Mormonism vs Catholicism

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95% of Catholic Bishops today cannot trace their lineage back to an Apostle. These 95% all go through Cardinal Rebiba and no one knows who ordained him a Bishop.
Yet, we know he was a Bishop and later an Archbishop having been given assignments by two different Popes. I don’t know who my Great-G-G-G-G-G-Grandfather was but I know I had one.
On the other hand, each LDS Priesthood holder can trace his authority directly to Jesus Christ via Peter, James, and John, via Joseph Smith.
On the other LDS hold a priesthood invented by Joseph Smith, and it cannot be found in history before that time.
 
Since you seem to be unable to provide sources with links to your claim I have to assume there is none. The Catholic Church can trace it’s apostolic succession down from St. Peter. The LDS can not do the same. You have nothing prior to Joseph Smith in way of documents, tradition, or proof.
Your assertion here is just silly. LDS can do the same! You previously asked for a non-LDS source verifying LDS lines of authority. (I’m not sure why a non-LDS would care.) Then you triumphantly proclaim that the RCC can trace it’s apostolic succession down from St. Peter without providing a non-Catholic source. Again, 95% of Catholic bishops cannot trace their line beyond Cardinal Rebiba.

Here’s a link where LDS can request their line of authority back to the Savior: lds.org/help/support/request-a-priesthood-line-of-authority?lang=eng
 
To be fair to Catholicism, Rebiba was in the 16th century, a century also known as The Protestant Reformation. It is very probable given the amount of Catholic buildings and items that were burnt, that any records of his ordination and those before him have been destroyed.
Were I catholic, the Cardinal Rebiba issue alone would not concern me.
 
Hello truth faith,
Code:
 While I don't believe in the historicity of the BOM, for me, it was very helpful in describing the world of Religion.  When I became involved with the LDS I was very ignorant of this world.  The comment about priestcraft and later Jesus's definition of what the gospel is were extremely enlightening to me.
To Gazelum
Code:
This is how eternal life is defined:
JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 
On the other LDS hold a priesthood invented by Joseph Smith, and it cannot be found in history before that time.
Untrue. The priesthood passed on to Joseph Smith was that priesthood had by Christ himself. The LDS hold a priesthood given to Peter, James, and John by Jesus Christ.

Mark 3:14 (KJV) And he [Jesus] ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.

In May 1829 Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and conferred their authority upon him that they received from Jesus. No historical invention here.
 
You used to be LDS? I’m assuming you were born into the church if you went to primary? Would you mind telling me your story? How long were you LDS? What made you question the Church? When did you finally decide to leave and why?
Yes, BIC. I was in primary before the Mormon church changed its stance on African Americans. I was happy Mormon kid. Believed everything I was taught. Thought all Mormons believed what was taught too.

My questioning of everything I had been taught began in elementary school. In primary and Sunday school, I was being taught that dark skin was a sign of being cursed by God. One day at school we were taught about the genetic mutations in melanin, as the scientific explanation for different colors of human skin. That was the first time I had this realization that I had been lied to, by the Mormons who were teaching me. It is the first time I realized that Mormon “prophets” were just making stuff up. I was around 10 years old at the time.

I questioned everything I was taught by Mormons after that. It turned around that day and I no longer believed anything by default. I felt duped and no longer trusted a angle thing I had been taught or would be taught. I quietly left. No fanfare or social media drama, as I left before the internet existed. I had a lot of disbelief that was my own. Things that didn’t add up. No one to share that with.

I understand wanting Mormonism to be true. My entire family are Mormons and I would be more accepted in their lives if I were Mormon too. But such is life, I’m not going to pretend to believe something I don’t. I did that from about age 13 to 23, just to keep my parents happy.

Around 2000 I was startled when a family members who I thought had left Mormonism, returned to it. It was then that I looked online for the first time about anything remotely having to do with Mormonism. I found there were thousands of people who had come to the same conclusions as I had. And I found that all of the specifics of why I left were the same reasons others had left too.

The Mormon Church has a very nice facade that it maintains to this day. About half of the people responding to you are former LDS and all have had that moment, or moments, where the facade fell away for them.
 
Untrue. The priesthood passed on to Joseph Smith was that priesthood had by Christ himself. The LDS hold a priesthood given to Peter, James, and John by Jesus Christ.

Mark 3:14 (KJV) And he [Jesus] ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.

In May 1829 Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and conferred their authority upon him that they received from Jesus. No historical invention here.
May 1829? How do you know that? I distinctly remember a Sunday School lesson where the teacher said we don’t know when the Melchizedek priesthood was restored. Indeed, Wikipedia says as much:

"Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said they were visited by John the Baptist, who laid his hands on their head and gave them the Aaronic priesthood; Smith described the event in detail and gave an exact date when it happened. In contrast, he never gave a description of any vision in which he saw an angel separately confer the Melchizedek priesthood. However, by the turn of the 20th century, Latter Day Saint theologians believed that such a separate ordination by angels had occurred prior to the organization of the Church of Christ on April 6, 1830.[9] This was largely because the early church organization contained the office of elder, which at least by 1835 was considered an office of the Melchizedek priesthood. As evidence for such a pre-organization angellic conferral, writers referred to a revelation in which Smith said he heard “The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!”[10] Thus, most Mormons suppose that Smith and Cowdery were visited by the three angels in 1829 and that they conferred the Melchizedek priesthood in the same way John the Baptist had conferred the Aaronic priesthood.

However, the official church history, supervised or written by Smith, states that “the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the Elders” during a General Conference in early June 1831.[11] When Smith’s official history was first published in 1902, the compiler B.H. Roberts thought that this was a mistake, because it would not be consistent with the common Mormon belief that the priesthood had been conferred prior to the church’s founding in 1830.[12]

On the other hand, some recent Mormon historians accept Smith’s history as correct and consistent with other historical records showing that other Mormons present at the conference dated the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood to 1831.[13] This conference had been a very significant event in the early church history, coming soon after the conversion of Sidney Rigdon, who believed that Mormon missionaries lacked the necessary power to adequately preach the gospel.[14] Thus, in January 1831, Smith issued a revelation where he wrote that after Mormons relocated to Kirtland, Ohio, they would “be endowed with power from on high” and “sent forth”.[15] In a revelation given to an individual, Smith assured the man that “at the conference meeting he [would] be ordained unto power from on high”.[16] One of Smith’s associates that was present at the conference expressed the view that this ordination “consisted [of] the endowment–it being a new order–and bestowed authority”,[17] and later that year, an early convert who had left the church claimed that many of the Saints “have been ordained to the High Priesthood, or the order of Melchizedek; and profess to be endowed with the same power as the ancient apostles were”.[18] In 1835, the historical record was muddled a bit when the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants altered pre-1831 revelations to make a distinction between the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, and to classify the offices of elder and apostle as part of the Melchizedek priesthood.[19]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek_priesthood_(Latter_Day_Saints)#Restoration_of_the_Melchizedek_Priesthood
 
gazelam often quotes partial texts or single bible verses in an attempt to prove the LDS true…
And when confronted with Bible verses that contradict his position (here and here), gazelam prefers to throw links at the issue (here), rather than discuss it openly. 🤷
 
I’m a little confused. Of course the original twelve are just that… the original 12. I’m not sure how the LDS having Apostles contradicts this since the Bible does say and some were given as Apostles, prophets etc. I don’t think the Prophet of the LDS Church (who is an Apostle) would say he was one of the original 12??? (Or does he?)

Judas was replaced by Matthias (who was not an original 12 but a replacement) but does Catholicism say he is one of the original 12? But then Paul is a different type of Apostle? Why is Matthias not the same as Paul?

Sorry I’m confused now…I’ve obviously misunderstood the Catholic’s idea of Apostolic Succession.

If only the original 12 were meant to be Apostles in their sense and the rest as Paul, messengers. Why are Protestant denominations wrong? As surely they are spreading the message of the gospel? And are therefore messengers or Apostles in that sense?
The LDS claim is that the “quorum” of twelve apostles was supposed to be continuous. They believe that once an apostle of the 12 was removed or died, he was supposed to be replaced in perpetuity. They point to the replacement of Judas as evidence of that. What we are claiming is that the “quorum” of twelve apostles was not supposed to be continuous, but was a foundation laid that did not have to be repeatedly laid. We also see in the Bible the criteria to be one of the 12. Therefore, LDS apostles (or any others making the same claim) could not be modern claimants to being part of that quorum, because they do not meet that criteria.

The Catholic view, as others have discussed, is that the 12 passed on their authority to their successors, the Bishops. Also, the word “apostle” (which means one who is sent) was and is used in many other ways beyond just referring to members of the 12.

Also, for Catholics, to be “apostolic” is not only to have the same authority, but also the same doctrines. The most ancient Christian doctrines can be found in the Catholic Church (along with other apostolic churches, such as the Orthodox).
 
Untrue. The priesthood passed on to Joseph Smith was that priesthood had by Christ himself. The LDS hold a priesthood given to Peter, James, and John by Jesus Christ.

Mark 3:14 (KJV) And he [Jesus] ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.
The seventh Chapter of Hebrews tells us the the Priesthood of Jesus Christ was unique to him. His Priesthood was like Melchizedek:
-He had no Mother
-He had no Father
-He brought offerings of bread
-He brought offerings of wine.

While Christ ordained the Twelve, they did not have the unique Priesthood of Jesus Christ; nobody can.
In May 1829 Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and conferred their authority upon him that they received from Jesus. No historical invention here.
To add to Post #170 I remind you of what I said in post #148. Mormon’s claim Joseph Smith received “authority” in 1829 but there were no Mormon apostles until 1835. Linking authority with apostles was an invention of Brigham Young.
 
Also, for Catholics, to be “apostolic” is not only to have the same authority, but also the same doctrines. The most ancient Christian doctrines can be found in the Catholic Church (along with other apostolic churches, such as the Orthodox).
👍
Something we sometimes forget.
 
To add to Post #170 I remind you of what I said in post #148. Mormon’s claim Joseph Smith received “authority” in 1829 but there were no Mormon apostles until 1835. Linking authority with apostles was an invention of Brigham Young.
The restoration took years to accomplish You have to start somewhere…
 
Untrue. The priesthood passed on to Joseph Smith was that priesthood had by Christ himself. The LDS hold a priesthood given to Peter, James, and John by Jesus Christ.
Mark 3:14 (KJV) And he [Jesus] ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.
In May 1829 Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and conferred their authority upon him that they received from Jesus. No historical invention here.
Stephen168;14296457:
To add to Post #170 I was remind you of what I said in post #148. Mormon’s claim Joseph Smith received “authority” in 1829 but there were no Mormon apostles until 1835. Linking authority with apostles was an invention of Brigham Young.
The restoration took years to accomplish You have to start somewhere…
What you ignored was my main point:** Joseph Smith invented a priesthood; he did not restore a priesthood. **

It is only secondary that I point out: the Mormon Church claim about apostles was never taught by Joseph Smith; the founder of the latter-day-saint movement.

And just a thought: Christ had a three year ministry which included Apostles. After three years, Joseph Smith still had not thought having Apostles was important.
 
And when confronted with Bible verses that contradict his position (here and here), gazelam prefers to throw links at the issue (here), rather than discuss it openly. 🤷
👍 Yes he does. It’s the main reason I provide the whole of the text to put everything in context. I imagine I could find single verses to “prove” anything I want it to but I know that is not the appropriate way to use the bible…context and audience are critical to understanding what the message is.
 
my main argument against Mormonism is as follows. in Mormon theology the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at a time right? well then how can that same Holy Ghost possibly be giving people all over the world the same testimony that you have at the same time? another one is this, why is the Book of Mormon, which was written in 19th century United States, written in King James Style English? I feel that if God were going to give us another revelation of Jesus Christ he would at least use our own language. I don’t know if you all are aware of this but 19th century American English from New York State, is quite a bit different than the English that was spoken in England in the 1600s. Just some thoughts.
 
my main argument against Mormonism is as follows. in Mormon theology the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at a time right? well then how can that same Holy Ghost possibly be giving people all over the world the same testimony that you have at the same time? another one is this, why is the Book of Mormon, which was written in 19th century United States, written in King James Style English? I feel that if God were going to give us another revelation of Jesus Christ he would at least use our own language. I don’t know if you all are aware of this but 19th century American English from New York State, is quite a bit different than the English that was spoken in England in the 1600s. Just some thoughts.
The LDS belief is that the Holy Ghost is in only one location at a time, but His influence can be felt everywhere. An analogy is to the sun. The sun is in a distant location from us but the entire population of the Earth feels the influence of our distant sun. I hope that helps…
 
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