Mormonism....Why?

[why_me]

but i am very intrigued by this witness of the Holy Ghost, because i am confirmed by an internal witness which I am convinced is that of the Holy Ghost telling me that not only is christianity true, but that the Catholic faith is the fullest form of it. I could never waiver from this conviction because it is so powerful for me, and yet I am presented with others who make the same statement about religions that are very different and antagonistic towards mine. Is it possible the same Holy Ghost is giving various convictions?

Which leads me to believe that the Holy Ghost works in mysterious ways. I tend to believe that god wants you to be catholic because it is through catholicm that you are close to him. You may indeed make a ‘bad’ mormon. No all are ready for the demands that catholicism and mormonism places on individuals. Many catholics and I would say the majority do not practive their religion. I am not referring to going to mass on sunday which is the minimal that a catholic should do, but all the other rituals and holy days that need to be observed. Many do not even go to Mass.

I think that it is the same holy ghost. But I would think that Mormons would claim that they have more truth in their religion. But in the end, as far as christiandom is concerned, it is either the catholic church or the mormon church that can claim truth based on historical foundations.

 

[LaMar]

As to why people become mormon or choose to stay mormon, I would say it is because for many the holy ghost has testified to them of its truthfulness. Very few can stay mormon for very long without such a testimony. The mormon faith is not a faith for just sunday worship. It is a way of life. No alcohol, no coffee, no sex (outside of marriage), no porn, good living, moral living, and a lifestyle that tends to be just the opposite of the lifestyle of the world, if one lives in the mormon faith and yet, lives in the world.

But people stay in the faith because the book of mormon has not been proven false and because people believe that the LDS church is true.

The only thing on your list I’ll cop to is the fact that I drink coffee, sometimes. Everyone knows about it (including my home teachers) and nobody’s called me into the bishop’s office yet.

I’m confident that most of the devout Catholics on this forum live the same moral, decent life that we do – with the exception of the word of wisdom, which is more a dietary law than a morality issue.

What does “the opposite of the lifestyle of the world” mean? How is our Mormon lifestyle different? My non-Mormon friends don’t run around cheating on their spouses, holding up convenience stores or smoking crack. If you’re just trying to claim to be superior to everyone who doesn’t have their names on the rolls at the COB then that point has already been made in spades. On the other hand: If you really believe this nonsense, I’d encourage you to leave your house more often.

 

[cyberjacques]

But people stay in the faith because the book of mormon has not been proven false and because people believe that the LDS church is true.

I’m sorry, but I know for a fact that you have been involved in more than a handful of threads which have proven that not only is the book of mormon a fabrication, but a bad one at that. Not to mention the documentation of Joseph Smith as a lecherous fraud. Let’s recap, shall we?

Smith told teenage girls and their parents that if they didn’t marry him and submit to his sexual advances, their entire family would be damned.

Smith was given a set of inscribed plates to translate. He spun some great whopper, and then it was revealed that the plates had been manufactured by the people who gave them to Smith, just to expose him.

The book of mormon has claimed (until recently) that the Native Americans are descended from a lost Israelite tribe, when in fact, they have absolutely zero Hebrew DNA, and can be traced to a very specific Mongolian population.

The book of mormon claims that the people on the American continent rode horses in battle. The last indigenous American horse was killed more than 9,000 years ago, and nothing even resembling a horse would ever set foot on the continent again until just a few hundred years ago.

They also supposedly used steel weapons and built concrete buildings, yet there is no archaeological evidence to support this claim, despite the fact that such evidence would be plentiful and would remain relatively intact for centuries or more, especially the slag heaps that result from steel production.

I could go on, but this post is starting to get a bit long. If you want to ignore the proof, go ahead, but please don’t try to claim that it’s not there.

 

[J_C]

Which leads me to believe that the Holy Ghost works in mysterious ways.

sounds reasonable given the mysterious circumstances of many of Gods ascribed doings. It doesn’t explain why one person is convicted of the truth of Christianity while another is convicted of the truth of an opposing religions that accuses Christianity of being an apostate abomination. that isn’t believable, mystery or not. Are there any circumstances related in the bible or the Book of mormon where the Holy Ghost gave opposite confirmations to different people?

I tend to believe that god wants you to be catholic because it is through catholicm that you are close to him. You may indeed make a ‘bad’ mormon. No all are ready for the demands that catholicism and mormonism places on individuals.

well I start with Jesus and work from Him, he is the author and finisher of our faith. I am close to Jesus through the Catholic Church which He founded and preserved by His power and will. So you are correct in that sense. And since mormonism considers all other christian faiths to be an abomination, i certainly woul d have a hard time being conciliated to that religion. .

Many catholics and I would say the majority do not practive their religion. I am not referring to going to mass on sunday which is the minimal that a catholic should do, but all the other rituals and holy days that need to be observed. Many do not even go to Mass.

that is true, and every religion has its hangers on. But with all due respect and frommy observation of your posting I think you make too much of this issue, an it makes you seem like a mormon true believer because thsi is the most common line given by anyone attacking the Cathlic faith, that Cathlics are lax and do not follow the rules. There is great danger is makeing judgements about other peoples’ piety. Yes it is tempting and we all do it, but be careful; i can remember many times that I have made serious errors of judgement in both directions about other people. I have enough trouble just maintaining my own flight level without worrying how other people are flying.

But in the end, as far as christiandom is concerned, it is either the catholic church or the mormon church that can claim truth based on historical foundations.

i have heard this before but I cannot understand this statement. the argument from history makes no sense at all. mormon religion began some time between 1814 and 1830 give or take depending on interpretations. by that time the Cathoplic religion was 1800 years established and the orthodox were just as old, and the protestants offshoots from which mormonreligion derived were about 300 years old. I don’t see how mormon can compare from a historical point of view, so maybe you can develop this argument for me because i am not seeing it.

 

[LaMar]

Smith was given a set of inscribed plates to translate. He spun some great whopper, and then it was revealed that the plates had been manufactured by the people who gave them to Smith, just to expose him.

Sorry, but this is one aspect of your argument which simply isn’t true. Nobody gave Joseph Smith any plates, and there’s no credible historical evidence that any plates ever existed at all.

Grant Palmer wrote a great book called An Insider’s View Of Mormon Origins. Palmer is a devout and believing Mormon who goes into great detail about the origins of Smith’s opus. The only prop that he actually used in authoring the Book of Mormon was a seer stone (roughly analogous to a crystal ball, for you guys who don’t know what that is) and a hat. He put the seer stone into the hat, then put his face into the hat, and had visions through the stone. He spoke to a scribe who wrote it all down.

The witnesses of the supposed plates all either recanted later or admitted that they had only seen the plates “in a spiritual fashion”.

Don’t mean to quibble, but thought I’d throw that out. The rest of your critique is a bit harsh but basically accurate.

 

[zerinus]

making a case for any particular religion isn’t very hard when the jury has itchy ears. A decent apologist from any chrisitian religion can make a strong sounding case and if the listener is ready to make a change then that case may be convincing. That doesnt’ mean the argument hold water but only that the convert was ready to hear the argument and be convinced.

Perhaps you did not realize when you said this that it undermines Catholicism as much as it does Mormonism.

but i am very intrigued by this witness of the Holy Ghost, because i am confirmed by an internal witness which I am convinced is that of the Holy Ghost telling me that not only is christianity true, but that the Catholic faith is the fullest form of it. I could never waiver from this conviction because it is so powerful for me, and yet I am presented with others who make the same statement about religions that are very different and antagonistic towards mine. Is it possible the same Holy Ghost is giving various convictions?

sounds reasonable given the mysterious circumstances of many of Gods ascribed doings. It doesn’t explain why one person is convicted of the truth of Christianity while another is convicted of the truth of an opposing religions that accuses Christianity of being an apostate abomination. that isn’t believable, mystery or not. Are there any circumstances related in the bible or the Book of mormon where the Holy Ghost gave opposite confirmations to different people?

Good question. Looks like somebody is lying, or has been deceived. I wonder if it is me. But wait a minute. It could be you! Hard to tell!

well I start with Jesus and work from Him, he is the author and finisher of our faith. I am close to Jesus through the Catholic Church which He founded and preserved by His power and will. So you are correct in that sense. And since mormonism considers all other christian faiths to be an abomination, i certainly woul d have a hard time being conciliated to that religion.

That is not what Mormonism believes; but I guess I am wasting my time since you seem to know better than I do what I think and what I believe.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

Sorry, but this is one aspect of your argument which simply isn’t true. Nobody gave Joseph Smith any plates, and there’s no credible historical evidence that any plates ever existed at all.

Grant Palmer wrote a great book called An Insider’s View Of Mormon Origins. Palmer is a devout and believing Mormon who goes into great detail about the origins of Smith’s opus. The only prop that he actually used in authoring the Book of Mormon was a seer stone (roughly analogous to a crystal ball, for you guys who don’t know what that is) and a hat. He put the seer stone into the hat, then put his face into the hat, and had visions through the stone. He spoke to a scribe who wrote it all down.

The witnesses of the supposed plates all either recanted later or admitted that they had only seen the plates “in a spiritual fashion”.

Don’t mean to quibble, but thought I’d throw that out. The rest of your critique is a bit harsh but basically accurate.

I think this was referring to the kinderhook plates.

 

[BartBurk]

This isin’t intended to be an insult, but why in the world would, on a rational evaluation of the evidence, anyone come to believe that Mormonism has any bearing in truth?

Because the Mormon lifestyle and social structure are very appealing. It’s often especially appealing to people in their late teens and early twenties. I would guess many of those (like me) converted to Mormonism at that age. Sometimes young families looking for stability in their lives are drawn to Mormonism.

When I reached my mid-30s, I looked at it more objectively. I started looking into whether the Book of Mormon really was true. I saw evidence the Book of Abraham wasn’t true. There was little real evidence to bolster the claims of the Book of Mormon. I looked into the history of Joseph Smith and polygamy and was disappointed by what I found.

I really didn’t have to do that with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church just is. It’s been there since the time of Christ. Since I have a strong belief in Jesus it made sense to join the Church that has always proclaimed Christ to the entire world. I found the stability I was looking for as a teenager was really to be found on the Rock of Peter rather than in a church created in the 19th century. Protestant churches didn’t hold to the truth in a way that could be trusted. I came to understand the Bible better through a Catholic outlook than through Protestant lenses. It wasn’t a real hard decision once I was able to see that.

 

[ApostateRLDS]

Originally Posted by cyberjacques
Smith was given a set of inscribed plates to translate. He spun some great whopper, and then it was revealed that the plates had been manufactured by the people who gave them to Smith, just to expose him

.

Sorry, but this is one aspect of your argument which simply isn’t true. Nobody gave Joseph Smith any plates, and there’s no credible historical evidence that any plates ever existed at all.

Actually, cyberjacques is correct. Some locals in Kinderhook, Illinois had a blacksmith manufacture several bell-shaped plates and engraved them with the same markings that were found on a box of tea. They then presented these forgeries to Smith as discoveries’ and asked him to translate them. Smith fell for the hoax and determined that '… they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth".

 

[cyberjacques]

Sorry, but this is one aspect of your argument which simply isn’t true. Nobody gave Joseph Smith any plates, and there’s no credible historical evidence that any plates ever existed at all.

Grant Palmer wrote a great book called An Insider’s View Of Mormon Origins. Palmer is a devout and believing Mormon who goes into great detail about the origins of Smith’s opus. The only prop that he actually used in authoring the Book of Mormon was a seer stone (roughly analogous to a crystal ball, for you guys who don’t know what that is) and a hat. He put the seer stone into the hat, then put his face into the hat, and had visions through the stone. He spoke to a scribe who wrote it all down.

The witnesses of the supposed plates all either recanted later or admitted that they had only seen the plates “in a spiritual fashion”.

Don’t mean to quibble, but thought I’d throw that out. The rest of your critique is a bit harsh but basically accurate.

Wrong plates. Some time after the supposed golden plates were “translated”, some other people gave him another set of plates, copper if memory serves, that they had made themselves. But Smith proceeded to do his thing anyway. After he had thoroughly made a fool of himself, they revealed that the plates were fake.

 

[lukewarm]

It’s no different than any other religion although I do agree the mountain of evidence against Mormonism seems impossible to ignore. However when it comes to matters of religion, death, etc… People need answers and people are more apt to shut off their good sense to get those answers.

Catholics believe a scapular will save them from the fires of hell, that blessed or excorcised medals have powers against evil, that bowing before statues praying and lighting candles doesn’t break the 2nd commandment. That by eating the Eucharist they are literally eating the flesh and blood of the God/Man Jesus. Catholics can overlook the attrocities commited in the Churches name organized and approved by Popes the Vicars of Christ. Catholics believe indulgences can save them from the fires of purgatory a get out of jail card so to speak or time off for good behavior.

From the outside looking in these ideas seem so nutty that you can’t understand how anyone believes them, but they do because 1. It’s more often than not their tradition 2. They like it 3. It provides them adequate answers so they can sleep at night.

We live in the most difficult times, 2000 years ago when no one had any idea what made the plants grow and the sun shine, or the night become day believing in God was simple, almost impossible not to. Today we have science explaining 10,000 times more (accurately) than religion ever has. Faith is very difficult to maintain today, for any religion to have faithful they have to believe the unbelievable or even disproven and come up with alternate explanations on the fly, Mormonism is no different, just more new.

 

[J_C]

Perhaps you did not realize when you said this that it undermines Catholicism as much as it does Mormonism.

i said “any” religion knowing full well that it includes “all” relgision. I didnot intend to omit any. but this does not undermine the catholic religion at all because as a general rule catholics are not canvassing door to door trying to out debate people. so the onus here is on those who are canvassing and looking for itchy ears.

Good question. Looks like somebody is lying, or has been deceived. I wonder if it is me. But wait a minute. It could be you! Hard to tell!

not wanting to get in to a tat for tit with you, z, but i have not suggested that anyone is lying, or if I have unwittingly done so I very much apologize, but I do not believe I did so.

yet the question remains, why would the Holy Ghost witness one thing to one person and then something different, entirely oppositely different, to someone else on the same day respecting the truth of religion? I am not such a bible expert as you appear to be, so I ask you as I asked whyme last night, are you aware of any instances recorded either in the Bible or the Book of mormon in which this was the case? if so please cite them for me, because I would really like to understand this phenomenon that appears to make all relgions of equal merit in the view of God, if not man.

That is not what Mormonism believes; but I guess I am wasting my time since you seem to know better than I do what I think and what I believe.

zerinus

Im’ sorry but Ihave to disagree with you based on what i have already read here and elsewhere, and experienced with my own eyes and ears. About two weeks ago i read an account of a young missionary who described his efforts over many weeks to convert a lady in south America to mormon religion, but, he wrote, “she is really a strong Catholic and refuses to be baptised.”

And going bcak to the first vision Joseph was told that all there creeds are an abomination. Many other mormons have written of this, to be fair so have many protestants, but we are talking mormons here and now, so while i undersatand that your version of mormon religion is unique compared to some others, i don’t see you how you can now deny having stated firmly that Cathloism is apostate, has been ap;ostate since 100ad. And if an apostate religion isn’t an abomination, then what is?

 

[LaMar]

Actually, cyberjacques is correct. Some locals in Kinderhook, Illinois had a blacksmith manufacture several bell-shaped plates and engraved them with the same markings that were found on a box of tea. They then presented these forgeries to Smith as discoveries’ and asked him to translate them. Smith fell for the hoax and determined that '… they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth".

Not surprising that this is new to me. I thought I had a pretty good handle on all Smith’s idiotic behavior.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if I can incorporate it into a lesson someplace. LOL!

 

[ApostateRLDS]

Not surprising that this is new to me. I thought I had a pretty good handle on all Smith’s idiotic behavior.

Thanks for the info. I wonder if I can incorporate it into a lesson someplace. LOL!

Maybe on how conmen start believing their own con.

 

[LaMar]

Maybe on how conmen start believing their own con.

How’s the RLDS doing, anyway?

My local congregation of the Community of Christ has far more nutty true believers than my ward does, by a long mile. Surprising, given the liberalization of your sect. If I had to confront shrill screechers who berated me for suggesting that Ol’ Joe might have had more than one wife, I’d surely be an apostate too.

 

[AugustineH354]

Hello Tom,

You posted:

I am a former Catholic. I believe the evidence indicates that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is more likely to be God’s church on Earth than the Catholic Church.
I believe the evidence supports an apostasy and a restoration.>>

Me: IMHO, one must BEGIN with the view that a restoration has occurred for the evidence at hand (Biblical and historical) to support the sort of apostasy (i.e. total) that would require a restoration. Jesus’ kingdom parables, and certain NT passages (e.g. Matt. 16:18; 28:19, 29; 1 John 2:8, et al.) speak to a continuity between the 1st and 2nd coming of our Lord.

I believe the BOM is far better explained within a CoJCoLDS ancient/divine record than within a Catholic ??? framework.>>

Me: Why the BoM over the Qur’an, and/or the *Kitab-i-Iqan *???

I believe there are numerous other areas in which the CoJCoLDS wins the evidentiary debate over the Catholic Church and that this is sufficient to overcome areas where the CoJCoLDS looses the EVIDENTIARY debate (because not all battles are won by the CoJCoLDS when assessing evidence).>>

Me: It would be interesting to compare the extant evidence/s between the CoJCoLDS and the RCC when using the 4 notes: one, holy, catholic and apostolic…

Grace and peace,

David

 

[J_C]

Catholics believe a scapular will save them from the fires of hell, that blessed or excorcised medals have powers against evil, that bowing before statues praying and lighting candles doesn’t break the 2nd commandment. That by eating the Eucharist they are literally eating the flesh and blood of the God/Man Jesus. Catholics can overlook the attrocities commited in the Churches name organized and approved by Popes the Vicars of Christ. Catholics believe indulgences can save them from the fires of purgatory a get out of jail card so to speak or time off for good behavior.

From the outside looking in these ideas seem so nutty that you can’t understand how anyone believes them, but they do because 1. It’s more often than not their tradition 2. They like it 3. It provides them adequate answers so they can sleep at night.

We live in the most difficult times, 2000 years ago when no one had any idea what made the plants grow and the sun shine, or the night become day believing in God was simple, almost impossible not to. Today we have science explaining 10,000 times more (accurately) than religion ever has. Faith is very difficult to maintain today, for any religion to have faithful they have to believe the unbelievable or even disproven and come up with alternate explanations on the fly, Mormonism is no different, just more new.

well you cover a lot of territory there, and a lot of it is exagerated, perhaps to help you make your point, which I understand and in some measure agree.

however the things you say about the body and blood of our Lord Jesus, atrocities, indulgences, and those other things invite more study. often the way in which things are packaged by scecular salespeople, and even some religious salespeople, can take things out of proper perspective and make things seem weirder than they really are.

As for momronism being “no different just more new” that couldn’t be less true. Mormon religion is vastly different from Catholic/christian religion and you don’t have to dig very deeply to know this. The same can be found by comparing any of the other separated sects to the historyic and acient faith that came from teh Apostles. while some want to minimize differences for their own reasons, adn while some differences maybe should be minimized, other differences should be noted and respected.

also i bolded your comment about science vs religion. we keep in mind that religion and science hold court in different realms, having explainations for different things and competencies that don’t necessarily overlap. There is no conflict between true religion and true science, though phony science and phony religion often do like to wage phony war against one another.

 

[lukewarm]

well you cover a lot of territory there, and a lot of it is exagerated, perhaps to help you make your point, which I understand and in some measure agree.

I don’t think I exaggerated anything, I condensed it, which may provide a bit of a shock factor, but I don’t think it’s exaggerated.

however the things you say about the body and blood of our Lord Jesus, atrocities, indulgences, and those other things invite more study. often the way in which things are packaged by scecular salespeople, and even some religious salespeople, can take things out of proper perspective and make things seem weirder than they really are.

I don’t know I was a Catholic for 30 years I would say very devout for about seven of them and I always found them very whacky. I pretty much had to ignore them in order to maintain my faith, especially when I would witness people praying before graven images and weeping or rubbing the foot and talking to the statue.

As for momronism being “no different just more new” that couldn’t be less true. Mormon religion is vastly different from Catholic/christian religion and you don’t have to dig very deeply to know this. The same can be found by comparing any of the other separated sects to the historyic and acient faith that came from teh Apostles. while some want to minimize differences for their own reasons, adn while some differences maybe should be minimized, other differences should be noted and respected.

I don’t mean the religions are identical I know a good deal about both, I mean peoples perceptions of them are so different because Mormonism is newer and proposes radically different things. But in reality they are no more whacky than what Catholicism believes in. If you took 2 people who never heard of either at all and explained both religions I bet they would both think both religions are equally impossible to believe. Think of it God Himself born as a man a baby with diapers who was killed for you and now you eat him every week. Just think how bizarre that would sound to someone who wasn’t raised in a culture where it is the norm?

also i bolded your comment about science vs religion. we keep in mind that religion and science hold court in different realms, having explainations for different things and competencies that don’t necessarily overlap. There is no conflict between true religion and true science, though phony science and phony religion often do like to wage phony war against one another.

Religion may say they operate in different areas after millenia of being completely wrong on anything related to the natural sciences like the creation of man, Earth’s place in the Universe, the age of the Earth etc… They now operate in different spheres because they have too, religion has already been collasally wrong anytime it has entered the fray. This goes back to my point of in order to maintain faith you have to allow seemingly absurd new concepts to develop in order to explain why the story of Adam and Eve is really still correct even though we know it isn’t.

 

[ApostateRLDS]

How’s the RLDS doing, anyway?

My local congregation of the Community of Christ has far more nutty true believers than my ward does, by a long mile. Surprising, given the liberalization of your sect. If I had to confront shrill screechers who berated me for suggesting that Ol’ Joe might have had more than one wife, I’d surely be an apostate too.

I wouldn’t know first-hand anymore, since I converted to the Catholic faith in 1993 (kinda makes me a super-duper apostate in
the eyes of my former coreligionists, doesn’t it? )

In my neck of the woods, the CofC members seem to be a much more reasonable bunch.(You don’t hear a lot of ‘Whore of Babylon’ and other anti-Catholic polemics from them) They’ve also done a better job of coming to terms with with the actual history of the so-called Restoration and it’s founder. I don’t think they’re doing that well as they used to as far as numbers; I’ve seen too many churches once owned by the RLDS sold to other churches to think everything is fine.

Around here, the nuttier true believers among the RLDS groups
are found in the Restoration Branch movement. They’re still in shrill denial about Smith, the problems in Missouri, and about the Nauvoo period. They’re not doing that well, either. Of course, when all you talk about is how you were wronged by the Community of Christ, you’re not going to sign up a lot of new members.

 

[J_C]

I don’t know I was a Catholic for 30 years I would say very devout for about seven of them and I always found them very whacky. I pretty much had to ignore them in order to maintain my faith, especially when I would witness people praying before graven images and weeping or rubbing the foot and talking to the statue.

I’ve had the opposite experience, in that the more I embraced the mysteries, des[pite a very, very skeptical nature (i know what you mean), the closer I have come to that God-feeling. For me it has been a humility thing, that I try to admit that I don’t know very much about anything at all , seems like God designed the interface to be at the heart level rather than at the head level, so to speak. when my head tries to analyze the unkonwable then I get dry and cold inside, but when I regard teh mystery of Gods’ bottomless pool of love for me, not just for all men, but for ME personally, then I warm up again and find communion with Him. some may think this is an illusion, and if so then I am OK with that because it puts meaning to all of the beauty and ugliness I see around me, including the ugliness within me.

Think of it God Himself born as a man a baby with diapers who was killed for you and now you eat him every week. Just think how bizarre that would sound to someone who wasn’t raised in a culture where it is the norm?

yeah I know, just think of it!!! just now I was playing a hymn on my piano the first verse of which goes:

"when I survey the wondrous cross, On which the Prince of Glory died.

“My richest gain I count but loss, And pour contempt on all my pride.”

And the third verse:

"See, from his head, his hands, his feet. The pain and love flow mingled down;

"Did e’er such love and sorrow meet, Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

It isn’t so much about the Eucharist, which is amazing enough, but the whole idea of God becoming a man to sacrifice himself for me, that is outrageous, and wonderful! Now why would we expect God to package it all up so that it made sense to a skeptic? He chose the foolish things in order to shame the wise, that sounds like a perfect plan to me.