Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[MatthewCrossman]

No. He was found guilty of…I think that treason was the verdict…and crucified–a penalty that the Romans only imposed on the worst of criminals.

Paul spent a winter in prison…I wonder what those charges were?
Timothy, evidently, joined him in prison. I wonder what those charges were?

The point, of course, is that as soon as religion becomes involved, one must look at the “facts” of charges, convictions and sentences with a very different viewpoint.

Okay, fair point about the jailings etc…however, the moral character of Jesus or the apostles was hardly in question.

There is, however, a great deal of evidence to suggest that one Joseph Smith was less than an upright citizen…seer stone use, marrying other men’s wives etc. etc.

As an aside, I have always found it interesting that Joseph Smith kept using peer stones years after his supposed fantastic, divine revelation (1820) …and also became an official member of the Methodist church after that time (1828). This is somewhat strange, particularly given he claimed the Father and the Son told him all other churches were an abomination and he was twice warned to have nothing to do with them.

Guess it goes back to what you said about looking at the facts…

 

[RebeccaJ]

No. He was found guilty of…I think that treason was the verdict…and crucified–a penalty that the Romans only imposed on the worst of criminals.

Jesus was found guilty of nothing. Pontius Pilate refused to condemn Jesus, and made efforts to acquit Him. It was the Jewish crowd who released a criminal and condemned an innocent.

 

[zerinus]

Jesus was not found guilty in a court of law of using occultic seer stones to search for treasure.

Jesus was found guilty in a Kangaroo court; and so was Joseph Smith—many times—and acquitted.

 

[dianaiad]

Okay, fair point about the jailings etc…however, the moral character of Jesus or the apostles was hardly in question.

They were by those who condemned and killed them. You will understand, I hope, when we Mormons tell you that the moral character of Joseph Smith is ‘hardly in question.’ It’s ALL about who is looking, y’know.

There is, however, a great deal of evidence to suggest that one Joseph Smith was less than an upright citizen…seer stone use, marrying other men’s wives etc. etc.

As there was the same sort of evidence against the early Christians; that is, made up, trumped up, manufactured and misunderstood.

As an aside, I have always found it interesting that Joseph Smith kept using peer stones years after his supposed fantastic, divine revelation (1820) …and also became an official member of the Methodist church after that time (1828). This is somewhat strange, particularly given he claimed the Father and the Son told him all other churches were an abomination and he was twice warned to have nothing to do with them.

Guess it goes back to what you said about looking at the facts…

Indeed. Joseph was…14. His family joined the Methodists, so did he. What is surprising about that? He soon repented.

 

[dianaiad]

Jesus was found guilty of nothing. Pontius Pilate refused to condemn Jesus, and made efforts to acquit Him. It was the Jewish crowd who released a criminal and condemned an innocent.

Sorry, no sale. He was convicted and condemned by the Romans—the Jews could not, BY LAW, condemn any man to be crucified. You are talking about something that happened after His conviction.

 

[Catholic20064]

They were by those who condemned and killed them. You will understand, I hope, when we Mormons tell you that the moral character of Joseph Smith is ‘hardly in question.’ It’s ALL about who is looking, y’know.

As there was the same sort of evidence against the early Christians; that is, made up, trumped up, manufactured and misunderstood.

Indeed. Joseph was…14. His family joined the Methodists, so did he. What is surprising about that? He soon repented.

And Joseph never had a nasty filthy affair with Fanny Alger as Oliver Cowdery attested. And Joseph never married any 14 year old girls or other teenage girls or other men’s wives. It never happened because his integrity is beyond question. He never lied in public about only having one wife either.

He was quite a saint.

 

[MatthewCrossman]

And Joseph never had a nasty filthy affair with Fanny Alger as Oliver Cowdery attested. And Joseph never married any 14 year old girls or other teenage girls or other men’s wives. It never happened because his integrity is beyond question. He never lied in public about only having one wife either.

He was quite a saint.

Catholic 20064, surely that was not the case!

It must have been a big anti-Mormon conspiracy…(funny how said Oliver Cowdery, one of the ‘witnesses’ to the Book of Mormon, was soon excommunicated).

 

[MatthewCrossman]

Indeed. Joseph was…14

. His family joined the Methodists, so did he. What is surprising about that? He soon repented.

Hang on…wasn’t Joseph Smith born in 1805? :yup:

By my math, that would mean in 1828, when he joined the Methodist Church in Harmony, PA…having been expressly forbidden to do so by the Father and Son in a supposed fantastic visitation in 1820…he cannot possibly have been 14.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening MatthewCrossman. I hope you are doing well.

Hang on…wasn’t Joseph Smith born in 1805? :yup:

By my math, that would mean in 1828, when he joined the Methodist Church in Harmony, PA…having been expressly forbidden to do so by the Father and Son in a supposed fantastic visitation in 1820…he cannot possibly have been 14.

In truth, the point is moot because Joseph never joined the Methodist church. It is a fairly common assertion by critics, but it simply isn’t something that has been substantiated by historical data. However, like many of these critical assertions, there is some semblence of fact to them.

So, what is the connection between Joseph and the Methodist church? Consider the following quotes below:

“Joseph attended Methodist meetings with Emma, probably to placate her family. One of Emma’s uncles preached as a Methodist lay minister, and a brother-in-law was class leader in Harmony. Joseph was later said to have asked to be enrolled in the class. Joseph Lewis, a cousin of Emma’s, rose in wrath when he found Joseph’s name. Lewis objected to the inclusion of a ‘practicing necromance’ on the Methodist roll. He confronted Joseph and demanded repentance or removal. For some reason Joseph’s name remained on the roll for another six months, although there is no evidence of attendance” (Richard Bushman, “Rough Stone Rolling”).

It is further documented that, “Michael Morse—the Methodist class leader in Harmony, Pennsylvania…stated unambiguously that Joseph Smith ‘did not seek to become a full member’ of the Methodist church” (Matthew B. Brown, “Historical or Hysterical”).

So, now you know. And knowing is half the battle…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus was found guilty in a Kangaroo court; and so was Joseph Smith—many times—and acquitted.

Nothing but blasphemy, comparing your criminal Smith to the SON OF GOD.

 

[zerinus]

Nothing but blasphemy, comparing your criminal Smith to the SON OF GOD.

Joseph Smith was a great prophet of the Lord. What I said to GodIsGracious here is equally applicable to you. Nothing further need be said.

 

[MatthewCrossman]

Hey Finrock, thanks for the reply. I too hope you are well, and I appreciate your always charitable nature.

Good evening MatthewCrossman. I hope you are doing well.

In truth, the point is moot because Joseph never joined the Methodist church. It is a fairly common assertion by critics, but it simply isn’t something that has been substantiated by historical data. However, like many of these critical assertions, there is some semblence of fact to them.

So, what is the connection between Joseph and the Methodist church? Consider the following quotes below:

“Joseph attended Methodist meetings with Emma, probably to placate her family. One of Emma’s uncles preached as a Methodist lay minister, and a brother-in-law was class leader in Harmony. Joseph was later said to have asked to be enrolled in the class. Joseph Lewis, a cousin of Emma’s, rose in wrath when he found Joseph’s name. Lewis objected to the inclusion of a ‘practicing necromance’ on the Methodist roll. He confronted Joseph and demanded repentance or removal. For some reason Joseph’s name remained on the roll for another six months, although there is no evidence of attendance” (Richard Bushman, “Rough Stone Rolling”).

It is further documented that, “Michael Morse—the Methodist class leader in Harmony, Pennsylvania…stated unambiguously that Joseph Smith ‘did not seek to become a full member’ of the Methodist church” (Matthew B. Brown, “Historical or Hysterical”).

So, now you know. And knowing is half the battle…

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Okay, let’s say Joseph Smith merely tagged along to Methodist meetings to placate his first wife, I believe it nevertheless presents a problem for Mormons.

From Extracts From The History of Joseph Smith, The Prophet (which I believe is an addendum to the Pearl of Great Price and part of the Mormon canon):

''Than (sic) I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
''I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Now, if Joseph Smith was correct in saying that the Father and the Son appeared to him in such a manner in or about 1820, why would he have anything at all to do with the Methodist Church some eight years later, if by the very word of heaven all other sects were abominations? I certainly am no prophet, but if God himself appears before me and tells me to have nothing to do with other churches, I think I’m going to have nothing to do with other churches.

 

[ParkerD]

Hey Finrock, thanks for the reply. I too hope you are well, and I appreciate your always charitable nature.

Okay, let’s say Joseph Smith merely tagged along to Methodist meetings to placate his first wife, I believe it nevertheless presents a problem for Mormons.

From Extracts From The History of Joseph Smith, The Prophet (which I believe is an addendum to the Pearl of Great Price and part of the Mormon canon):

''Than (sic) I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
''I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Now, if Joseph Smith was correct in saying that the Father and the Son appeared to him in such a manner in or about 1820, why would he have anything at all to do with the Methodist Church some eight years later, if by the very word of heaven all other sects were abominations? I certainly am no prophet, but if God himself appears before me and tells me to have nothing to do with other churches, I think I’m going to have nothing to do with other churches.

Matthew Crossman,
Joseph Smith wasn’t disobeying God by attending a Sunday school class of the Methodist church. To attend is not to join a church. The “sects” weren’t abominations. Their “creeds” were abominations, because of denying the power of God and having only a form of godliness. He was not told to “have nothing to do with other churches.”

Have a good day.

 

[MatthewCrossman]

Hey RDP, good to hear from you. :tiphat:

Matthew Crossman,
Joseph Smith wasn’t disobeying God by attending a Sunday school class of the Methodist church. To attend is not to join a church. The “sects” weren’t abominations. Their “creeds” were abominations, because of denying the power of God and having only a form of godliness. He was not told to “have nothing to do with other churches.”

Have a good day.

But isn’t attending a Methodist meeting/class, whilst not the same as signing up, still having something to do with their creeds…which were apparently such an abomination? Abomination certainly is a very strong word, and if God did in fact make such a big deal about it to Mr Smith, why would he even set foot in the Methodist Church’s door?

The other time I recall God talking about an abomination was in relation to homosexuality…now if one was to go and regularly hang out at a gay club, but not actually hook up with a homosexual, wouldn’t it still be a questionable practice?

My point is, if Mr Smith had such a fantastic revelation that Christianity was lost and he was the prophet who was to ‘restore’ it, why did he wait 10 years to go about it…and in the meantime seek to attend another church? If he had all the answers, what was he seeking?

 

[ParkerD]

Hey RDP, good to hear from you. :tiphat:

But isn’t attending a Methodist meeting/class, whilst not the same as signing up, still having something to do with their creeds…which were apparently such an abomination? Abomination certainly is a very strong word, and if God did in fact make such a big deal about it to Mr Smith, why would he even set foot in the Methodist Church’s door?
…
My point is, if Mr Smith had such a fantastic revelation that Christianity was lost and he was the prophet who was to ‘restore’ it, why did he wait 10 years to go about it…and in the meantime seek to attend another church? If he had all the answers, what was he seeking?

Matthew Crossman,
Here is a text from the Old Testament, Ezekiel 20, that uses the word “abomination”:

4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:
5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the Lord your God;
6 In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:
7 Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt:

The word “abominations” has to do with not hearkening to God, but instead following other practices, including those of the Egyptians.

As to Joseph Smith attending a Methodist Sunday school, you may think God could reveal all that Joseph needed to know without him needing to ask questions, but when Christ said “ask, and ye shall receive,” He really meant it, and if one doesn’t ask, one doesn’t receive specific answers. It is logical to me that Joseph Smith was trying to get understanding about the Bible and its teachings during the years following 1820, and that God expected him to do that, and to ask questions for guidance. He could just as well listen to a teacher in a Sunday school class (or have a discussion with the teacher) and thus explore Biblical teachings and find what “sounded right” or “felt right” and then ask in prayer about it, as to go off studying by himself and ask the questions. It makes complete sense to me that he could listen to others, learn from their perspective, and seek inspiration to understand true doctrine.

 

[tbcrawford]

May I just ask a very simple question to all mormons on this thread and indeed on CAF?

Why are you even on this catholic site in the first place? If it is to befirend catholics & learn a little about our faith of … The One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus and the Apostles thats fine. Why are you telling us about your beliefs?If we want to know anything about LDS we can look on your websites can we not?
I fear you are here for fraudulent reasons to try to convert us you are on a mission literally.

I do think its nice to be friends and i love all my brothers & sisters whatever religion or not they are.We as catholics already know we are following Gods directions.We evangelise and encourage people to learn what God wants them to do.I am very sorry if people have been rude to you on this site or any other catholic forum but im sure if i were to start evangelising on your mormon.org site i would meet the same attitude.
I personally feel you are here on a mission as i have said, and that is unfair of you as i dont want to be preached to by mormons.I think you are really sincere good people in your own right just misguided & mislead in your beliefs.I wish you all well God be with you.

 

[MatthewCrossman]

Parker and LDS friends:

The simple fact is the issue of Joseph Smith’s later involvement with the Methodist Church is but one of dozens of issues surrounding him which have caused countless people, including many smarter than myself, to doubt the truthfulness of his message.

From his involvement with seer stones to his marrying of other men’s wives; plagiarism of contemporary works and the KJV; and also prophecies which did not come true…from any objective viewpoint the man wasn’t the holy and righteous prophet he is held up to be.

Here is another quote from the OT, from Deuteronomy 18:20-22: *’'How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken…" *

From Prophet Smith in Doctrines and Covenants, section 84, regarding a ‘‘New Jerusalem’’ and new temple to be built in Independence, MI, we have: ‘’…which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away."

Has the generation of 1832 passed away? Has this ‘‘New Jerusalem’’ and temple been built?

Personally, when it comes to Mr Smith, the one quote which says it all indeed comes from his very own mouth in History of the Church, vol. 6: ’'Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.’'

This prophet even dared to say his work exceeded that of the Lord’s.

In Christ and in truth,
Matthew.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon MatthewCrossman.

Hey Finrock, thanks for the reply. I too hope you are well, and I appreciate your always charitable nature.

You’re welcome, and thank you.

Now, if Joseph Smith was correct in saying that the Father and the Son appeared to him in such a manner in or about 1820, why would he have anything at all to do with the Methodist Church some eight years later, if by the very word of heaven all other sects were abominations? I certainly am no prophet, but if God himself appears before me and tells me to have nothing to do with other churches, I think I’m going to have nothing to do with other churches.

I appreciate your observations. Perhaps I can put things in context.

There is, I think, a common misunderstanding of what Joseph understood after the first vision. I think this misunderstanding also extends to members of the Church. A serious study of Joseph Smith’s history reveals what I believe is an important point that needs to be understood to fully appreciate the events leading up to the translating of the Book of Mormon and the establishing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The account that you quoted was written several years after the fact and it reflects a matured understanding of the events leading up to the restoration. But, when looking at the history of Joseph Smith, the picture we see is that Joseph didn’t initially fully comprehend what his calling and vision was all about. I don’t think Joseph understood at the age of around 14 or 15 years old that he had been called to be a prophet and that his vision wasn’t just a private event, but it was the beginning of a new dispensation. Because, although Joseph went to pray to know which of all the churches were true, he was also praying to be forgiven for his sins. So, his initial reaction to the first vision was that this was something that just applied to him. He had been forgiven of his sins and he received an answer to his questions.

The picture I get when I look at the historical data surrounding Joseph Smith’s life, is that he was being taught and prepared, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” It was a gradual understanding that grew from the time he had his first vision and really until his last days on this earth. So, in the years following the first vision, Joseph went through several preparatory like trials, to make sure his heart was pure and that his desires were inline with what God wanted. This explains why it was a fews years after Joseph Smith had his heavenly vision and visitation by the angel Moroni, that he was actually able to obtain the Golden Plates. His first exposure to the golden plates were plagued by desires to obtain riches. Joseph Smith, after all, came from a poor family and seeing the plates he thought perhaps to be able to make a profit from them. This further indicates that Joseph, in his early years, wasn’t thinking of himself as a prophet or such. But, the instructions from on high continued for Joseph and little by little, you begin to see in the historical accounts where Joseph starts to understand that his experiences are more than just about himself or his family, but they are something much more. So, in the time after the First Vision and before Joseph fully understands his calling and purpose, there is a time of preparation and purification, really, that takes place.

I think also, the fact that Joseph was willing to attend other religious meetings, is testament to the fact that he didn’t feel that all other religions were deprived of all truth. He had no prejudice against the other sects, regardless of what he had experienced. He recognized the goodness and truth that existed in all Christian denominations. Rather than this being a blight against him, I see this as another indicator that Joseph didn’t understand his experience to mean that all of Christianity was in a corrupt or abominable state, but rather that although containing much truth, they weren’t complete.

Well, I hope my post has been helpful in perhaps providing some context and perspective on the early events of Joseph’s life.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[zerinus]

May I just ask a very simple question to all mormons on this thread and indeed on CAF?

Why are you even on this catholic site in the first place? If it is to befirend catholics & learn a little about our faith of … The One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus and the Apostles thats fine. Why are you telling us about your beliefs?If we want to know anything about LDS we can look on your websites can we not?
I fear you are here for fraudulent reasons to try to convert us you are on a mission literally.

I do think its nice to be friends and i love all my brothers & sisters whatever religion or not they are.We as catholics already know we are following Gods directions.We evangelise and encourage people to learn what God wants them to do.I am very sorry if people have been rude to you on this site or any other catholic forum but im sure if i were to start evangelising on your mormon.org site i would meet the same attitude.
I personally feel you are here on a mission as i have said, and that is unfair of you as i dont want to be preached to by mormons.I think you are really sincere good people in your own right just misguided & mislead in your beliefs.I wish you all well God be with you.

I am sorry that you feel so vulnrable talking to Mormons. If you feel that vulnerable, then perhaps you are the one who ought to be staying away from the forums.

 

[Catholic20064]

I am sorry that you feel so vulnrable talking to Mormons. If you feel that vulnerable, then perhaps you are the one who ought to be staying away from the forums.

One of the nice things about this forum is there are probably wavering Mormons who are looking at this discussion and finding out a lot of new information. They may even eventually become Catholic. They may only be lurkers, but by extending these discussions they are likely strengthened in their resolve to leave Mormonism. I know I went to several sites where various Christians were presenting the case against Mormonism. It was easy for me to see the non-Mormons and former Mormons had a better understanding of the issues than the Mormons trying to defend the LDS Church. When I went to the history books I almost always found the non-LDS were more accurate in their evaluation than the Mormons. Often I could tell the Mormons were trying to hide the problems even by lying about Mormon belief in Heavenly Mother, multiple Gods, etc.