Mormonism vs Catholicism

[Tarquin]

LDS do have statements of belief, such as, “The Articles of Faith”. These statements do not have the same prominence in the LDS Church as the Nicene Creed does in the Catholic Church.

“The Articles of Faith” is Mormonism’s primary creedal statement.

Apologies, but I do not understand what “prominence” is referring to. Would you explain? (Not published as much, not talked about as much, not believed in as strongly, or …?)

LDS theology is that little children are not tainted by Adam’s transgression.

In fact, no one, neither child nor adult, is tainted by Adam’s transgression, according to Mormon teachings, right? Only Adam himself. Even he would not have sinned, if it had not been for Satan.

 

[zaffiroborant]

"

In fact, no one, neither child nor adult, is tainted by Adam’s transgression, according to Mormon teachings, right? Only Adam himself. Even he would not have sinned, if it had not been for Satan.

In Mormon teaching it wasn’t even a sin, it was something Adam and Eve had to do.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

The book I suggested to you, The History of the Catholic Church, expands on this topic but here is a quick answer.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

When we die there are three options, heaven, purgatory, or hell. This is my understanding of the teaching so it may not perfectly align with someone with more theological knowledge than I have. Very few people go straight to heaven although there are those we believe have, the saints being among them. Most people will spend some time in purgatory prior to going to heaven. Purgatory is not a punishment, nor is it a negative experience. I once heard a priest say all those in purgatory will eventually get to heaven. While in purgatory we are able to leave behind any attachments to worldly goods, bad habits, secular thinking, an so on and become purged. We are cleansed of all sins and are able to place all of our heart, mind, & soul in the hands of God.

Of course some will have more work to do than others and there is no way for us to know what it will be. Because we are human and have a fallen nature we are unable to become perfect while in the world. Perfection is needed for heaven and we obtain this perfection through the process of purgation.

I look forward to purgatory, although I would like to not go for a couple more decades, because then I will truly be able to do what suffering I must in order to be in the presence of God. While I do not know what that suffering will be like it can’t be worse than the suffering here on earth knowing I fail God every day, and every day I must ask for forgiveness.

For those who did not have a chance to hear the gospel, or those who do not out right reject God, we believe in the mercy of God to save these souls. Since none of us have been to heaven & back it’s something we just can’t know. It is a mystery and one we can live with. We have a loving and merciful God. We have to place our trust in God.

Thank-you , I really want to get that book but it’s quite expensive and I need to wait until my husbands next pay day (25th) as I’m out of personal spending money for this month!

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I’ll take a crack. A more complete answer may require some additional nuance that I’m not providing.

Here are a couple of things.

1. Joseph Smith taught that divine/priesthood authority is required for baptism and that this authority is only found in the LDS Church. (I believe that Catholics prefer that the baptism be performed by a priest, but accept emergency baptisms by anyone as long as the intent is sincere and form is correct.)
2. Joseph Smith also taught that marriage is required to inherit Eternal Life and that the marriage relationship will continue into the next life assuming the marriage was performed by proper priesthood authority.

Is this what you’re looking for?

LDS do have statements of belief, such as, “The Articles of Faith”. These statements do not have the same prominence in the LDS Church as the Nicene Creed does in the Catholic Church. I hope this helps.

So what happens to people who don’t get married?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Why does the Catholic Church have Bishops as the Apostles successors instead of Apostles? Surely if Apostolic Succession is true, the Pope should be an Apostle not a Bishop?

 

[Horton]

Thank-you , I really want to get that book but it’s quite expensive and I need to wait until my husbands next pay day (25th) as I’m out of personal spending money for this month!

I know it is. I bought it for Kindle so it wasn’t quite so much.

 

[Tarquin]

Why does the Catholic Church have Bishops as the Apostles successors instead of Apostles? Surely if Apostolic Succession is true, the Pope should be an Apostle not a Bishop?

What’s more important, the Office, or the name of the Office?
If the Office, then we can relax on the name.
If the Office, then the name may not matter at all.
If the Name, then we can make the office be and do whatever we want. It doesn’t have to continue with the same authority, function, respect, etc. as the original holders of the Name.

There are thousands of languages. “Apostle” is not “apostle” in each and every one of them.
It is my understanding that even “απόστολος” is not “apostle,” but “messenger”.
There are many denominations that have offices of “apostle,” “evangelist,” “elder,” “priest,” etc. (Mormonism lacks several offices ‘named’ in the New Testament.) Some New Testament “offices” seem to have been called by various names. Present-day denominations reflect that. Some denominations have “presbyters” rather than “elders,” “seventies” instead of “evangelists,” and “pastors” instead of “bishops” or “priests.” We are flexible, we humans, and especially when it comes to words we use to designate things.

If Apostolic Succession is true (whatever that means), then the authority, responsibility, power, and function of the apostle(s) should be evident today. Whether or not there is “vocabulary succession” is a secondary issue of little importance.

 

[gazelam]

So what happens to people who don’t get married?

Those who had no opportunity to have a marriage solemnized in an LDS temple in this life will receive that blessing in the next life.

Those who purposely avoided marriage in an LDS temple in this life will not receive Eternal Life.

LDS believe that a marriage performed outside of an LDS temple ends at the death of one of the spouses.

D&C 131:1 *In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.*

I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

“The Articles of Faith” is Mormonism’s primary creedal statement.

Apologies, but I do not understand what “prominence” is referring to. Would you explain? (Not published as much, not talked about as much, not believed in as strongly, or …?)

IMHO the Articles of Faith are not as prominent in the LDS church as the Nicene Creed is in the Catholic Church because the Nicene Creed is recited each week as part of mass. Also the Nicene Creed is often cited as a discriminator as to who is a Christian. The LDS Articles of Faith are quite prominent in the LDS Church. Books have been written about them, and younger children are encouraged to memorize them. However, they are not recited weekly in LDS worship services. Also, if someone were to indicate that they had a problem with, say, the 7th Article of Faith, it wouldn’t be suggested that they weren’t really LDS. That’s all.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Those who purposely avoided marriage in an LDS temple in this life will not receive Eternal Life.

.

Just one of the many reasons I simply can not accept the LDS church has the proverbial snowball’s chance of being correct on any matter concerning salvation. The LDS church is so very very wrong on so much.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why does the Catholic Church have Bishops as the Apostles successors instead of Apostles? Surely if Apostolic Succession is true, the Pope should be an Apostle not a Bishop?

Again, the comparison cannot be made because definitions are not the same.

Apostolic succession is redefined to the point of absurdity by the Mormon definition.

First off Mormonism claims to have restored a practice of 12 Apostles. Well really? Did Jesus not personally select 12 during His ministry? When one of the 12 failed, didn’t the Twelve select a replacement based on a very particular requirement? An Apostle, is required to have been with Jesus in His ministry! Therefore we can safely deduce that anyone claiming to be an Apostle after Jesus ascension into heaven, is a false claimant.

The Apostles chose and ordained men to continue their office. They were not called Apostles by the Apostles and they are not called Apostles now.

Apostolic succession is defined as follows. First, that what is taught is what the Apostles taught. This responsibility, that of handing on the faith to each generation, is that of our Bishops.

Second, That the first Bishops were ordained by the Apostles, as their successors. Each Bishop today has an unbroken line of ordination going back to the Apostles.

Third, that all the baptized, everyone, are apostles. Not one of the Twelve, no. Apostle comes from a Greek word that means one who is sent. St. Paul is called the apostle to the gentiles. He is called an apostle, but he was not one of the 12 Apostles. St. Mary Magdalen, is given the title of apostle to the Apostles, as Jesus sent her to tell the Apostles of His Resurrection. We are all sent at the end of mass, as apostles to the world.

Jesus established a Church, that can be recognized by four marks. One of which, is it Apostolic? We can see already that the Mormon church does not teach what the Apostles taught, in their claim to having 12 Apostles. The 12 Apostles taught that one of their own replacements had to be with them during Jesus’ ministry. The Apostles taught that they ordained their successors, and did not call their successors one of the Twelve.

The Twelve Apostles have a special place as the foundation of Christ’s Church. This foundation being laid by Jesus Himself as part of His earthly ministry. This foundation is sure and does not require that the stones be replaced. The real Twelve Apostles are the original foundation. Any new claimants are building a new foundation and building something other on top of it.

 

[jane_doe]

An Apostle, is required to have been with Jesus in His ministry! Therefore we can safely deduce that anyone claiming to be an Apostle after Jesus ascension into heaven, is a false claimant.

Therefore, Paul is not an apostle, but a false claimant?

Third, that all the baptized, everyone, are apostles. Not one of the Twelve, no. Apostle comes from a Greek word that means one who is sent. St. Paul is called the apostle to the gentiles. He is called an apostle, but he was not one of the 12 Apostles.

Huh?

 

[gazelam]

Each Bishop today has an unbroken line of ordination going back to the Apostles.

95% of Catholic Bishops today cannot trace their lineage back to an Apostle. These 95% all go through Cardinal Rebiba and no one knows who ordained him a Bishop.

On the other hand, each LDS Priesthood holder can trace his authority directly to Jesus Christ via Peter, James, and John, via Joseph Smith.

 

[Horton]

On the other hand, each LDS Priesthood holder can trace his authority directly to Jesus Christ via Peter, James, and John, via Joseph Smith.

Can you provide a non LDS source for this with links?

 

[Tarquin]

IMHO the Articles of Faith are not as prominent in the LDS church as the Nicene Creed is in the Catholic Church because the Nicene Creed is recited each week as part of mass. Also the Nicene Creed is often cited as a discriminator as to who is a Christian. The LDS Articles of Faith are quite prominent in the LDS Church. Books have been written about them, and younger children are encouraged to memorize them. However, they are not recited weekly in LDS worship services. Also, if someone were to indicate that they had a problem with, say, the 7th Article of Faith, it wouldn’t be suggested that they weren’t really LDS. That’s all.

Then by “prominence” you meant the amount of public recitation. In that case, it is true that the LDS Articles of Faith are not as prominent (visible, audible) as the Nicene Creed. However, if you are holding acceptance of the Nicene Creed as a distinguishing mark of who is Christian, then the Articles of Faith must be held equally distinguishing (prominent), unless there are members of the Mormon Church who reject the Articles of Faith yet are still held as Mormons in good standing. As for the 7th Article in particular, to deny that article is to deny prophecy and revelation. How can one who denies prophecy and revelation, and thus must deny prophets and thus must deny Joseph Smith was a prophet; and one who denies revelation, and those must deny the revelations of Joseph Smith and thus must deny the First Vision: how can they be considered other than as apostates from Mormonism!? I have no doubt they would be “counselled” severely, and feel rather confident that they would not be considered “good” Mormons.

 

[Tarquin]

Therefore, Paul is not an apostle, but a false claimant?

Huh?

Remember the ambiguities of languages. ἀπόστολος also means “messenger”. Paul was the Messenger to the Gentiles, and received direction from “The Twelve” in Jerusalem. There were twelve “Apostles” as initially appointed by Jesus. There was no “Quorum of Thirteen” nor, as in the Mormon Church, a quorum of Fifteen.

 

[Tarquin]

95% of Catholic Bishops today cannot trace their lineage back to an Apostle. These 95% all go through Cardinal Rebiba and no one knows who ordained him a Bishop.

On the other hand, each LDS Priesthood holder can trace his authority directly to Jesus Christ via Peter, James, and John, via Joseph Smith.

Well, they can trace them to Joseph Smith. It’s questionable whether they can trace Joseph Smith’s calling to Peter, James, and John. If true, one must wonder why such an ordination wasn’t reported until five years after it occurred. Was it a less important event, was apostolic authority less important then? One must wonder why such a vital aspect of church authority was not included in the original Book of Commandments.

A Mormon who rejects the 7th Article of Faith will naturally reject this ordination, and yet remains a Mormon in good standing. That makes it sound like Smith’s experience is not vital to our salvation nor to our exaltation not even to the establishment of the Church…

I may be alone in this, but I find it odd that Smith did not report shaking hands with the three “beings” who ordained him. How did he know they weren’t lying to him!? In Doctrine and Covenants 129, the way to distinguish messengers from God and devils appearing as angels of light is to ask to shake hands with them:

4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

If he didn’t at least try to shake hands with them, they were probably devils in disguise, at least that is the possibility held out by Doctrine and Covenants 129.

 

[eddie_too]

gazelam, thanks for your response to my two questions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Therefore, Paul is not an apostle, but a false claimant?

Huh?

Paul never claimed to be one of the Twelve.

Huh what huh?

 

[jane_doe]

Paul never claimed to be one of the Twelve.

Huh what huh?

He was/is an Apostle. It’s that simple.