Mormons and Alma 11:28-30

[DeFide]

I know we have an occasional Mormon/LDS on this board. Perhaps I haven’t looked hard enough, but I’ve never seen a Mormon try to square their doctrine of eternal progression of the gods with the several immutable-God, monotheistic passage in Mormon scripture:

ALMA 11:28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
ALMA 11:29. And he answered, No.
ALMA 11:30. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
ALMA 11:31. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

From Catholic Answers Tract:
"The next time you speak with Mormon missionaries, cite these verses:

“I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18).

“For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles” (Mormon 9:9-10).

It’s hard to be more explicit than that. In his early years Smith did not believe in the “law of eternal progression.” He had an orthodox understanding of God’s immutable nature. But at some point in his theological odyssey, he veered into the land of doublethink."
catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp

Any takers?

 

[gryskull]

Something that I don’t understand in the book of mormon is in Alma 46:15 the people who were faithful to the church were called christians. Well, if the time was around 73 BC(before Christ) doesn’t that mean that no one could be called a christian.? Doesn’t the Bible say in the Book of Acts that the people in Antioch were the first ones to be called Christians…that was after the resurrection right? Hmmm. How could this be then?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

DeFide:

I know we have an occasional Mormon/LDS on this board. Perhaps I haven’t looked hard enough, but I’ve never seen a Mormon try to square their doctrine of eternal progression of the gods with the several immutable-God, monotheistic passage in Mormon scripture:

ALMA 11:28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
ALMA 11:29. And he answered, No.
ALMA 11:30. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
ALMA 11:31. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

From Catholic Answers Tract:
"The next time you speak with Mormon missionaries, cite these verses:

“I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” (Moroni 8:18).

“For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles” (Mormon 9:9-10).

It’s hard to be more explicit than that. In his early years Smith did not believe in the “law of eternal progression.” He had an orthodox understanding of God’s immutable nature. But at some point in his theological odyssey, he veered into the land of doublethink."
catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp

Any takers?

Alma 11.31 mentions a vision - since Mormonism admits of continual revelation, maybe those monotheistic- seeming verses can be qualified by later revelations given to Smith or to his successors. Islam is acquainted with the notion of abrogation of earlier revelations to Mohammed by later revelations. And there is an example of a withdrawn prophecy in Ezekiel (compare chapters 26 and 29).​

There is sure to be a way round awkward Mormon texts ##

 

[DeFide]

## Alma 11.31 mentions a vision - since Mormonism admits of continual revelation, maybe those monotheistic- seeming verses can be qualified by later revelations given to Smith or to his successors. …QUOTE]

I don’t see how truth can be the opposite of what it once was, especially considering the juxtaposition of God being one, and immutable, to later being many changeable gods. Talk about 180!

Perhaps we’ll get a Mormon to take a swing at this.

 

[mormon_fool]

DeFide:

Gottle of Geer:

Perhaps we’ll get a Mormon to take a swing at this.

Been there and done that to some extent. You may wish to check out my contributions on this thread.

 

[tkdnick]

mormon fool:

DeFide:

Been there and done that to some extent. You may wish to check out my contributions on this thread

.
Hey that’s my thread! You hijacked my thread! That really was a pretty good discussion about this topic.

 

[DeFide]

mormon fool:

DeFide:

Been there and done that to some extent. You may wish to check out my contributions on this thread

.

Perhaps you could sum it up for us, as I’m not seeing a clear answer (to this thread topic).

 

[mormon_fool]

DeFide:

mormon fool:

Perhaps you could sum it up for us, as I’m not seeing a clear answer (to this thread topic).

Well in tkdnick’s thread (better give props this time ) I defended the idea that the Book of Mormon uses “God” like a title or name that can be shared by the beings in the Godhead either individually or collectively. I.E. Jesus can appropriately be called God, Jesus’s Father can be called God, or collectively both can be called (one) God. Jesus can additionally be called the Son of God. All four of these usages can readily be found in the Book of Mormon.

Then the discussion turned to whether these usages are best read as modalism (sharing substance but the Father and Son are modes of that substance) or as social trinitarianism (sharing titles and oneness of purpose but not substance). Or at least it would have turned more that way if I had stayed and addressed tkdnick’s last questions and 3DOP’s observations. Alas time is short and it is difficult to present a systematic mormon view of God. If you really want to get some personalized attention and a better summary may I suggest finding a board with more mormons on it?

 

[DeFide]

mormon fool:

DeFide:

Well in tdknick’s thread (better give props this time ) I defended the idea that the Book of Mormon uses “God” like a title or name that can be shared by the beings in the Godhead either individually or collectively. I.E. Jesus can appropriately be called God, Jesus’s Father can be called God, or collectively both can be called (one) God. Jesus can additionally be called the Son of God. All four of these usages can readily be found in the Book of Mormon. …]

For argument’s sake, let’s set aside countless gods v. one God as being attributed to “God”=(godhood in general) in Alma 11:28-30, OK? (Not that I agree & it makes that angel look rather deceptive)

What about the second issue of divine immutability versus changeability?

 

[tkdnick]

mormon fool:

Well in tkdnick’s thread (better give props this time )

Thanks!

Alas time is short and it is difficult to present a systematic mormon view of God. If you really want to get some personalized attention and a better summary may I suggest finding a board with more mormons on it?

Or is there maybe a book that does a good job of covering this topic from the LDS side?

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

Actually, let me reccomend www.mormon.org or www.lds.org. Both have a great online gospel library.

All I can say is I’ve been in the church 24 years and have NEVER, not even once, heard anyone even mention the concept of polytheism. I was taught that there is only ONE God, God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit that binds them and indeed all men together as one in the spirit, which is also what I’ve been learning from the Catholic church as well.

 

[DeFide]

Jo's_Dad:

Actually, let me reccomend www.mormon.org or www.lds.org. Both have a great online gospel library.

All I can say is I’ve been in the church 24 years and have NEVER, not even once, heard anyone even mention the concept of polytheism. I was taught that there is only ONE God, God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit that binds them and indeed all men together as one in the spirit, which is also what I’ve been learning from the Catholic church as well.

Then you’ve been misled about Mormonism. Notice that mormonfool seems to know about the Mormon belief of eternal progression and “plurality of the gods” or polytheism, a belief in more than one God. In the case of Mormonism, it’s countless gods. May I recommend the book Inside Mormonism, available from Catholic.com

The two websites you listed evidently aren’t giving you the full scoop. Mormonism has a reputation for not being forthcoming with their beliefs not only with outsiders, but with insiders as well.

 

[oat_soda]

isn’t it interesting that mormons can’t preciesly define there belifes? this is also true of the protestant notion of sola scriptura -it has a different meaning between every protestant group. and it is absolutely true that along with muslims and JWs, mormons do not believe Jesus is God. check this out

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is Heavenly Father’s Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is our Redeemer. Through Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father has provided a way for all people to become like Him and return to live with Him forever. We love Christ. We worship Christ. He is our example and our Savior.

so do JWs and muslims

Because God does not want us to be without His influence, He sends the Holy Ghost to comfort and help guide His children. The Holy Ghost—sometimes called the Holy Spirit—is the third member of the Godhead.

again, no mention that the Holy Spirit is God. in lowering Jesus to a creature, they by default lower the Holy Spirit to a force as does the JWs and Muslims. don’t be fooled by similar sounding words. on the surface, it may appear christian, but like the masons they have a dark under belly.

 

[tkdnick]

DeFide:

Then you’ve been misled about Mormonism. Notice that mormonfool seems to know about the Mormon belief of eternal progression and “plurality of the gods” or polytheism, a belief in more than one God. In the case of Mormonism, it’s countless gods. May I recommend the book Inside Mormonism, available from Catholic.com

The two websites you listed evidently aren’t giving you the full scoop. Mormonism has a reputation for not being forthcoming with their beliefs not only with outsiders, but with insiders as well.

I think any LDS you talk to will tell you that Inside Mormonism is a bad book to read. I have read it and found it to be charitable, and on the whole, accurate. However, I seriously doubt you will get the average LDS to actually read it. There have to be LDS sources that explain the nature of their belief in God, and I have no doubt it would easier to get an LDS to read an LDS book than one that isn’t.

 

[tkdnick]

oat soda:

isn’t it interesting that mormons can’t preciesly define there belifes? this is also true of the protestant notion of sola scriptura -it has a different meaning between every protestant group. and it is absolutely true that along with muslims and JWs, mormons do not believe Jesus is God.

That’s not true! LDS do believe Jesus is God. In fact, many will tell you that the God found in the OT is actually Jesus. I think you need to check some facts.

 

[oat_soda]

tkdnick:

That’s not true! LDS do believe Jesus is God. In fact, many will tell you that the God found in the OT is actually Jesus. I think you need to check some facts.

ok jerky, then why doesn’t it say so on the most offical website i can find? they are avoiding the issue on purpose. you just don’t leave that fact out. please, show me proof that mormons believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and not just called collectively a “Godhead”.

I think any LDS you talk to will tell you that Inside Mormonism is a bad book to read. I have read it and found it to be charitable, and on the whole, accurate. However, I seriously doubt you will get the average LDS to actually read it. There have to be LDS sources that explain the nature of their belief in God, and I have no doubt it would easier to get an LDS to read an LDS book than one that isn’t.

if i had a nickle for everytime i’ve read on these threads by mormons that you should find LDS sources to learn what they believe i’d have like 5 dollars. i listened to fr. mitch pacwa give a talk on mormons. he says mormons, jws, and muslims all believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are less then God. i doubt he’s wrong.

 

[tkdnick]

oat soda:

if i had a nickle for everytime i’ve read on these threads by mormons that you should find LDS sources to learn what they believe i’d have like 5 dollars. i listened to fr. mitch pacwa give a talk on mormons. he says mormons, jws, and muslims all believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are less then God. i doubt he’s wrong.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t read that book or books like it. I’ve read several of them. I’m just saying that the average LDS is not likely to go out and pick up those kinds of books.

 

[DeFide]

oat soda:

ok jerky, then why doesn’t it say so on the most offical website i can find? they are avoiding the issue on purpose. you just don’t leave that fact out. please, show me proof that mormons believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and not just called collectively a “Godhead”. if i had a nickle for everytime i’ve read on these threads by mormons that you should find LDS sources to learn what they believe i’d have like 5 dollars. i listened to fr. mitch pacwa give a talk on mormons. he says mormons, jws, and muslims all believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are less then God. i doubt he’s wrong.

You might want to start a new topic for this. Be nice!
See this: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909fea4.asp

 

[tkdnick]

oat soda:

ok jerky, then why doesn’t it say so on the most offical website i can find? they are avoiding the issue on purpose. you just don’t leave that fact out. please, show me proof that mormons believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God and not just called collectively a “Godhead”.

Here ya go…

From Catholic Answers:
· “Moreover, Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god.”
· “Mormons now believe that Christ’s divinity is virtually equal to that of his Father’s. As we have seen, this is a compromised godhood: Jesus Christ merely joins the end of a long line of gods who have preceded him, an infinite “regression” of divine beings whose origin Mormons cannot explain.”
· “Yet their third, separate god, called the Holy Ghost”
· “Latter-Day Saints do not believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the only three gods there are.”

From the LDS website:
· “The Holy Ghost—sometimes called the Holy Spirit—is the third member of the Godhead.”
· “The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead, along with God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.”

cont…

 

[tkdnick]

…cont

From LDS Scripture:

· 2 Nephi 31:21
“And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away•; and there is bnone• other way nor cname given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine• of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the eFather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is fone• God, without end. Amen.”
· Alma 11:38-39
“Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very aEternal• Father of heaven and of earth, and ball• things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;”
· Alma 11:44
"Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored• to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the bFather, and the Holy Spirit, which is cone• Eternal God"

And there isn’t any reason to call people names!!!