Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
I’m glad you’re happy about all your choices throughout your life.

I question whether you understand what the gift of the Holy Ghost was promised for in the original church. Was it not to enable enlightment from God, including receiving personal revelation and the strength to keep covenants made with God? A person needs to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before they will begin to have an enlightened understanding of “heavenly things.” This is why they are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and cannot go to the temple for at least a year thereafter (except to be proxy for baptisms for the dead.)

Don’t you remember having studied in the Old Testament that those who entered the temple made special preparations before entering? Do you think Solomon’s temple and the ordinances done there should have been made public and open to anyone?

So essentially you are telling me when I realized that Mormonism was false and became a Catholic the Holy Spirit was no longer leading me and that by becoming a Catholic I had broken my covenants with God. Your claim is that as a Catholic I do not have the Holy Ghost to lead me.

Catholic and Mormons can get along fine, but don’t ever try to tell me we can agree on theology. Mormonism is either completely true or completely false. If Joseph Smith wasn’t who he said he was, he was one of the biggest charlatans and lied about his relationship with Jesus. The Mormon religion rises and falls on the claims of Joseph Smith, not Jesus. But where is the evidence that Joseph Smith’s claims are true – the Book of Mormon? Where is the evidence for the Book of Mormon? There isn’t any.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Catholic and Mormons can get along fine, but don’t ever try to tell me we can agree on theology. Mormonism is either completely true or completely false. If Joseph Smith wasn’t who he said he was, he was one of the biggest charlatans and lied about his relationship with Jesus. The Mormon religion rises and falls on the claims of Joseph Smith, not Jesus. But where is the evidence that Joseph Smith’s claims are true – the Book of Mormon? Where is the evidence for the Book of Mormon? There isn’t any.

As I told my brother (who converted to the LDS Church) years ago… We may both be wrong, but we cannot both be right. To my perspective it is quite clear that the two faiths are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ParkerD]

Catholic20064,
I have repeatedly said that Catholics can have the Holy Ghost in their decisions and actions. I have no idea whether you do or you don’t. You get to decide that.

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
I have repeatedly said that Catholics can have the Holy Ghost in their decisions and actions. I have no idea whether you do or you don’t. You get to decide that.

You insinuated I was uncertain about my faith. I am not at all – I believe the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. The Mormon Church is a false cult which is unwilling to tell its potential converts what it really believes. I understand Mormonism completely after spending more than three decades in its clutches and still being subjected to it through my family. The Mormon Church can’t be reasonably defended because it’s entire foundation is built on sand – the false teachings of Joseph Smith.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

As I told my brother (who converted to the LDS Church) years ago… We may both be wrong, but we cannot both be right. To my perspective it is quite clear that the two faiths are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

Peace,
Robert

And yet in some ways, they are more the same than other Christians, such as:

Both have an ultimate authority - Pope/Prophet
Both have rites/ceremonies
Both have priests/hierarchies
Both have parishes/wards
Both do not believe in Sola Scripture but have other teachings
Both have beautiful buildings to worship in

All of the above are very unlikely in other Christian denominations.

 

[Catholic20064]

And yet in some ways, they are more the same than other Christians, such as:

Both have an ultimate authority - Pope/Prophet
Both have rites/ceremonies
Both have priests/hierarchies
Both have parishes/wards
Both do not believe in Sola Scripture but have other teachings
Both have beautiful buildings to worship in

All of the above are very unlikely in other Christian denominations.

And the fact that both of them are so much the same means one is the counterfeit of the other. Based on the lack of evidence for Joseph Smith’s claims, Mormonism is the counterfeit. It’s impossible for there to be much of a compromise on our different truth claims.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And the fact that both of them are so much the same means one is the counterfeit of the other. Based on the lack of evidence for Joseph Smith’s claims, Mormonism is the counterfeit. It’s impossible for there to be much of a compromise on our different truth claims.

I thought of one more. You are not saved by faith alone, you have do do good works.

But why would Joseph Smith model his church on Catholicism? I don’t think he was really even exposed to it in his boyhood. He was exposed to Methodists and circuit riders, and camp revival meetings. Those groups were very independent, they had no central authority, just the Bible.

 

[Catholic20064]

I thought of one more. You are not saved by faith alone, you have do do good works.

But why would Joseph Smith model his church on Catholicism? I don’t think he was really even exposed to it in his boyhood. He was exposed to Methodists and circuit riders, and camp revival meetings. Those groups were very independent, they had no central authority, just the Bible.

Who would lead Joseph Smith to invent a counterfeit church?

 

[ParkerD]

Catholic20064,
You realize of course that that is the question implied by the Jewish leaders about Christ and His authority. Go figure…

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
You realize of course that that is the question implied by the Jewish leaders about Christ and His authority. Go figure…

The question has to be asked and has to be answered. It’s pretty obvious that if Joseph Smith is setting up a counterfeit church that would be in the interest of someone who is trying to lead people away from the truth about Christ. Jesus answered the question of the Jewish leaders by rising from the dead. For a Christian that establishes Christ to be who he claimed to be. Christ made some very pointed remarks regarding his intention to be with his disciples forever rather than abandoning them to some premature apostasy. Christ also was very clear that remaining united with him relied on partaking of his body and his blood, available in the Catholic Church for almost 2000 years now. Unless there is some really compelling evidence for the claims of Joseph Smith it would be foolish to leave the church Christ established for the one Joseph Smith established 1800 years later. I do not see that compelling evidence which would lead me to regard Joseph’s church as the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[dianaiad]

“You guys believe that you will become Gods after you die! - blasphemy! You also believe that God was once a man! - heresy!”

You never answered this! This defines the meaning of a CULT! ha, ha, ha!

The word “cult,” according to the OED (that’s the Oxford English Dictionary, arguably the best and most comprehensive dictionary of English there is; it describes both the historical and current meanings applied by the people who actually use the words to those words. In short, if a given English word has a meaning agreed upon by a significant group of people, you will find that definition in this dictionary.)

So. “Cult,” then, means…
1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings
Ok, in that sense, Mormonism is a cult. So is Catholicism and every other religion on the planet.

*** 2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.***

           There again both Catholicism and Mormonism count as cults, and for precisely the same reason.

*** 3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.***

        That expands the definition of 'cult' to apply to Elvis lovers and stamp collectors...or in the case of Catholicism, perhaps, to those who single out one specific Saint for their devotions. Mormonism doesn't qualify here, really.

In the 'draft additions" to the definition (done in May of 2004) we have:

**** A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.***

      Further exploration of this definition, (which you might want to put Mormons in...) mentions that these groups are more like the very small closely held communal style religions that have one leader claiming to be divine, (or to have divine communication) that use illegal coercion techniques and who disobey the laws and customs of the culture around them. True, back in the 1800's that might be applicable to the Mormons, but then it was applicable to the early Christian church, too, as well as the Pauline version of the early church. It certainly does not apply at the moment, any more than it would apply to you.

*** * Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream. Hence: possessing a fashionable or exclusive cachet; spec. (of artistic figures or works) having a reputation or influence disproportionate to their limited public exposure or commercial success. Freq. in cult figure, cult status***

        this is the last definition that the OED has. It is this definition that covers the very weird phenomena of Napoleon Dynamite, American Idol, Jabba the Hut, Civil War reenactors and the whole Star Trek and Renaissance Faire thing.

Lessee…what other definitions of “cult” can we find…)h, never mind, just go here and see the whole thing treated very thoroughly.

This site is not an LDS site, by the way, so you can’t just dismiss it.

Mormons have no evidence of the “great apostasy”, there for they are just a formed cult that never wanted to abide by Jesus’s church so they made up their own… tch…

Grow up, Zundrah.

 

[dianaiad]

Another way we might consider the Mormon Church a cult is their refusal to tell non-members what happens to them in the temple. They claim they don’t want to do this because it is too sacred, but the reality is a person converting to Mormonism doesn’t know about the secret teachings of the church prior to joining. They often aren’t told about certain doctrines of the church until they are ready for the “meat”. They certainly don’t know about what will happen to them in the temple. They often don’t know anything about the King Follet teachings even though that sermon contains many important doctrines of the LDS Church. Hiding certain teachings is the sure sign of a cult. Prior to joining the Catholic Church everyone is aware of what they are going to sign up for.

By the way, the script of the Temple Ceremony is public record. The Congressional Record, as a matter of fact, and guess who put it there?

we did.

As well, Mormons go to some rather extensive classes about the Temple, what it’s purpose is, and what happens, before they go the first time.

Non members are told the purpose, and what happens, as well.

The ceremony itself is too sacred, yes; we will not discuss it with you. However, you may go just about anywhere to view the script yourself. It’s not a secret…but forcing US to discuss it with you simply because you are curious and want a MORMON to break his/her promise to expose our pearls to you? I think that would be a little like making you write down the transcription of your last confession and publishing it on Facebook.

Or more accurately, it would be like making your PRIEST do that. you, after all, didn’t promise to keep your confession confidential, but he did.

 

[dianaiad]

So, now you’re calling the catholic church a cult!? :tsktsk:
You are very funny! You should have been a comedian!

One of us should attempt some humor, and you don’t seem to be all that successful at it.

But yes, the Catholic church is a cult in the same way that the CoJCoLDS is. We are both religions and worship deity. (shrug)

You still haven’t defined “cult,” you know, except for your rather circular version of "Mormon beliefs are the definition of ‘cult.’ "

Which isn’t helpful.

 

[dianaiad]

From Catholic Answers:

I go by the Catechism, not the Catholic Encyclopedia.

There is never any percentage specified as a requirement although 10 percent is often suggested. Don’t tell me I don’t know about my religion – I think I know it better than you do.

Of course you do.

But you didn’t say anything different than I did.

 

[dianaiad]

As I told my brother (who converted to the LDS Church) years ago… We may both be wrong, but we cannot both be right. To my perspective it is quite clear that the two faiths are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled.

Peace,
Robert

There is a difference between reconciling doctrines (which this topic was NOT about) and being able to serve together in other ways. Catholics and Mormons have had a history of working together in many areas; charitable, political, moral and cultural issues.

In fact, it is only HERE that I have found quite this level of complete intolerance toward Mormons. I am left with the impression that some of you would rather allow a child to starve than accept Mormon aid to feed him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I thought of one more. You are not saved by faith alone, you have do do good works.

But why would Joseph Smith model his church on Catholicism? I don’t think he was really even exposed to it in his boyhood. He was exposed to Methodists and circuit riders, and camp revival meetings. Those groups were very independent, they had no central authority, just the Bible.

JS did not form his religion on his own. He had major help, from Sidney Rigdon (a man who had already been involved in starting new churches and leading congregations) and his cousin Oliver Cowdery. Many parts of the Mormon D&C are “revelations” given to these two other men. Much of the time spent creating the BoM was with these two men as well.

Also, your comparison to purgatory and Mormon spirit prison…they are not remotely close in nature. A person in purgatory has already been judged as going to heaven. Purgatory is where souls are purified before entering into the presence of GOD.

Mormon spirit prison is like an earthly life continued after death. People hanging around waiting to be judged with mormon missionaries teaching the dead. In order for anyone to believe this you have to believe that you would be oblivious to your own death. (Don’t you think if you knew you were dead, and God sent around missionaries, that your obvious answer would be “yes”?) Those waiting around in spirit prison are eventually judged, which judgement includes their acceptance of mormonism or not.

 

[zerinus]

JS did not form his religion on his own. He had major help, from Sidney Rigdon (a man who had already been involved in starting new churches and leading congregations) and his cousin Oliver Cowdery. Many parts of the Mormon D&C are “revelations” given to these two other men. Much of the time spent creating the BoM was with these two men as well.

Also, your comparison to purgatory and Mormon spirit prison…they are not remotely close in nature. A person in purgatory has already been judged as going to heaven. Purgatory is where souls are purified before entering into the presence of GOD.

Mormon spirit prison is like an earthly life continued after death. People hanging around waiting to be judged with mormon missionaries teaching the dead. In order for anyone to believe this you have to believe that you would be oblivious to your own death. (Don’t you think if you knew you were dead, and God sent around missionaries, that your obvious answer would be “yes”?) Those waiting around in spirit prison are eventually judged, which judgement includes their acceptance of mormonism or not.

None of what you have said here is true.

 

[dianaiad]

JS did not form his religion on his own. He had major help, from Sidney Rigdon (a man who had already been involved in starting new churches and leading congregations) and his cousin Oliver Cowdery. Many parts of the Mormon D&C are “revelations” given to these two other men. Much of the time spent creating the BoM was with these two men as well.

Also, your comparison to purgatory and Mormon spirit prison…they are not remotely close in nature. A person in purgatory has already been judged as going to heaven. Purgatory is where souls are purified before entering into the presence of GOD.

Mormon spirit prison is like an earthly life continued after death. People hanging around waiting to be judged with mormon missionaries teaching the dead. In order for anyone to believe this you have to believe that you would be oblivious to your own death. (Don’t you think if you knew you were dead, and God sent around missionaries, that your obvious answer would be “yes”?) Those waiting around in spirit prison are eventually judged, which judgement includes their acceptance of mormonism or not.

Would it be automatic and obvious? We don’t believe that one dies and is instantly inculcated with every bit of information that one missed on earth; you have what you had when you croaked, so to speak. So what would people expect? A devout Catholic who figured that there was an afterlife would have his expectations fulfilled. There is an afterlife.

Ag that point, he’s going to find out, (we believe) that there are a great many other people up there with him, who have very different beliefs–and those folks are going to be very surprised to see HIM.

it will be interesting.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

JS did not form his religion on his own. He had major help, from Sidney Rigdon (a man who had already been involved in starting new churches and leading congregations) and his cousin Oliver Cowdery. Many parts of the Mormon D&C are “revelations” given to these two other men. Much of the time spent creating the BoM was with these two men as well.

Also, your comparison to purgatory and Mormon spirit prison…they are not remotely close in nature. A person in purgatory has already been judged as going to heaven. Purgatory is where souls are purified before entering into the presence of GOD.

Mormon spirit prison is like an earthly life continued after death. People hanging around waiting to be judged with mormon missionaries teaching the dead. In order for anyone to believe this you have to believe that you would be oblivious to your own death. (Don’t you think if you knew you were dead, and God sent around missionaries, that your obvious answer would be “yes”?) Those waiting around in spirit prison are eventually judged, which judgement includes their acceptance of mormonism or not.

Even if Sidney gave Joseph all his ideas, wouldn’t there be more of a Protestant structure to his church? Also it seems the the Mormon Church gradually changed, as it grew in size and JS (or SR or OC) received more “revelations”, but in any case, I don’t see how they would have been influence by Catholicism, which wasn’t a very entrenched religion in the United States at that time.

I don’t really know where the idea of Catholic purgatory comes from. Actually a lot of the afterlife stuff is strange in both religions. People go to purgatory immediately after death, to be purged of sins, but no one can get into heaven or hell until the resurrection of everyone who ever died before, at the Second Coming. Then is when we are really and finally, judged, as I understand it. I think Mormons believe this too. The whole thing is terribly confusing. But it seems like the LDS religion allows for a certain cleansing too, before final judgement.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Would it be automatic and obvious? We don’t believe that one dies and is instantly inculcated with every bit of information that one missed on earth; you have what you had when you croaked, so to speak. So what would people expect?

I think that people would know they are dead, don’t you? Knowing you are dead, and someone comes around preaching one religion, don’t you think you would figure it out?