Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[ParkerD]

Both Daniel and the book of Revelation are examples of apochalyptic literature, they were neither written litteraly, nor nor were they intended to be read or interpreted literally as you have done here.

You have still to give examples of the so called Pre existence from whole verses of the Christian and Hebrew bible in easily understood english.

There is a very large difference in being like God, and being one of the many “gods” in the Mormon pantheon.

Pipper,
All these things are hidden from your understanding, as I noted that Daniel was told in his vision. I cannot make you understand. No one can. I can’t help you get over your inability to understand the King James Bible, either. Sorry. You’ll be fine with what you have, if you live the gospel as best you know how. Best wishes in that.

 

[mjf001]

Okay; and that proves what exactly?

Did you read it?

 

[mjf001]

Origen, considered the greatest of the early Christian theologians, as well as many other theologians of his day, believed in the preexistence.

Please post a link to the writing in which Origen states there was a premortal existence.

 

[pipper]

Pipper,
All these things are hidden from your understanding, as I noted that Daniel was told in his vision. I cannot make you understand. No one can. I can’t help you get over your inability to understand the King James Bible, either. Sorry. You’ll be fine with what you have, if you live the gospel as best you know how. Best wishes in that.

How dare you, there is nothing “hidden” that my friend is gnosticism a heresy rejected way over a millenium ago by orthodox Christianity, but it probably plays well in Mormonism.

I could understand if you quoted and interpretted the books of Daniel and Revelation in the way they were written and intended to be read by the authors, who were anything but gnostics.

And why should I even try and understand King James “english”, yea and verily the English languague has changed and grown in the last six centuries, forsooth. I cans’t understandith it not. What is the point of puzzling out what the obsolete words and phrases say, it is vitally important to understand what the words mean.

But what really get’s my goat is the way you talk down to me as if I need your gnosticism to understand Christianity where Christianity has always rejected gnosticism.

Need I remind you it is not your place to talk down to orthodox Christians in a place that is owned and run by orthodox Christians (Catholics), it is not your place to proseletyze real Catholic Christians to your unorthodox religion, If anything we Catholics should be talking down to you.

 

[pipper]

Please post a link to the writing in which Origen states there was a premortal existence.

This should be very interesting, another mormon finnFire has already tried through very selective quotes of the Fathers that theosis and mormon “deification” are exactly the same.

 

[mjf001]

This should be very interesting, another mormon finnFire has already tried through very selective quotes of the Fathers that theosis and mormon “deification” are exactly the same.

I agree. Hopefully, he won’t try a proof text, and supply a link to the whole text like I requested.

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t think we should be talking down to anyone. I’d rather talk straight to them.

I don’t think Mormons and Catholics get along fine. In fact, I don’t think Mormons get along with any Christian church, as they reject the Holy Trinity, pervert the Bible and the Christian message, and steer people into heresy with their strange and damning doctrines and falsehoods.

Mormonism is not Christian. It is heresy and lies trying to ride its way into favor with Christians by appropriating genuine Christian figures and vocabulary and twisting them to suit its own sick desires. It is no different in that respect from Islam or any other batch of glorified heresies cooked up since Our Lord warned us that people would come after Him attempting to persuade people away from the true path of GOD, which is in the Holy and Apostolic Churches that Mormonism slanders with fantasies like the “Great Apostasy”. What’s to get along with in all this nonsense?

 

[ParkerD]

DZHeremi,
Sorry to have been perceived as “talking down to.”
Christ is my Judge. You are not. I love the Bible, and could outdo you in a verbatim quote contest from memory, easily. (I would have to use the King James Version, since that is what I know.) Mormonism holds the Bible to be far more literal than other faiths. It certainly does not agree with orthodox Christianity in many doctrinal areas, and that would be why.

Both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, in the verses I already posted (from the Catholic translation) talked about the withdrawal of the full and pure gospel from the earth that occurred before the Restoration. It is there to be found and understood.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And why should I even try and understand King James “english”, yea and verily the English languague has changed and grown in the last six centuries, forsooth. I cans’t understandith it not. What is the point of puzzling out what the obsolete words and phrases say, it is vitally important to understand what the words mean.

Pipper, Mormons believe Elizabethan era (Early Middle) English is the “language of prayer”. They think thee, thou and thy is a formal conjugation of ‘you’. Ironically, thou, thee, thy, thine, is the informal, and ye, you, your, yours is is the formal. English speaking Mormons only use the KJV and a Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible.

 

[pipper]

DZHeremi,
Sorry to have been perceived as “talking down to.”
Christ is my Judge. You are not. I love the Bible, and could outdo you in a verbatim quote contest from memory, easily. (I would have to use the King James Version, since that is what I know.) Mormonism holds the Bible to be far more literal than other faiths. It certainly does not agree with orthodox Christianity in many doctrinal areas, and that would be why.

Both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, in the verses I already posted (from the Catholic translation) talked about the withdrawal of the full and pure gospel from the earth that occurred before the Restoration. It is there to be found and understood.

Appology accepted, and let me add that I got a little carried away myself.

It is all well and good to interpret the Bible litteraly, but only when the original authors meant it to be literal.

Which is clearly not the case with Daniel and Revelation, like I said before both of those books are apochalytic literature and were written literally, those two books were
were written in a sort of code langugue and over two thousand years we have lost the key to understanding them completly.

I will note that the literal interpretation of those books have given rise to at least two real cults. I am not calling Mormons a cult so relax. I am speaking of the “Jehovah” Witnesses. and the seventh Day Adventists. All kinds of untrue doctrines come out of the literal misinterpretations of those two books.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening pipper! I hope you are feeling well today.

This should be very interesting, another mormon finnFire has already tried through very selective quotes of the Fathers that theosis and mormon “deification” are exactly the same.

If you are referring to me with this statement, then I must correct you and say that I did not or have I ever claimed that theosis and exaltation are exactly the same. Neither have I used selective quotes, but rather I have compared the similarities in the Greek Orthodox understanding of theosis to exaltation. There are very profound similarities just as there are profound differences and proving it doesn’t require selective quotes or any type of trickery. It is plain to anyone who wishes to study the matter, but only if you leave your bias at the doorstep.

The important point, however, is that the idea that one can “become a god by grace” isn’t a Joseph Smith “invention”, but it is a doctrine that was taught by Christ in His church anciently and later by His apostles and disciples, although this teaching has been largely ignored by modern day Christians (at least by Western Christians) and altogether shunned and abandoned by Protestants.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[pipper]

DZHeremi,
Sorry to have been perceived as “talking down to.”
Christ is my Judge. You are not. I love the Bible, and could outdo you in a verbatim quote contest from memory, easily. (I would have to use the King James Version, since that is what I know.) Mormonism holds the Bible to be far more literal than other faiths. It certainly does not agree with orthodox Christianity in many doctrinal areas, and that would be why.

Both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, in the verses I already posted (from the Catholic translation) talked about the withdrawal of the full and pure gospel from the earth that occurred before the Restoration. It is there to be found and understood.

BTW, Dont be so sure that you could outdo me in a bible contest, I was not born and raised Catholic, I was actually raised in the Campbellite “churches of Christ” and I was taught to memorised thousands of proof texts all out of context and all in incompreshensible King James “english”.

Churches of Christ also share the same “apostostacy/restoration” dichotomy as the Mormons that I reject no matter the source. It is completely beyond my capacity to understand how God could have ababdoned the church from nearly the begining only to have it “restored” back into existence over 1800 years later either by Joseph Smith or Alexander Campbell.\

Actually the Campbelites and Mormons have a lot in common, Sydney Rigdon actually started out with the Campbells long before he became Mormon.

Both baptise by immersion only for relatively mature beleivers.
Both do the “Lord’s Supper”, sacrament each and every Sunday in memory only.
Both have clergy less clergy.

But the main thing is that I reject Campbellite “restoration” in the same way I reject Mormon “restoration”.

 

[Finrock]

Hello again pipper.

It is completely beyond my capacity to understand how God could have ababdoned the church from nearly the begining only to have it “restored” back into existence over 1800 years later either by Joseph Smith or Alexander Campbell.

This concern is very common but it doesn’t reflect accurately how Mormons understand the apostasy. As a matter of fact, this idea that God abandoned His church gets corrected quite frequently on these forums by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For some reason or another, however, it is still a common misunderstanding.

The truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ doesn’t believe or does it teach that God abandoned His church. This is not how we understand the apostasy. The apostasy occurred because God’s truth and His church as He established it was abandoned by man and subsequently God took away His authority from the earth. But, this is always the pattern of any apostasy. If anyone abadons anything it is always mankind and never God abandoning His children.

Now, obviously Catholics and other mainstream Christians do not believe that God’s truth and church were abandoned, nevertheless, this is the LDS perspective.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[zaffiroborant]

DZHeremi,
Sorry to have been perceived as “talking down to.”
Christ is my Judge. You are not. I love the Bible, and could outdo you in a verbatim quote contest from memory, easily. (I would have to use the King James Version, since that is what I know.) Mormonism holds the Bible to be far more literal than other faiths. It certainly does not agree with orthodox Christianity in many doctrinal areas, and that would be why.

Both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, in the verses I already posted (from the Catholic translation) talked about the withdrawal of the full and pure gospel from the earth that occurred before the Restoration. It is there to be found and understood.

Isn’t that ironic, apologizing for “talking down to” followed up by “talking down to”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hello again pipper.

This concern is very common but it doesn’t reflect accurately how Mormons understand the apostasy. As a matter of fact, this idea that God abandoned His church gets corrected quite frequently on these forums by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For some reason or another, however, it is still a common misunderstanding.

The truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ doesn’t believe or does it teach that God abandoned His church. This is not how we understand the apostasy. The apostasy occurred because God’s truth and His church as He established it was abandoned by man and subsequently God took away His authority from the earth. But, this is always the pattern of any apostasy. If anyone abadons anything it is always mankind and never God abandoning His children.

Now, obviously Catholics and other mainstream Christians do not believe that God’s truth and church were abandoned, nevertheless, this is the LDS perspective.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

How is withdrawing authority to preform “necessary ordinances” or the authority to bestow the “gift of the Holy Ghost” not abandonment?

 

[dzheremi]

DZHeremi,
Sorry to have been perceived as “talking down to.”

Huh? That part was to the other poster who wrote “if anything, we Catholics should be talking down to you” (Mormons). I don’t agree with that.

Christ is my Judge. You are not.

Okay…

I love the Bible, and could outdo you in a verbatim quote contest from memory, easily.

How very Islamic of you. Excuse me while I remain unimpressed by this boasting, Hafiz ParkerD.

(I would have to use the King James Version, since that is what I know.) Mormonism holds the Bible to be far more literal than other faiths. It certainly does not agree with orthodox Christianity in many doctrinal areas, and that would be why.

I don’t understand how this is supposed to work, but okay.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening zaffiroborant! Hope you are well.

How is withdrawing authority to preform “necessary ordinances” or the authority to bestow the “gift of the Holy Ghost” not abandonment?

I’m assuming the subject of your question is God.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the right to exercise the priesthood is conditional. If the conditions God established aren’t in place, then the priesthood is withdrawn. It is mankind who, through their agency, either accepts or forsakes the conditions God establishes for the exercising of His priesthood.

Also, the Church does not believe that because the priesthood was withdrawn (due to mankinds agency and not because God desired it), that God also withdrew from mankind. God continued to care for and look after His children. He never abadons us, even when we forsake or abandon Him. And we also believe that God will never force any of us in to a choice. He respects our free agency perfectly and allows the bad to happen along with the good. The LDS church also believes that God knows all things from beginning to the end, and He knew that an apostasy would occur. He already had plan in place that would allow those true Christians who were born during the period of the apostasy, who would not be able to receive their ordinances while in mortality, to be able to eventually receive those essential ordinances. No person who’s heart and desires have been to follow Jesus Christ will be denied any blessing or ordinance because of circumstances beyond their control.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[zerinus]

My problem with that is that everyword of it is in King James gibbberish instead of English.

You guys used to criticise us for using Latin in our worship, but I can understand Latin better than your King James so called “English”.

Firs of all, we have never criticised your Latin worship. Secondly, the KJV is a great Englsh classic, a fantastic translation, and a great work of English literature. But if you don’t like it, that is okay; tell me how your Catholic Bible(s) translate those scriptural verses.

 

[zerinus]

Did you read it?

Yes; and still not any the wiser.

Please post a link to the writing in which Origen states there was a premortal existence.

He taught the “hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, ‘the fabulous preexistence of souls,’ . . . Much later, Origen got into theological trouble with the Church because of some extreme views adopted by his followers, . . . Among these were the preexistence of souls, universal salvation and a hierarchical concept of the Trinity. These teachings, and some of his followers’ more extreme views, were declared anathema by a local council in Constantinople 545, and then an ecumenical council (Fifth Ecumenical Council) pronounced “15 anathemas” against Origen in 553. . . . As a result of this condemnation, the writings of Origen supporting his teachings in these areas were destroyed. They were either outright destroyed, or they were translated with the appropriate adjustments to eliminate conflict with Orthodox Christianity (the “Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” referred to in the council of 553, which at the time included both of what are now called the Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Therefore, little direct evidence remains to fully confirm or disprove Origen’s support of the nine points of anathema against him.” Source.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Good evening zaffiroborant! Hope you are well.

I’m assuming the subject of your question is God.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the right to exercise the priesthood is conditional. If the conditions God established aren’t in place, then the priesthood is withdrawn. It is mankind who, through their agency, either accepts or forsakes the conditions God establishes for the exercising of His priesthood.

Also, the Church does not believe that because the priesthood was withdrawn (due to mankinds agency and not because God desired it), that God also withdrew from mankind. God continued to care for and look after His children. He never abadons us, even when we forsake or abandon Him. And we also believe that God will never force any of us in to a choice. He respects our free agency perfectly and allows the bad to happen along with the good. The LDS church also believes that God knows all things from beginning to the end, and He knew that an apostasy would occur. He already had plan in place that would allow those true Christians who were born during the period of the apostasy, who would not be able to receive their ordinances while in mortality, to be able to eventually receive those essential ordinances. No person who’s heart and desires have been to follow Jesus Christ will be denied any blessing or ordinance because of circumstances beyond their control.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

But by not receiving them in this life they are denied blessings, just read in the Ensign how blessed people are when they attend temple, pay their tithing and so on, not to mention the gift of the Holy Spirit.