Mormons and authority

[Janderich]

If what you say is true why does NO OTHER Christian
Church in the world Protestant or Catholic consider
your Church a Christ like Church?
There is something
Zyour Church says and does that eliminates it
entirely from consideration as Christian.

I think it is because we don’t believe that God is one and yet three persons, don’t hold ourselves bound by Christian creeds, and do not consider other church’s baptisms and ordinances as having authority.

marywarfield:

You follow a different drummer than Christ.
For the very fact that you needed a new book a new
prophet a new life other than Christ indicates
you do NOT acknowledge Jesus Christ as the
one the only and final Lord of all.
And no person or Church who does not find Christ
the fullness of all can properly be called “Christian.”
Which is probably why your prophets act and
speak in constant opposition to Our Lord.

Again false. Moroni sums it up at the end of the Book of Mormon by saying:

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins that ye become holy, without spot (Moroni 10:32-33).

It is amazing that anyone says we don’t believe in Christ. Say we don’t believe in the false tradition of the trinity, a God that is three and one and one and three, but we believe in Christ and know who he is.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes. Joseph never claimed to be perfect. Indeed some during his time, saw Joseph’s brother Hyrum as more of the prophet type demeanor. But the Lord chose Joseph not Hyrum.

That is true. He was not perfect. he was a convicted con man, An adulterer, he tried to wife swap, he cheated people in a bank scandal, he had an illegal gun in jail and blindly tried to kill people while allegedly being a “lamb”, he violated the constitution, was an ego-maniac (needing to be a mayor and a general), lied about visions, plagiarized, committed statutory rape, and the list could go on.

yep…dfinite prophet material

 

[PaulDupre1]

I think it is because we don’t believe that God is one and yet three persons, don’t hold ourselves bound by Christian creeds, and do not consider other church’s baptisms and ordinances as having authority.

Again false. Moroni sums it up at the end of the Book of Mormon by saying: It is amazing that anyone says we don’t believe in Christ. Say we don’t believe in the false tradition of the trinity, a God that is three and one and one and three, but we believe in Christ and know who he is.

It is completely disingenuous to quote a BoM passage to prove that Mormonism is a Christian faith. The uniquely LDS doctrines that separate you from the Christian world are not found in the BoM.

Polytheism, polygamy, polyandry, blacks spiritually inferior to whites, man being co-eternal with God, the blood of Jesus insufficient to cleanse all sin - for all of these and many more, you need to go to the D&C or the PofGP. All of these were later inventions by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon and in many instances directly contradict the BoM.

Heck, the D&C contradicts and reverses the meaning of the same passages in the Book of Commandments.

Let’s get real here.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Janderich]

Another question has come to mind relative to “priesthood authority” and fallibility, especially in their presumed connection to “universal apostasy” (not a Biblical teaching):

If Joseph Smith qualified as a true prophet of God despite his self-confessed “weakness of youth and foibles of human nature,” and despite at times giving his own opinions (as doctrines), some of which were later discovered to be erroneous, yet none of these were sufficient to disqualify him as regards priesthood authority, then there is no justice on God’s part to disqualify any Pope or post-apostolic (arguing for the moment as though there really were a post-apostolic church) Bishop from continuing to hold the priesthood authority on account of their errors and foibles.

Human errors can be forgiven but when one refuses to hear the voice of the Lord and give heed to his words, they cut themselves off from the source. As the Lord testified to Joseph, “For they have strayed form mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall” (D&C 1:15-16)

Tarquin:

So why should God be so harsh with the early Christians, struggling to survive in a hostile society and doing a pretty blessed good job of it - willing to subject themselves for the sake of their faith to the such atrocities as: (Hebrews 11:37-38) * “They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (of whom the world was not worthy) - they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth;”* but contrariwise when it comes to others like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Gordon Hinckley making equally serious mistakes while under so much less persecution (in Hinckley’s situation, virtually none), He should be so lenient and allow them to keep their authority despite their doctrinal and procedural errors? The answer that comes to my mind is, He wasn’t. He wasn’t that harsh. He did not condemn the early Christians for doctrinal errors, or he does condemn modern Christians (i.e., Mormons) for them. In the first case, the authority remained and a restoration is not needed; in the second case, an apostasy occurred and a restoration is still needed.

Is there a contrary Mormon view that is balanced and reasonable rather than based on the assumption that the Catholic Church is wrong because it is the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church is right because we feel good about it?

There were many martyrs in the early Christian church who were valiant in the testimony of Jesus, even unto death, Joseph says as much. I believe they are heirs of salvation.

When ordinances are changed and the truth about how to approach God is obscured how can the fullness priesthood remain? I say it cannot.

 

[TexanKnight]

Human errors can be forgiven but when one refuses to hear the voice of the Lord and give heed to his words, they cut themselves off from the source.

like js did? he was a convicted con man, An adulterer, he tried to wife swap, he cheated people in a bank scandal, he had an illegal gun in jail and blindly tried to kill people while allegedly being a “lamb”, he violated the constitution, was an ego-maniac (needing to be a mayor and a general), lied about visions, plagiarized, committed statutory rape,

As the Lord testified to Joseph, “For they have strayed form mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall” (D&C 1:15-16)

is this the same D&C where js prophesied that folks would be missionaries in the spring but died before spring? Did the lds god not know who was gonna die?

There were many martyrs in the early Christian church who were valiant in the testimony of Jesus, even unto death, Joseph says as much. I believe they are heirs of salvation.

yep…the the Catholic Martyrs did not carry illegal weapons into jail and try to kill those who were coming for them.

 

[Janderich]

It is completely disingenuous to quote a BoM passage to prove that Mormonism is a Christian faith. The uniquely LDS doctrines that separate you from the Christian world are not found in the BoM.

No it is not. The BoM is core doctrine. Anyone who wants to know what we believe in must start with the BoM. Sure there are other teachings but they do not contradict the BoM or take it’s place.

Polytheism, polygamy, polyandry, blacks spiritually inferior to whites, man being co-eternal with God, the blood of Jesus insufficient to cleanse all sin - for all of these and many more, you need to go to the D&C or the PofGP. All of these were later inventions by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon and in many instances directly contradict the BoM.

I reject how you have falsely presented almost all of the above.

 

[TexanKnight]

No it is not. The BoM is core doctrine. Anyone who wants to know what we believe in must start with the BoM. Sure there are other teachings but they do not contradict the BoM or take it’s place.

actually, the b of m contradicts the Bible AND every area of science that has investigated it

I reject how you have falsely presented almost all of the above.

Actually, none was falsely represented. But if you want proof of false, let us discuss js as an alleged prophet. We can start with he was a convicted con man, An adulterer, he tried to wife swap, he cheated people in a bank scandal, he had an illegal gun in jail and blindly tried to kill people while allegedly being a “lamb”, he violated the constitution, was an ego-maniac (needing to be a mayor and a general), lied about visions, plagiarized, committed statutory rape,

 

[eddie_too]

what evidence exists that demonstrates that the early Church taught the faith differently after the death of the last apostle than it did during the lives of the apostles?

i am unaware of ANY evidence supporting such a claim. it appears to me, absent some kind of evidence, that the doctrines taught by the apostles have continued to be taught by their successors even to the present time.

if someone is going to claim that doctrine changed from that preached by the apostles after their deaths, it is upon those who make the claim to offer evidence that the claim is true.

without such evidence, those making the claim can rightly be dismissed as charlatans.

so, my mormon friends, where is the evidence?

also, for the evidence to be valid it must be contemporaneous to the time in which the alleged events occurred.

anyone can make things up about the past once everyone then living is dead.

i think all the biblical following christians are asking of the mormons is evidence for their claims.

 

[eddie_too]

“And he [Jesus] said unto them: what will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father? And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak the thing which they desired. And he said unto them; Behold I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews desired of me. …for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand” (3 Ne 28:4-5,9)."

i found one part of this quotation very interesting.

that part is where Jesus allegedly says that He was lifted up by the Jews. the only testimony we have from historical records is that Jesus was lifted up by the Romans.

how did God get this wrong. if this were true, then it would be reasonable to believe that nothing in the bible should be believed.

 

[PaulDupre1]

The uniquely LDS doctrines that separate you from the Christian world are not found in the BoM…Polytheism, polygamy, polyandry, blacks spiritually inferior to whites, man being co-eternal with God, the blood of Jesus insufficient to cleanse all sin - for all of these and many more, you need to go to the D&C or the PofGP. All of these were later inventions by Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon and in many instances directly contradict the BoM.

I reject how you have falsely presented almost all of the above.

That is very vague. Can you be more specific as to each point you reject and exactly why you reject it? Then we can discuss.

Thanks in advance.

Paul

 

[Horton]

I think it is because we don’t believe that God is one and yet three persons, don’t hold ourselves bound by Christian creeds, and do not consider other church’s baptisms and ordinances as having authority.

Again false. Moroni sums it up at the end of the Book of Mormon by saying: It is amazing that anyone says we don’t believe in Christ. Say we don’t believe in the false tradition of the trinity, a God that is three and one and one and three, but we believe in Christ and know who he is.

Thank you for confirming mormons are not Christians,

Through much of this thread you have used mormon sourced information to attempt to prove the LDS story. It’s a shame mormons discourage the study of unauthorized material for all. During my conversion home to the Catholic Church I was (and still am) encouraged to study materials of my choosing.

Believing in Christ and knowing who He is does not alone make you Christian. I would think even satanists believe in Christ and know of Him and they never have claimed to be Christian.

 

[marywarfield]

I think it is because we don’t believe that God is one and yet three persons, don’t hold ourselves bound by Christian creeds, and do not consider other church’s baptisms and ordinances as having authority.

Again false. Moroni sums it up at the end of the Book of Mormon by saying: It is amazing that anyone says we don’t believe in Christ. Say we don’t believe in the false tradition of the trinity, a God that is three and one and one and three, but we believe in Christ and know who he is.

If you believed in Christ you would need no other
word than His. Hence there would be no Book of
Mormon outranking Gods own word.
If you believed in Christ you would not put Him in
the same place as Lucifer.
And most especially if you believed in Christ as
He truly is you would not make gods of yourselves
and Smith on planets in space.
It is relatively clear that you like most Mormons
who come to my door know less about your Church
than the rest of us do. Go to your LDS library, read
what is ACTUALLY taught and was really said by Young
and Smith and figure out why Mormons will never
be a part of the Christian community.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Human errors can be forgiven but when one refuses to hear the voice of the Lord and give heed to his words, they cut themselves off from the source. As the Lord testified to Joseph, "For they have strayed form mine ordinances,

You say the Catholics “changed the ordinance” by allowing baptism to be performed using pouring or sprinkling. Yet the LDS have changed the washing and annointing to from being fully bathed naked to having a few words spoken while dressed. Not to mention the several complete rewrites of the endowment, which your former prophets said was revealed from heaven and could never be altered.

…and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

You mean like abandoning the “new and everlasting covenant” of plural marriage?

…they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way,

Like the fact that your prophets and apostles just give their own opinions and pass them off as doctrine. Then later prophets and apostles say “Don’t pay attention to what the former prophets said. Follow what we say now”

and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon,

Like the idol that is money, which seems to be all that the corporation of the president of the cojcolds really cares about. The only prophetic utterance from the LDS in recent memory is “Let’s go shopping!!”

even Babylon the great, which shall fall" (D&C 1:15-16)

From where I sit, the LDS church is in far greater apostacy from your founders and their teachings than we are from ours.

When ordinances are changed and the truth about how to approach God is obscured how can the fullness priesthood remain? I say it cannot.

Indeed. Jesus never said that he would appear to prophets and dictate revelations. But he did say to his disciples that the Holy Spirit would guide the church into all truth, as we believe he does by guiding the magisterium of the Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

You have changed your ordinances, abandoned others, and obscured your prophets’ approach to God. Joseph Smith declared that all revelations, even the most banal (as witnessed in the D&C), must be written down and published. Yet now you say that your prophets’ revelations are too sacred to be discussed, and so we don’t know what revelations are received, if any at all.

I say that your prophets are not prophets at all and receive no revelation, and that the LDS is in apostacy. It is your organization that has changed the ordinances, broken the covenant and chased after the things of the world.

Paul

 

[marywarfield]

The primary reason no one can ever consider Mormons
Christian no matter how well they dress, how chaste
they are in and out of polygamy, or do not drink caffeine
is the Mormon god is not the God of Abraham- He who
links and creates a commonality of all Protestants with
Catholics with Jews and Islam.
No Mormonism is a pagan religion every bit as much
as the old Roman Zeus and Greek Appollo and today’s
modern Wicca witches. Simply because Mormons
are polytheistic like the pagans. And form new idols
from themselves. And their father god/gods all required a human
body and created nothing.
These original father Gid/gods were every bit as
vindictive and malicious self serving and petty as
Zeus. That ONE simple thing all Mormons dismiss
as trivial is the biggest fence between Mormons and
all other Judeo Christian and Islamic religions- the Trinity.
Quite simply put/ Mormons follow the false God.

 

[Tarquin]

Janderich, I sincerely “appreciate” your efforts to defend the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith. The reason is that, while I am already familiar with the usual style of Mormons’ reasoning and argumentation, as more and more Mormons and non-Mormons learn more and more details about the founding, the history, the statements of Mormon prophets and apostle-prophets, the Mormon scriptures, American archaelogy, and 19th century culture: Mormons revise their arguments. I like to know what those arguments are, in order to better understand how Mormons think about their own Scriptures and teachings, and how that thinking is evolving, as it did with the RLDS, into a more traditional form of Christianity.

I know, for example, that Mormons are very confident that theirs is “the true church” even when they (some of them) know they are not able to defend or explain it or its doctrines. That’s human nature. We all share that human quality. Conviction without clarity. The Mormon teachings that education is a life-long endeavor is a great truth.

In that light – wanting to understand how you as a Mormon explain things – and also seeing contradictions, I make the following remarks. Despite my doubt that these have doctrinal importance. Frankly, I don’t think there are any solid, unalterable Mormon doctrines beyond “Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and the Mormon Church is the true church.” Those are the only two doctrines I see people fully committed to; all the rest has so far proven to be expendable residue.

To the question, “why does no other Christian Church in the world Protestant or Catholic consider your Church a Christ like Church?, you replied:

I think it is because we don’t believe that God is one and yet three persons,

Hearken to these plain and precious truths given by the Lord (who cannot lie) unto Mormons:

“For if there be no Christ there be no God;” - 2 Nephi 11:7 (3 = 1 because: if 3 - 1 = 0, then 3 = 1)

“Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent . . .” - Mosiah 5:15 (apposition not concatenation)

“And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations” – Book of Mormon “Title Page”

“. . . sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God . . .” - Mormon 7:7 (3 = 1)

“And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.” – 3 Nephi 11:36 (3 = 1)
Of course, as a Mormon, you have to reject these plain and simple teachings from the Book of Mormon. That’s okay. I love you anyway

You posted in reply to PaulDupre1

The BoM is core doctrine. Anyone who wants to know what we believe in must start with the BoM. Sure there are other teachings but they do not contradict the BoM or take it’s place.

Please see above quotes from the Book of Mormon. Please reject all teachings of your church that contradict these plain and precious Book of Mormon teachings or attempt to displace them.

I think it is because we . . . don’t hold ourselves bound by Christian creeds,

But you do! Including such universal and nearly universal creedal statements as:

“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” (virtually universally accepted)

“We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (nearly universally accepted; some don’t absolutely require immersion; some don’t require laying on of hands)

“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (probably universally accepted)

These are from your very own creed, the Mormon Church creed! You did know the Mormon Church has a creed, right?

Mormons do hold themselves bound by a Christian creed as much as any Christian church possessing a creed. Don’t say they don’t. You are even tasked with memorizing the Articles of Faith, are you not? But you don’t have to memorize the New Testament, nor the Book of Mormon, save for some scattered verses.

I think it is because we . . . do not consider other church’s baptisms and ordinances as having authority.

Do you believe the Mormon church has authority? Doctrine and Covenants 124:32 suggests to me (suggests, not persuades) that the Mormon Church has been “rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.” I have, by the way, read a couple of attempts to interpret that section to show that the church was not rejected, but those arguments, suggestive in nature, as yet have not proven persuasive.

Again false. Moroni sums it up at the end of the Book of Mormon by saying: It is amazing that anyone says we don’t believe in Christ. Say we don’t believe in the false tradition of the trinity, a God that is three and one and one and three, but we believe in Christ and know who he is.

“Who he is”? He is Jesus. If you mean more than that, I do not understand.

 

[Tarquin]

Our witness is that Christ remembers one nation like unto another. As he said, Moreover, the core doctrine of our church is the atonement and resurrection of Christ, as stated by Joseph Smith himself,

In my opinion, the core doctrine and possibly the only true, unchangeable doctrines of the Mormon Church are “Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Mormon Church is the only true church.”

I understand how you would see the atonement as a core doctrine, but not the resurrection, since whether Jesus himself resurrected or not, the atonement is sufficient according to the Mormon teachings I have read, for the resurrection of everyone else. Once the atonement is completed, Jesus is no longer needed. He could be replaced by Gabriel or Raphael or Zedoniel, or some other angel of high repute who is not already in a trinity (e.g., Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael). In fact, only Elohim cannot be replaced, I presume. Others theoretically could be - and in once case, has been.

Human errors can be forgiven but when one refuses to hear the voice of the Lord and give heed to his words, they cut themselves off from the source. As the Lord testified to Joseph, “For they have strayed form mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall” (D&C 1:15-16) .

So are you now saying that the apostasy was not the result of knowledgeable authority-bearing apostles dying out without having prepared anyone to take their place, but was the result of either the apostles or those they had prepared, suddenly refusing to listen any more, suddenly turning against the teachings that the apostles had given them, changing the ordinances (why and in what way!!), and breaking their covenants. Which ones!, especially which ones did they break so terribly that they were cast out rather than, as is the case with Mormons today when they cannot perfectly fulfill their temple covenants, they do not have the priesthood removed from them, but are “labored with” to bring them “more in harmony" with the Lord’s will?

There were many martyrs in the early Christian church who were valiant in the testimony of Jesus, even unto death, Joseph says as much. I believe they are heirs of salvation.

But the question was not were there some good people who stayed true to their faith to the point of death. The question was: Since God was willing to disqualify post-apostolic church officers (holding priesthood authority) because of their errors and foibles, then why in God’s name would God switch his standards when Joseph Smith comes along, and not disqualify him for his own “weakness of youth and foibles of human nature,” and for teaching his own opinions as doctrines, which were later discovered to be erroneous? It cannot just be that God hates Jews and Catholics, but love Mormons and Indians, can it? But I seriously see no other explanation in light of Mormon teaching, than that God loves people based on their race and religion. Quite frankly, the picture of God you are painting is of a God who is either arbitrary or bigoted. I’m not exaggerating. If there is a way to reconcile this, I’m all ears.

When ordinances are changed and the truth about how to approach God is obscured how can the fullness priesthood remain? I say it cannot.

Me, too, probably. Please detail which ordinances were changed, by whom (if not names, then offices held – apostle, bishop, elder, deacon) and roughly when, and what city or region or province, and how - internal memo, Sunday sermon, publication of a new, sinfully edited catechism, subtle changes bit by bit without telling anyone what he was doing; and why didn’t any who were not yet corrupted by these changes speak up and say, “You are changing the ordinances. You are corrupting the priesthood. You are violating the doctrines”?

This way, I can come to the truth in the way that the Lord told Joseph Smith he could come to understand how to translate from one language into another: “ But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” – Doctrine and Covenants 9:8. Lest someone hold the notion that this procedure of studying things out to determine truth applies only to Joseph Smith translating the approximately 200 pounds of metal he claimed to have found, I quote also from Doctrine and Covenants 88:118 “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”

Could you refer me to some books where these changes of ordinances are documented. Not minor changes, like the size or design on an altar cloth, or the liturgy (since many of today’s Mormon liturgies are very different from those in the 1800s, so that can’t be a disqualifier, can it?), or church structure (since the Mormon church added Assistant Presidents, took them away, added them again, totally eliminated the office of “pastor” and have altered roles and functions of other offices), or minor changes in teachings that are “not necessary for salvation”?

 

[marywarfield]

Once we realize that the birth of the Mormon
Jesus was dependent on a man god having sexual
relations with the Virgin Mary we can begin to
understand why it is useless to argue with
a Mormon who knows not his own teachings.
From a Catholic point of view this scenario would
be such a huge insult and so outrageous to God
that spiritual graces would not be forthcoming to
a Mormon especially the graces of wisdom and
prudence.
One cant reasonably approach the host at a dinner
party, slap him silly and insult his family and still
expect an invitation to dessert.

Without God’s cooperation any attempt to strive
for a holiness trophy is useless and insulting His
Holy Mother will land a person in the chaos found
in the Book of Mormon.

A person can quite reasonably gauge the chaos
found in any non Catholic religion by the degree of
insult to the Holy Mother of God. In fact doing so
is often a confidence booster for Catholics. Therefore
in Episcopalian and Lutheran religions the degrees
of cognitive dissonance found is minimal compared
to what is found with Jack Chick. Yet even Jack Chick
himself denounces Mormonism an “anti Christ”.

 

[twopekinguys]

You say the Catholics “changed the ordinance” by allowing baptism to be performed using pouring or sprinkling. Yet the LDS have changed the washing and annointing to from being fully bathed naked to having a few words spoken while dressed. Not to mention the several complete rewrites of the endowment, which your former prophets said was revealed from heaven and could never be altered.

Personally, I would like a reference/proof for J’s claim that baptismal practices were changed by the Catholic Church.

I haven’t seen anything that says Jesus was immersed. The Bible says he went down

Matthew 3:13-16

“As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.”

Was he ankle deep? Waist deep? I don’t see any reference to immersion.

J, please provide a reference for your assertion on the changing of Baptism. Also, still waiting for your proof on this whole “translated being” thing you claim.

 

[Janderich]

To the question, “why does no other Christian Church in the world Protestant or Catholic consider your Church a Christ like Church?, you replied:Hearken to these plain and precious truths given by the Lord (who cannot lie) unto Mormons:

“For if there be no Christ there be no God;” - 2 Nephi 11:7 (3 = 1 because: if 3 - 1 = 0, then 3 = 1) And the next statement is, “if there be no God we are not.” I believe this makes three, God, Christ, and ourselves; all individual, all distinct. You see 3 does not = 1, I could ask my 5 year old and she would get it right. However, 1+1+1 does equal 3.

“Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent . . .” - Mosiah 5:15 (apposition not concatenation) I see no contradiction here, just because one person is omnipotent doesn’t mean another cannot be. It is not a competition, the will of the Father is the will of the Son.

“And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations” – Book of Mormon “Title Page” Again, no contradiction. Christ is the eternal God, the Father is the eternal God.

“. . . sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God . . .” - Mormon 7:7 (3 = 1)Yes, of course they are one. They are of the same mind, they share the same Spirit. This does not mean that all three of the are the same person.

“And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.” – 3 Nephi 11:36 (3 = 1)Same as above.
Of course, as a Mormon, you have to reject these plain and simple teachings from the Book of Mormon. That’s okay. I love you anyway

Why reject such an obvious fact? Listen to your heart it is telling you the truth. Have the philosophies of men got so in the way?

Tarquin:

But you do! Including such universal and nearly universal creedal statements as:

“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” (virtually universally accepted)

“We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (nearly universally accepted; some don’t absolutely require immersion; some don’t require laying on of hands)

“We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (probably universally accepted)

These are from your very own creed, the Mormon Church creed! You did know the Mormon Church has a creed, right?

Mormons do hold themselves bound by a Christian creed as much as any Christian church possessing a creed. Don’t say they don’t. You are even tasked with memorizing the Articles of Faith, are you not? But you don’t have to memorize the New Testament, nor the Book of Mormon, save for some scattered verses.

We of course have certain written beliefs but when we find a new truth we do not allow dead words to prevent the Spirit from teaching us. The Lord will speak the truth to the heart of man if he is open to receive it. But so often we cast it out because of our false notions. I have been given some profound truths which I hold close and speak to almost no one. As Joseph said, “I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, “Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further”, which I cannot subscribe to” (TPJS p327)

Tarquin:

Do you believe the Mormon church has authority? Doctrine and Covenants 124:32 suggests to me (suggests, not persuades) that the Mormon Church has been “rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.” I have, by the way, read a couple of attempts to interpret that section to show that the church was not rejected, but those arguments, suggestive in nature, as yet have not proven persuasive.

D&C 124: 32 sets stipulations about what may happen if a temple is not built. But the temple was built, and ordinances performed so it is difficult to use this to say the LDS church has been rejected by God. A much firmer foundation can be found for this scripture, “And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received - which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. …until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written” (D&C 84:54-56) I focus more on avoiding this condemnation.

Tarquin:

“Who he is”? He is Jesus. If you mean more than that, I do not understand.

Yes, Jesus the Christ.

 

[marywarfield]

Why reject such an obvious fact? Listen to your heart it is telling you the truth. Have the philosophies of men got so in the way?

We of course have certain written beliefs but when we find a new truth we do not allow dead words to prevent the Spirit from teaching us. The Lord will speak the truth to the heart of man if he is open to receive it. But so often we cast it out because of our false notions. I have been given some profound truths which I hold close and speak to almost no one. As Joseph said, “I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, “Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further”, which I cannot subscribe to” (TPJS p327)
D&C 124: 32 sets stipulations about what may happen if a temple is not built. But the temple was built, and ordinances performed so it is difficult to use this to say the LDS church has been rejected by God. A much firmer foundation can be found for this scripture, “And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received - which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. …until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written” (D&C 84:54-56) I focus more on avoiding this condemnation.
Yes, Jesus the Christ.

You can’t prove a following of Christ by quoting books
created to compete with His actual Word. A Christian
accepts and seeks no other Word than what Christ Himself
spoke in the Gospel. The Book of Mormon and the
D &C do nothing more than insult the the actual
Gospel of the Lord for indicating He left something
undone and unsaid and was somehow insufficient thereby needing
a Methodist gold diviner to “fix” that where Christ failed.
Again, the more you present this the more you
prove the point that Mormonism is no more Christian
than Wicca.