Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[ParkerD]

I appreciate your polite response. However, you are leaving out the most important detail: Brigham Young believed Adam was the Father. He preached that for 30 years.

Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young, April 9, 1852, (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1) (For Forum Members who do not have access to the LDS Journal of Discourses, it is online at journalofdiscourses.org/volume-01/):

On June 8th, 1873, 21 years later, Young restated his belief that Adam is god, claiming it was revealed to him by God; and that he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith.

For the LDS Forum Members who claim these quotes are taken out of context–this is yet another opportunity for you to explain the quotes in “context.”

When I pray to God the Father, in the name of Christ the Son, I am not praying to Adam.

Christian 55,
I also appreciate your politeness above. When I pray, I assure you I am not praying to Adam. I agree that some of BY’s language seems to have been confusing if he was quoted and transcribed entirely verbatim.

If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

BY chose to emphasize the position Adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a God. I personally think “Archangel” is the more useful description, but I don’t intend to bicker with BY in the hereafter over his use of a different term than I would use.

One of the things lost in this discussion is that Adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world. If only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy! Imagine how Adam and Eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

If we could part the veil backwards in time to the War in Heaven time period, we would see the role Michael played as the advocate for the Father’s plan, along with Christ who was going to play the central role as the Savior and Redeemer. Michael was the Archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there. Finally, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against God bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and Christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.

 

[mjf001]

Christian 55,
I also appreciate your politeness above. When I pray, I assure you I am not praying to Adam. I agree that some of BY’s language seems to have been confusing if he was quoted and transcribed entirely verbatim.

If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

BY chose to emphasize the position Adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a God. I personally think “Archangel” is the more useful description, but I don’t intend to bicker with BY in the hereafter over his use of a different term than I would use.

One of the things lost in this discussion is that Adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world. If only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy! Imagine how Adam and Eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

If we could part the veil backwards in time to the War in Heaven time period, we would see the role Michael played as the advocate for the Father’s plan, along with Christ who was going to play the central role as the Savior and Redeemer. Michael was the Archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there. Finally, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against God bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and Christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.

Here’s an alternative explanation of who St. Michael is:
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm

 

[pipper]

Christian 55,
I also appreciate your politeness above. When I pray, I assure you I am not praying to Adam. I agree that some of BY’s language seems to have been confusing if he was quoted and transcribed entirely verbatim.

If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

BY chose to emphasize the position Adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a God. I personally think “Archangel” is the more useful description, but I don’t intend to bicker with BY in the hereafter over his use of a different term than I would use.

One of the things lost in this discussion is that Adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world. If only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy! Imagine how Adam and Eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

If we could part the veil backwards in time to the War in Heaven time period, we would see the role Michael played as the advocate for the Father’s plan, along with Christ who was going to play the central role as the Savior and Redeemer. Michael was the Archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there. Finally, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against God bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and Christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.

HUHH? Parker where are you coming up with this stuff? I’ts certainly not anywhere in the CHRISTIAN scriptures, or in Holy Tradition, and it is nothing remotely like what orthodox Christians beleive.

I don’t know to whom you are reffering when you say “heavenly father” but it cannot be God the Father first person of the Holy and Undivided Trinity. You do not even beleive in the Holy Trinity but in (at least) three seperate "gods:.

 

[ParkerD]

HUHH? Parker where are you coming up with this stuff? I’ts certainly not anywhere in the CHRISTIAN scriptures, or in Holy Tradition, and it is nothing remotely like what orthodox Christians beleive.

I don’t know to whom you are reffering when you say “heavenly father” but it cannot be God the Father first person of the Holy and Undivided Trinity. You do not even beleive in the Holy Trinity but in three separate "gods:.

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

 

[pipper]

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

I certianly would like to read in the acknowleged CHRISTIAN and Jewish scriptures about St. Micheal the archangel being a “god”. About the “pre-existence” and the “pre-mortal life we all had”. One God in three persons the Holy and undivided Trinity, just does not equate to the mormon idea of (at least) three seperate “gods”, sorry. You cannot bring yourself to utter or type the word “Trinity”, becuase like all Mormons you beleive in three seperate “gods” who are most certianly divided.

I would like for you too provide Christian scriptures for your ideas. Quotes in full verses and not the Mormon practice of providing snippets of verses, and please use contemporary English and not the incomprehensible King James gibberish that can’t be understood by anyone.

T.R.I.N.I.T.Y. I know you can say the word, who knows what a “godhead” is?

 

[ricko]

HUHH? Parker where are you coming up with this stuff? I’ts certainly not anywhere in the CHRISTIAN scriptures, or in Holy Tradition, and it is nothing remotely like what orthodox Christians beleive.

I don’t know to whom you are reffering when you say “heavenly father” but it cannot be God the Father first person of the Holy and Undivided Trinity. You do not even beleive in the Holy Trinity but in (at least) three seperate "gods:.

If anyone had any lingering doubts about whether Mormons were not Christians, I believe Parkers’ statement has removed any of those doubts.

 

[mjf001]

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

Here is an article on Satan:
newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

 

[mjf001]

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

One other point. Pre-mortal existence is one of the uniquely LDS doctrines, so unless you can give me a reason to think otherwise, I’m going to put those in the same category I keep the other uniquely LDS doctrines. No offense, but as I keep saying, I’m only interested in the truth.

 

[ParkerD]

I certianly would like to read in the acknowleged CHRISTIAN and Jewish scriptures about St. Micheal the archangel being a “god”. About the “pre-existence” and the “pre-mortal life we all had”. One God in three persons the Holy and undivided Trinity, just does not equate to the mormon idea of (at least) three seperate “gods”, sorry. You cannot bring yourself to utter or type the word “Trinity”, becuase like all Mormons you beleive in three seperate “gods” who are most certianly divided.

I would like for you too provide Christian scriptures for your ideas. Quotes in full verses and not the Mormon practice of providing snippets of verses, and please use contemporary English and not the incomprehensible King James gibberish that can’t be understood by anyone.

T.R.I.N.I.T.Y. I know you can say the word, who knows what a “godhead” is?

Pipper,
I can bring myself to type the word “Trinity,” but I have never understood the concept from anyone who has explained it to me. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

As far as the full verses, since you don’t want the King James I am going to need to take some time reading different translations of the applicable verses, to see if any provide the comparable concepts as the King James translation. I’ll get to it when I have the time–I just don’t have that kind of time right now. Until then, have a good Sunday.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Pipper,
I can bring myself to type the word “Trinity,” but I have never understood the concept from anyone who has explained it to me. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

Pray for understanding.

 

[Christian55]

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

I certianly would like to read in the acknowleged CHRISTIAN and Jewish scriptures about St. Micheal the archangel being a “god”. About the “pre-existence” and the “pre-mortal life we all had”. One God in three persons the Holy and undivided Trinity, just does not equate to the mormon idea of (at least) three seperate “gods”, sorry. You cannot bring yourself to utter or type the word “Trinity”, becuase like all Mormons you beleive in three seperate “gods” who are most certianly divided.

I would like for you too provide Christian scriptures for your ideas. Quotes in full verses and not the Mormon practice of providing snippets of verses, and please use contemporary English and not the incomprehensible King James gibberish that can’t be understood by anyone.

T.R.I.N.I.T.Y. I know you can say the word, who knows what a “godhead” is?

If anyone had any lingering doubts about whether Mormons were not Christians, I believe Parkers’ statement has removed any of those doubts.

One other point. Pre-mortal existence is one of the uniquely LDS doctrines, so unless you can give me a reason to think otherwise, I’m going to put those in the same category I keep the other uniquely LDS doctrines. No offense, but as I keep saying, I’m only interested in the truth.

Pipper,
I can bring myself to type the word “Trinity,” but I have never understood the concept from anyone who has explained it to me. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

As far as the full verses, since you don’t want the King James I am going to need to take some time reading different translations of the applicable verses, to see if any provide the comparable concepts as the King James translation. I’ll get to it when I have the time–I just don’t have that kind of time right now. Until then, have a good Sunday.

ParkerD:
I, too, would like the Biblical Scriptures to back up your beliefs. You can find almost any version of the Bible online. The New Jerusalem Bible is online at Link: catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=45&bible_chapter=12#10.

Other Versions, including the KJV, are online at Link: biblegateway.com/passage/

 

[zerinus]

As a Catholic, I pray to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As they are all God, this is right and good.

As a Mormon, I follow the advice of the Lord how to pray:

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:*** Our Father which art in heaven,*** Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

John 15:

16 . . . whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 16:

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

What is your problem with that?

 

[zerinus]

Here’s an alternative explanation of who St. Michael is:
newadvent.org/cathen/10275b.htm

Okay; and that proves what exactly?

 

[zerinus]

One other point. Pre-mortal existence is one of the uniquely LDS doctrines, so unless you can give me a reason to think otherwise, I’m going to put those in the same category I keep the other uniquely LDS doctrines. No offense, but as I keep saying, I’m only interested in the truth.

Origen, considered the greatest of the early Christian theologians, as well as many other theologians of his day, believed in the preexistence.

 

[Christian55]

Christian 55,
I also appreciate your politeness above. When I pray, I assure you I am not praying to Adam. I agree that some of BY’s language seems to have been confusing if he was quoted and transcribed entirely verbatim.

If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

BY chose to emphasize the position Adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a God. I personally think “Archangel” is the more useful description, but I don’t intend to bicker with BY in the hereafter over his use of a different term than I would use.

One of the things lost in this discussion is that Adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world. If only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy! Imagine how Adam and Eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

If we could part the veil backwards in time to the War in Heaven time period, we would see the role Michael played as the advocate for the Father’s plan, along with Christ who was going to play the central role as the Savior and Redeemer. Michael was the Archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there. Finally, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against God bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and Christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.

HUHH? Parker where are you coming up with this stuff? I’ts certainly not anywhere in the CHRISTIAN scriptures, or in Holy Tradition, and it is nothing remotely like what orthodox Christians beleive.

I don’t know to whom you are reffering when you say “heavenly father” but it cannot be God the Father first person of the Holy and Undivided Trinity. You do not even beleive in the Holy Trinity but in (at least) three seperate "gods:.

Pipper,
Mormonism is certainly different than orthodox Christianity. If you would like Biblical scriptures about the war in heaven, about Michael the Archangel, about Lucifer being cast out of heaven or about the pre-mortal life we all had, then you could let me know if you would like. I am certainly referring to God the Father when I pray to Heavenly Father, a separate person from God the Son and from the Holy Ghost. Separate persons, same truth-upholding and truth-granting powers in the Universe, each omnipotent, One Godhead, their united purpose to bring us back into their presence as redeemed and saved souls.

We are all still waiting on Biblical Scriptures from ParkerD.
**
Zerinus**, you are welcome to jump in and help him out. At least you and ParkerD are staying with the discussion. Finrock, has once again, dropped out of the discussion.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:
I, too, would like the Biblical Scriptures to back up your beliefs. You can find almost any version of the Bible online. The New Jerusalem Bible is online at Link: catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=45&bible_chapter=12#10.

Other Versions, including the KJV, are online at Link: biblegateway.com/passage/

Christian55,
I have been busy as I had stated I was going to be. Here are the scriptural passages that are applicable, in separate posts:

Daniel 12:1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.
2 'Of those who are sleeping in the Land of Dust, many will awaken, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
3 Those who are wise will shine as brightly as the expanse of the heavens, and those who have instructed many in uprightness, as bright as stars for all eternity.
4 ‘But you, Daniel, must keep these words secret and keep the book sealed until the time of the End. Many will roam about, this way and that, and wickedness will continue to increase.’
5 I, Daniel, then looked and saw two other people standing, one on the near bank of the river, the other on the far.
6 One of them said to the man dressed in linen who was standing further up the stream, ‘How long until these wonders take place?’
7 I heard the man speak who was dressed in linen, standing further up the stream: he raised his right hand and his left to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever, ‘A time and two times, and half a time; and all these things will come true, once the crushing of the holy people’s power is over.’
8 I listened but did not understand. I then said, ‘My lord, what is to be the outcome?’
9 ‘Go, Daniel,’ he said. 'These words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the End.
10 Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

Please note what verse 10 says, which is a sure Biblical promise.

Who is this “Prince Michael” the defender of the people? In Revelation 12 one finds the same expression of “a time, and times, and half a time.” (v. 14) One also finds Michael talked about in verse 7.

4 Its tail swept a third of the stars from the sky and hurled them to the ground, and the dragon stopped in front of the woman as she was at the point of giving birth, so that it could eat the child as soon as it was born.
5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne,
6 while the woman escaped into the desert, where God had prepared a place for her to be looked after for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels,
8 but they were defeated and driven out of heaven.
9 The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had led all the world astray, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.
10 Then I heard a voice shout from heaven, ‘Salvation and power and empire for ever have been won by our God, and all authority for his Christ, now that the accuser, who accused our brothers day and night before our God, has been brought down.
11 They have triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word to which they bore witness, because even in the face of death they did not cling to life.
12 So let the heavens rejoice and all who live there; but for you, earth and sea, disaster is coming – because the devil has gone down to you in a rage, knowing that he has little time left.’
13 As soon as the dragon found himself hurled down to the earth, he sprang in pursuit of the woman, the mother of the male child,
14 but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.
15 So the serpent vomited water from his mouth, like a river, after the woman, to sweep her away in the current,
16 but the earth came to her rescue; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river spewed from the dragon’s mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged with the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, who obey God’s commandments and have in themselves the witness of Jesus.

One reads in Jude about Michael the archangel:
9 Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’

Note that the name Michael means one “who is like God”.

The link between Michael and the “Ancient of days” can be inferred from Daniel 7 in the descriptive language used. It is not stated directly. It is hidden as was promised in Daniel 12:10. Only the wise will understand.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:
I, too, would like the Biblical Scriptures to back up your beliefs. You can find almost any version of the Bible online. The New Jerusalem Bible is online at Link: catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=45&bible_chapter=12#10.

Other Versions, including the KJV, are online at Link: biblegateway.com/passage/

Christian55,
Continuing:
Here are verses from Daniel 7:
9 While I was watching, thrones were set in place and one most venerable took his seat. His robe was white as snow, the hair of his head as pure as wool. His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A stream of fire poured out, issuing from his presence. A thousand thousand waited on him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was in session and the books lay open.
11 'I went on watching: then, because of the noise made by the boastings of the horn, as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames.
12 The other beasts were deprived of their empire, but received a lease of life for a season and a time.
13 I was gazing into the visions of the night, when I saw, coming on the clouds of heaven, as it were a son of man. He came to the One most venerable and was led into his presence.
14 On him was conferred rule, honour and kingship, and all peoples, nations and languages became his servants. His rule is an everlasting rule which will never pass away, and his kingship will never come to an end.
15 'I, Daniel, was deeply disturbed and the visions that passed through my head alarmed me.
16 So I approached one of those who were standing by and asked him about all this. And in reply he revealed to me what these things meant.
17 “These four great beasts are four kings who will rise up from the earth.
18 Those who receive royal power are the holy ones of the Most High, and kingship will be theirs for ever, for ever and ever.”
19 Then I asked about the fourth beast, different from all the rest, very terrifying, with iron teeth and bronze claws; it ate its victims, crushed them, and trampled their remains underfoot;
20 and about the ten horns on its head – and why the other horn sprouted and the three original horns fell, and why this horn had eyes and a mouth full of boasting, and why it looked more impressive than its fellows.
21 This was the horn I had watched making war on the holy ones and proving the stronger,
22 until the coming of the One most venerable who gave judgement in favour of the holy ones of the Most High, when the time came for the holy ones to assume kingship.
23 This is what he said: “The fourth beast is to be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all other kingdoms. It will devour the whole world, trample it underfoot and crush it.
24 As for the ten horns: from this kingdom will rise ten kings, and another after them; this one will be different from the previous ones and will bring down three kings;
25 he will insult the Most High, and torment the holy ones of the Most High. He will plan to alter the seasons and the Law, and the Saints will be handed over to him for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court will sit, and he will be stripped of his royal authority which will be finally destroyed and reduced to nothing.
27 And kingship and rule and the splendours of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose royal power is an eternal power, whom every empire will serve and obey.”

The words “Ancient of days” have been changed in the version you asked me to quote from, to “one most Venerable”. I see no reason to arm wrestle over the difference in meaning. “Ancient of days” has much deeper meaning in the context, but as noted in Daniel 12, the meaning would be hidden, such that only “the wise shall understand.”

The meaning of Jude 6 has also been changed significantly in the translation you asked to be used. Jude 6 talks about the “angels who kept not their first estate.” The first estate was the pre-mortal life, where occurred the war in Heaven talked about in Revelation 12:7.

Luke 3:33-38 records the following:
…son of Judah,
34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor,
35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah,
36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech,
37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan,
38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

I have presented the verses from the Bible that are related to BY’s beliefs about Adam, Michael, the Ancient of days, and his holding of priesthood keys that will become pertinent during the end of times, when Christ will reign as promised. Also about the war in heaven, the casting down of Satan or Lucifer (see also Isaiah 14:12-16), and the triumphant victory of the righteous during the end times and “forever and ever.”

 

[pipper]

Pipper,
I can bring myself to type the word “Trinity,” but I have never understood the concept from anyone who has explained it to me. It absolutely doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry.

As far as the full verses, since you don’t want the King James I am going to need to take some time reading different translations of the applicable verses, to see if any provide the comparable concepts as the King James translation. I’ll get to it when I have the time–I just don’t have that kind of time right now. Until then, have a good Sunday.

I can never underestand the Mormon concept of at least three different “gods”,or humans working their way up to being “gods”, or “gods” with human bodies.

I can’t even understand how you can call yourself “Christian” or even Jewish or Muslim, since all those religions are monotheistic, while you are polytheistic or using your word “henotheistic”.

Honestly I have trouble telling the difference between mormons and atheists, what is the REAL difference between no God, and human 'gods" that evolve into “godhood”.

The reason I ask for whole verses instead of partial verses, is because the verselets especally in King James gibberish are very easily misunderstood, maybe that is the reason for Mormons using them? You want misunderstanding?

 

[pipper]

As a Mormon, I follow the advice of the Lord how to pray:

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:*** Our Father which art in heaven,*** Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

John 15:

16 . . . whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 16:

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

What is your problem with that?

My problem with that is that everyword of it is in King James gibbberish instead of English.

You guys used to criticise us for using Latin in our worship, but I can understand Latin better than your King James so called “English”.

 

[pipper]

Christian55,
I have been busy as I had stated I was going to be. Here are the scriptural passages that are applicable, in separate posts:

Daniel 12:1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.
2 'Of those who are sleeping in the Land of Dust, many will awaken, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
3 Those who are wise will shine as brightly as the expanse of the heavens, and those who have instructed many in uprightness, as bright as stars for all eternity.
4 ‘But you, Daniel, must keep these words secret and keep the book sealed until the time of the End. Many will roam about, this way and that, and wickedness will continue to increase.’
5 I, Daniel, then looked and saw two other people standing, one on the near bank of the river, the other on the far.
6 One of them said to the man dressed in linen who was standing further up the stream, ‘How long until these wonders take place?’
7 I heard the man speak who was dressed in linen, standing further up the stream: he raised his right hand and his left to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever, ‘A time and two times, and half a time; and all these things will come true, once the crushing of the holy people’s power is over.’
8 I listened but did not understand. I then said, ‘My lord, what is to be the outcome?’
9 ‘Go, Daniel,’ he said. 'These words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the End.
10 Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

Please note what verse 10 says, which is a sure Biblical promise.

Who is this “Prince Michael” the defender of the people? In Revelation 12 one finds the same expression of “a time, and times, and half a time.” (v. 14) One also finds Michael talked about in verse 7.

4 Its tail swept a third of the stars from the sky and hurled them to the ground, and the dragon stopped in front of the woman as she was at the point of giving birth, so that it could eat the child as soon as it was born.
5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne,
6 while the woman escaped into the desert, where God had prepared a place for her to be looked after for twelve hundred and sixty days.
7 And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels,
8 but they were defeated and driven out of heaven.
9 The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan, who had led all the world astray, was hurled down to the earth and his angels were hurled down with him.
10 Then I heard a voice shout from heaven, ‘Salvation and power and empire for ever have been won by our God, and all authority for his Christ, now that the accuser, who accused our brothers day and night before our God, has been brought down.
11 They have triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word to which they bore witness, because even in the face of death they did not cling to life.
12 So let the heavens rejoice and all who live there; but for you, earth and sea, disaster is coming – because the devil has gone down to you in a rage, knowing that he has little time left.’
13 As soon as the dragon found himself hurled down to the earth, he sprang in pursuit of the woman, the mother of the male child,
14 but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.
15 So the serpent vomited water from his mouth, like a river, after the woman, to sweep her away in the current,
16 but the earth came to her rescue; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river spewed from the dragon’s mouth.
17 Then the dragon was enraged with the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, who obey God’s commandments and have in themselves the witness of Jesus.

One reads in Jude about Michael the archangel:
9 Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’

Note that the name Michael means one “who is like God”.

The link between Michael and the “Ancient of days” can be inferred from Daniel 7 in the descriptive language used. It is not stated directly. It is hidden as was promised in Daniel 12:10. Only the wise will understand.

Both Daniel and the book of Revelation are examples of apochalyptic literature, they were neither written litteraly, nor nor were they intended to be read or interpreted literally as you have done here.

You have still to give examples of the so called Pre existence from whole verses of the Christian and Hebrew bible in easily understood english.

There is a very large difffence in being like God, and being one of the many “gods” in the mormon pantheon.