. While in purgatory we are able to leave behind any attachments to worldly goods, bad habits, secular thinking, an so on and become purged. We are cleansed of all sins and are able to place all of our heart, mind, & soul in the hands of God.

Of course some will have more work to do than others and there is no way for us to know what it will be. Because we are human and have a fallen nature we are unable to become perfect while in the world. Perfection is needed for heaven and we obtain this perfection through the process of purgation.

I look forward to purgatory, although I would like to not go for a couple more decades, because then I will truly be able to do what suffering I must in order to be in the presence of God. While I do not know what that suffering will be like it can’t be worse than the suffering here on earth knowing I fail God every day, and every day I must ask for forgiveness.

For those who did not have a chance to hear the gospel, or those who do not out right reject God, we believe in the mercy of God to save these souls. Since none of us have been to heaven & back it’s something we just can’t know. It is a mystery and one we can live with. We have a loving and merciful God. We have to place our trust in God.

 

[gazelam]

these two questions are for a knowledgeable member of the LDS to answer.

I’ll take a crack. A more complete answer may require some additional nuance that I’m not providing.

what did Joseph Smith teach that is substantively and completely different from the teachings of the RCC and essential to the salvation of a person’s immortal soul?

Here are a couple of things.

1. Joseph Smith taught that divine/priesthood authority is required for baptism and that this authority is only found in the LDS Church. (I believe that Catholics prefer that the baptism be performed by a priest, but accept emergency baptisms by anyone as long as the intent is sincere and form is correct.)
2. Joseph Smith also taught that marriage is required to inherit Eternal Life and that the marriage relationship will continue into the next life assuming the marriage was performed by proper priesthood authority.

Is this what you’re looking for?

is there a LDS creed such as the RC apostle’s creed and nicene creed? if you are unfamiliar with either of these two creeds, they contain fundamental beliefs that all RC’s must accept as true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. i am sure they can be found online.

LDS do have statements of belief, such as, “The Articles of Faith”. These statements do not have the same prominence in the LDS Church as the Nicene Creed does in the Catholic Church. I hope this helps.