Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[Catholic20064]

Well, you are correct. Of course, the sense in which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult is exactly the same sense in which Catholicism is, you realize that, right?

I’ve never been questioned regarding my worthiness as a Catholic. I go to confession voluntarily – all of the initiative is on my side. While I am asked to confess my serious sins at least once a year, nobody questions me if I don’t show up. That’s the big difference between Catholicism and Mormonism – Catholicism treats me like an adult.

 

[dianaiad]

This is what I say; befriend the Mormons and tolerate them when you can, but do not be quiet about their heresy’s and blaspheming! CULT!

Your constant harping on that word, ‘cult’ (in caps, no less) followed by a wink or smilie reminds me of the kids on the playground who think that they can say the most horrific and hurtful things imaginable–and even do some shoving and hitting—as long as they follow it up with ‘I’m just playin’ or “can’t you take a joke?”

Would you be so kind as to define the word “cult” for us, so that we know exactly what it is you are saying behind the “oops, my bad” giggly emoticon thing?

 

[dianaiad]

A religion that requires you to pay 10% of your income to attend your childrens’ weddings while at the same time requiring unwavering obedience to their leader with searching questioning of your worthiness every couple of years might be signs of a cult. Quoting George Albert Smith:

First, Catholics also advocate tithing.
Second, George Albert Smith did NOT say 'when our leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done."

In fact, George Albert Smith wrote the following as a direct result of that particular quote having appeared in that 1945 edition of the Improvement Era: I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

You can find the link to the full text of the Improvement Era article in which this quote (“the thinking has been done”) as well as the full text of President Smith’s letter regarding it, here.

Third, your definition of ‘cult’ seems to be rather strangely tailored, and rather odd coming from someone who belongs to a faith that has their members confess to their own priests far more often than every couple of years. What, getting interviewed by a bishop every other year or so is more intrusive than going to confession every week?

Would you care to rethink that one a bit?

 

[Catholic20064]

First, Catholics also advocate tithing.
Second, George Albert Smith did NOT say 'when our leaders have spoken, the thinking has been done."

In fact, George Albert Smith wrote the following as a direct result of that particular quote having appeared in that 1945 edition of the Improvement Era: I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

You can find the link to the full text of the Improvement Era article in which this quote (“the thinking has been done”) as well as the full text of President Smith’s letter regarding it, here.

Third, your definition of ‘cult’ seems to be rather strangely tailored, and rather odd coming from someone who belongs to a faith that has their members confess to their own priests far more often than every couple of years. What, getting interviewed by a bishop every other year or so is more intrusive than going to confession every week?

Would you care to rethink that one a bit?

Nope – it’s completely different. No priest requires me to come in and answer his questions to prove my “worthiness” as Mormonism does. I am not required to pay a specific amount of money in order to take the sacrament or even to be saved in the next life. I don’t have to pay for my salvation like Mormons do. The entire temple experience is what changes Mormonism from a normal religion to a cult.

 

[dianaiad]

I’ve never been questioned regarding my worthiness as a Catholic. I go to confession voluntarily – all of the initiative is on my side. While I am asked to confess my serious sins at least once a year, nobody questions me if I don’t show up. That’s the big difference between Catholicism and Mormonism – Catholicism treats me like an adult.

Y’know what?

Nobody questions me if I don’t 'show up," either. …and the pressure on you to go to confession is exactly the same as the ‘pressure’ on us to do what we need to do; that is, moral and theological.

For instance, I do not see that you, as a Catholic, are ‘worshiping statues’ because you have images of Mary in your home, or genuflect in your churches, or light candles in front of images. I understand the value and force of symbols very well. I know Who you worship, and why, and what the purpose IS of those very rich and powerful symbols you have. I understand the force and purpose of confession, and while I do not agree with, much less completely understand, the idea of the eucharist as more than a symbol, I understand that YOU do, and that’s sufficient for me.

But quite frankly, a whole bunch of non-Catholics look at it and see paganism baptized; it makes them uncomfortable and they portray it very negatively. They call you ‘cannibals.’

Perhaps it would be a good idea, then, for you to back off a little here. We do things that we understand quite well; we do not feel that we are under extreme pressure to do what we would rather not do any more than you think you are worshiping a statue when you genuflect or light candles.

 

[dianaiad]

Nope – it’s completely different. No priest requires me to come in and answer his questions to prove my “worthiness” as Mormonism does. I am not required to pay a specific amount of money in order to take the sacrament or even to be saved in the next life. I don’t have to pay for my salvation like Mormons do. The entire temple experience is what changes Mormonism from a normal religion to a cult.

CAtholics, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, have a 'serious obligation, according to their abilities, to contribute to the financial needs of the Church," and the standard tithe, or 10% is recommended.

"tithing was expected from the faithful from the 1st century (as taught by St. Paul).

This information was found here and the expert is Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM, Lth.

You have a skewed view of what is required of both Mormons and Catholics, sir—with a biased view of the first, and forgetting that which is required of the second.

 

[007]

From my experience, as long as religion and politics isn’t the subject at hand, anyone can get along with anyone.

 

[Zundrah]

Your constant harping on that word, ‘cult’ (in caps, no less) followed by a wink or smilie reminds me of the kids on the playground who think that they can say the most horrific and hurtful things imaginable–and even do some shoving and hitting—as long as they follow it up with ‘I’m just playin’ or “can’t you take a joke?”

Would you be so kind as to define the word “cult” for us, so that we know exactly what it is you are saying behind the “oops, my bad” giggly emoticon thing?

“You guys believe that you will become Gods after you die! - blasphemy! You also believe that God was once a man! - heresy!”

You never answered this! This defines the meaning of a CULT! ha, ha, ha!

Mormons have no evidence of the “great apostasy”, there for they are just a formed cult that never wanted to abide by Jesus’s church so they made up their own… tch…

 

[Zundrah]

Well, you are correct. Of course, the sense in which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult is exactly the same sense in which Catholicism is, you realize that, right?

So, now you’re calling the catholic church a cult!? :tsktsk:
You are very funny! You should have been a comedian!

 

[Zundrah]

A religion that requires you to pay 10% of your income to attend your childrens’ weddings while at the same time requiring unwavering obedience to their leader with searching questioning of your worthiness every couple of years might be signs of a cult. Quoting George Albert Smith:

Thank for your help Catholic20064!

 

[Catholic20064]

CAtholics, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, have a 'serious obligation, according to their abilities, to contribute to the financial needs of the Church," and the standard tithe, or 10% is recommended.

"tithing was expected from the faithful from the 1st century (as taught by St. Paul).

This information was found here and the expert is Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM, Lth.

You have a skewed view of what is required of both Mormons and Catholics, sir—with a biased view of the first, and forgetting that which is required of the second.

From Catholic Answers:

Although the Church teaches that offering some form of material support to the Church is obligatory for all Catholic adults who are able to do so, it doesn’t specify what percent of one’s income should be given. Remember, tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Christians are dispensed from the obligation of tithing ten percent of their incomes, but not from the obligation to help the Church.

The key to understanding how God wants us to give to the Church is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2, “On the first day of the week [Sunday] each of you should set aside whatever he can afford,” and in 2 Corinthians 9:5-8, “So I thought it necessary to encourage the brothers to go on ahead to you and arrange in advance for your promised gift [donation], so that in this way it might be ready as a bountiful gift and not as an exaction. Consider this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each must do as already determined without sadness or compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Moreover, God is able to make every grace abundant for you, so that in all things, always having all you need, you may have an abundance for every good work.”

To paraphrase: God doesn’t demand a fixed amount of money from us; he wants us to give from the heart. If people are forced by their church to give a certain percent of their income, that’s extortion. If they give freely and cheerfully the amount they are able, that’s a gift.

Here is the web site link:

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9205qq.asp

Look at this article:

catholicexchange.com/2002/11/12/80787/

Note the following:

“The faithful have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his abilities” (CCC #2034)

I go by the Catechism, not the Catholic Encyclopedia.

There is never any percentage specified as a requirement although 10 percent is often suggested. Don’t tell me I don’t know about my religion – I think I know it better than you do.

 

[ParkerD]

"You guys believe that you will become Gods after you die! - blasphemy!

Zundrah,
I see you are having a good evening and good fun. Here is an interesting set of quotes:

Jordan Vajda wrote the following in his thesis on the subject:

“…as the [LDS] doctrine of exaltation explains, the fullness of human salvation means “becoming a god.” Yet what was meant to be a term of ridicule has turned out to be a term of approbation, for the witness of the Greek Fathers of the Church . . . is that they also believed that salvation meant “becoming a god.” It seems that if one’s soteriology cannot accommodate a doctrine of human divinization, then it has at least implicitly, if not explicitly, rejected the heritage of the early Christian church and departed from the faith of first millennium Christianity. However, if that is the case, those who would espouse such a soteriology also believe, in fact, that Christianity, from about the second century on, has apostatized and “gotten it wrong” on this core issue of human salvation. Thus, ironically, those who would excoriate Mormons for believing in the doctrine of exaltation actually agree with them that the early church experienced a “great apostasy” on fundamental doctrinal questions.” (All are his words, not mine.)

A careful reading shows he is not saying Catholics don’t believe in theosis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
I agree that theosis was taught in the early church. I don’t get the feeling from the way people react that theosis is taught in the current church doctrinal explanations that Catholics in general rely on. Otherwise, why would so many be so critical of the LDS belief on this particular subject? "

How about the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: [2 Pt 1:4] “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” [St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939] “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” [St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4] [1265, 1391, 1988]

Imprimi Potest
+Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church

This shows we currently teach theosis and the quotes given show we have taught it all along. It is just one entry in the CCC of many that discuss this subject."–Zaffiroborant

 

[Catholic20064]

Thank for your help Catholic20064!

Another way we might consider the Mormon Church a cult is their refusal to tell non-members what happens to them in the temple. They claim they don’t want to do this because it is too sacred, but the reality is a person converting to Mormonism doesn’t know about the secret teachings of the church prior to joining. They often aren’t told about certain doctrines of the church until they are ready for the “meat”. They certainly don’t know about what will happen to them in the temple. They often don’t know anything about the King Follet teachings even though that sermon contains many important doctrines of the LDS Church. Hiding certain teachings is the sure sign of a cult. Prior to joining the Catholic Church everyone is aware of what they are going to sign up for.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A religion that requires you to pay 10% of your income to attend your childrens’ weddings while at the same time requiring unwavering obedience to their leader with searching questioning of your worthiness every couple of years might be signs of a cult. Quoting George Albert Smith:

To be fair, Catholics are required to believe what the Pope dictates. This means they cannot use birth control, must go to Confession at least once a year, and attend Mass every Sunday and on Holy Days of Obligation, among other things. Although the Catholic Church does not require a 10% tithe, there are many many ways we are strongly “encouraged” to give money. Not just for the weekly contribution, but to charities, capital campaigns, catholic educations, etc., etc. Catholics usually respond by way of the guilt factor!

 

[ParkerD]

Another way we might consider the Mormon Church a cult is their refusal to tell non-members what happens to them in the temple. They claim they don’t want to do this because it is too sacred, but the reality is a person converting to Mormonism doesn’t know about the secret teachings of the church prior to joining. They often aren’t told about certain doctrines of the church until they are ready for the “meat”. They certainly don’t know about what will happen to them in the temple. They often don’t know anything about the King Follet teachings even though that sermon contains many important doctrines of the LDS Church. Hiding certain teachings is the sure sign of a cult. Prior to joining the Catholic Church everyone is aware of what they are going to sign up for.

Catholic20064,
If you went to the temple without temple preparation classes and without reading “The House of the Lord” then that was your choice, but it wasn’t for having not been asked to do that. The material tells what is involved in going to the temple and making those covenants. Do you think there should be a written test as to whether a person has sufficiently studied and prepared themselves to make those covenants?

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
If you went to the temple without temple preparation classes and without reading “The House of the Lord” then that was your choice, but it wasn’t for having not been asked to do that. The material tells what is involved in going to the temple and making those covenants. Do you think there should be a written test as to whether a person has sufficiently studied and prepared themselves to make those covenants?

Maybe you should give this class to your investigators. Before my mission I wasn’t given any classes, but that was over 30 years ago. It is cultish to hide your temple requirements from the outside world and it is cultish to have “worthiness” interviews prior to getting in. It is cultish to extort 10% of a family’s income in order to attend their childrens’ weddings. I don’t know of any other religion that requires such steps. It’s a form of control which is often applied differently by local authorities – they have a real control over what you can do based on their interpretation of Mormon teaching. It has all kinds of potential for abuse.

 

[ParkerD]

Catholic20064,
Your comments make me wonder if you have ever made a covenant sincerely and have understood what you were doing when you made it. I also wonder if you really believe the Biblical Old Testament prophet Malachi, who spoke very directly about the law of tithing and “robbing God”.

There are missionary preparation classes, and youth are strongly encouraged to prepare for their missions. I don’t get why you push the responsibility off of your own shoulders onto the shoulders of someone else that you didn’t prepare yourself as you had been asked to do.

This seems to be a crux issue in your life, based on the fervency of your comments on this subject. I feel strongly about self-accountability for one’s own choices in life.

The temple is the House of the Lord. Evidently, you think anyone should be able to enter. I think anyone who has understood the Old Testament at all would disagree with you.

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
Your comments make me wonder if you have ever made a covenant sincerely and have understood what you were doing when you made it. I also wonder if you really believe the Biblical Old Testament prophet Malachi, who spoke very directly about the law of tithing and “robbing God”.

There are missionary preparation classes, and youth are strongly encouraged to prepare for their missions. I don’t get why you push the responsibility off of your own shoulders onto the shoulders of someone else that you didn’t prepare yourself as you had been asked to do.

This seems to be a crux issue in your life, based on the fervency of your comments on this subject. I feel strongly about self-accountability for one’s own choices in life.

The temple is the House of the Lord. Evidently, you think anyone should be able to enter. I think anyone who has understood the Old Testament at all would disagree with you.

I’m very happy with my life choices. I think accountability goes both ways. The LDS Church should be accountable to those they are trying to convert. That means people should understand what they are getting into before they enter the LDS Church. Instead the LDS Church hides its temple ordinances and many of its doctrines before the unsuspecting prospect gets baptized. They then tell the new members about them in a class for new members after they have been baptized! As a Catholic I was required to go to classes every week for several months and all of the essential doctrines about Catholicism were on the table. We were encouraged to question everything. The Mormon missionaries often try to hide the “meat”. I don’t remember that Jews in the Old Testament were banned from their children’s weddings as part of their temple ceremonies. If the Mormon Church weren’t embarrassed by what goes on in the temple they would let everyone know about it and allow non-members access to view what is going on. The secret temple ceremonies are a legacy of Joseph Smith attempting to hide his polygamous relationships. It is the sure sign of a cult. The members were so uncomfortable with some aspects of the ceremony that the church itself actually deleted the parts that were making them uncomfortable!

 

[Catholic20064]

Another evidence that Mormonism is a cult is its lack of financial accountability. Members pay in and have no idea where the money is being spent. For all we know the General Authorities are funneling the funds to their relatives for building projects, etc. Why won’t the Mormon Church let the public know how it spends its money?

 

[ParkerD]

Catholic20064,
I’m glad you’re happy about all your choices throughout your life.

I question whether you understand what the gift of the Holy Ghost was promised for in the original church. Was it not to enable enlightment from God, including receiving personal revelation and the strength to keep covenants made with God? A person needs to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before they will begin to have an enlightened understanding of “heavenly things.” This is why they are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and cannot go to the temple for at least a year thereafter (except to be proxy for baptisms for the dead.)

Don’t you remember having studied in the Old Testament that those who entered the temple made special preparations before entering? Do you think Solomon’s temple and the ordinances done there should have been made public and open to anyone?

Now with this new comment, I sense that you don’t trust God, don’t trust anyone who makes covenants with God, and need proof every step of the way. I don’t think you have gotten this from Catholicism–it sounds like your own uncertainty about a lot of things coming out. That’s OK–but I disagree that I should not trust people who have made covenants just because someone like you doesn’t.