Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[dianaiad]

I think you just did exactly what Christian55 says you (the collective Mormon you) do. Nothing answered. Personal attack.

And I think you just compared your niece to someone you call an “enemy”.

I compared her actions to those of Christian, and Rebecca? I did not call him an enemy. Remember? I said he had declared himself to be that.

 

[ricko]

Hello again pipper.

The truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ doesn’t believe or does it teach that God abandoned His church. This is not how we understand the apostasy. The apostasy occurred because God’s truth and His church as He established it was abandoned by man and subsequently God took away His authority from the earth. But, this is always the pattern of any apostasy. If anyone abadons anything it is always mankind and never God abandoning His children.

Now, obviously Catholics and other mainstream Christians do not believe that God’s truth and church were abandoned, nevertheless, this is the LDS perspective.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Jesus made it very clear that He would be with His Church till the end of the world and that the Holy Spirit would remain and guide the Church from teaching error. Now this is not opinion my Mormon friends, this is God speaking. No where in the bible does God say anything about the existence of the Church being conditional. God took away the keys which He gave to Peter? That would make God an Indian Giver! Never! This is false Mormon teaching with nothing to back it up.

 

[ParkerD]

Apology accepted, and let me add that I got a little carried away myself.

It is all well and good to interpret the Bible literally, but only when the original authors meant it to be literal.

Which is clearly not the case with Daniel and Revelation, like I said before both of those books are apochalyptic literature and were written literally, those two books were
were written in a sort of code langugue and over two thousand years we have lost the key to understanding them completely.

I will note that the literal interpretation of those books have given rise to at least two real cults. I am not calling Mormons a cult so relax. I am speaking of the “Jehovah” Witnesses. and the seventh Day Adventists. All kinds of untrue doctrines come out of the literal misinterpretations of those two books.

Pipper,
Thanks for writing more about yourself. You have an interesting background.

I agree that there are many untrue beliefs that have been advanced using the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. I think there are many hidden truths in those books, some of which can be taken and understood very literally. I wish you all the best in your life, Pipper.

 

[Christian55]

I compared her actions to those of Christian, and Rebecca? I did not call him an enemy. Remember? I said he had declared himself to be that.

Are you talking about me? Are you saying that I declared myself to be an enemy?

 

[Christian55]

Hello again pipper.
This concern is very common but it doesn’t reflect accurately how Mormons understand the apostasy. As a matter of fact, this idea that God abandoned His church gets corrected quite frequently on these forums by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For some reason or another, however, it is still a common misunderstanding.

The truth is that the Church of Jesus Christ doesn’t believe or does it teach that God abandoned His church. This is not how we understand the apostasy. The apostasy occurred because God’s truth and His church as He established it was abandoned by man and subsequently God took away His authority from the earth. But, this is always the pattern of any apostasy. If anyone abadons anything it is always mankind and never God abandoning His children.

Now, obviously Catholics and other mainstream Christians do not believe that God’s truth and church were abandoned, nevertheless, this is the LDS perspective.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Finrock

I have posted comments about how quickly you vanish from a Thread, when the discussions become difficult. So, I am glad to see you back in the discussion.

This is a Catholic Forum and the Forum welcomes other religions. Having said that, what is astounding to me is that the LDS come to this Forum, and basically tell all non-Mormon Christians that we abandoned God’s truth and His Church; and God took away His authority from the earth, until Joseph Smith appeared in history.

So, according to the Mormon Church, all non-Mormons are part of the “Great Apostasy.” Then, LDS Forum Members seem surprised, when we are offended; or when we persist with questions; or when we speak frankly in our opinions of your beliefs.

When we do say what we think about Mormonism, suddenly the LDS take on the role of the “persecuted,” as you did in your response yesterday:

How long should one pray to know that Mormonism is true?
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=355133
Post #107: Christian55 and Byzantine Wolf,
I am not put off or threatened at all by your choice of words. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” is often applicable in the real world.

Basically, you are saying the Priesthood has been removed from all non-Mormons:

Post 254: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the right to exercise the priesthood is conditional. If the conditions God established aren’t in place, then the priesthood is withdrawn. It is mankind who, through their agency, either accepts or forsakes the conditions God establishes for the exercising of His priesthood.

You are saying things are hidden from us:

Post #238: Pipper,
All these things are hidden from your understanding, as I noted that Daniel was told in his vision. I cannot make you understand. No one can. I can’t help you get over your inability to understand the King James Bible, either. Sorry. You’ll be fine with what you have, if you live the gospel as best you know how. Best wishes in that.

There is nothing any of us could say to the LDS Forum Members that could be worse than your clear belief that we are all part of the “Great Apostasy.”

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Christian55. I hope you are having a wonderful day!

Finrock

I have posted comments about how quickly you vanish from a Thread, when the discussions become difficult. So, I am glad to see you back in the discussion.

That is conjecture on your part, but it isn’t the reality. I respond to posts that are relevant and rational. There is nothing difficult about your posts or line of questioning, they are simply misinformed and often false representations of Mormon doctrine. I am not interested in arguing about my religious doctrines. I am interested, however, in correcting misinformation, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations that many people have about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is a Catholic Forum and the Forum welcomes other religions. Having said that, what is astounding to me is that the LDS come to this Forum, and basically tell all non-Mormon Christians that we abandoned God’s truth and His Church; and God took away His authority from the earth, until Joseph Smith appeared in history.

Actually, your representation of my actions are skewed. I’ve responded to questions and provided correct information about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe, this also I have done as a response to misrepresented opinions and assertions.

You’ve attributed posts #107 from the “How long to pray…” thread and #238 from this thread to me, when these are posts made by ParkerD.

Post #254 from this thread is mine. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that it is the only church on earth that has the priesthood authority. This claim is no different from the Catholics who claim they are the only church with the proper authority or the Orthodox who claim the same.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

Finrock

When we do say what we think about Mormonism, suddenly the LDS take on the role of the “persecuted,” as you did in your response yesterday:

You are saying things are hidden from us:

There is nothing any of us could say to the LDS Forum Members that could be worse than your clear belief that we are all part of the “Great Apostasy.”

Christian55,
Since mine were some of the quotes you noted, I’ll explain that I don’t feel “persecuted” at all, but I do notice attempts to discredit my belief in Christ and His gospel, so I responded that “they know not what they do.” Being able to forgive is a good thing, not a bad thing. Christ taught forgiveness; I try to follow that teaching.

The Bible (book of Daniel) says things will be clear to the righteous during the end time. Others will not understand the passages or the visions, or will misinterpret them.

I don’t think of anyone living today as being “part of the ‘Great Apostasy’”. It happened during a period of time during about 100-300 AD. The roots of Christianity remained good, and are still good. Some purity was lost, and divinely sanctioned authority was lost, but much good and much truth remained, and are being followed by many wonderful people. Have a great week.

 

[Jerusha]

Parker, I don’t understand how you arrived at the conclusions you have made, but I respect your right to do so. Your rationale on the ‘apostasy’ is at least a tolerant one.

 

[Christian55]

Continued–Part 2 of 2-ParkerD’s Proof Scriptures

michael was the archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there.

Where does the Scripture say that we all were there supporting Adam and Christ with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude?

finally, lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against god bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.

**Lucifer **is a Latin word. Are you sure it is a name for Satan? Please quote your Scripture.

Please note what verse 10 says, which is a sure Biblical promise.

Daniel 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How does this relate to Adam? Are you saying all non-Mormon Christians are the wicked who will never understand, and the Mormons are the wise who do understand?

Who is this “Prince Michael” the defender of the people? In Revelation 12 one finds the same expression of “a time, and times, and half a time.” (v. 14) One also finds Michael talked about in verse 7.

Revelation 12:14 (NJB): but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.

What is your interpretation of “a time, and times, and half a time”?
What do you believe this is saying?

Revelation 7:12 (NJB): And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels,

One reads in Jude about Michael the archangel: 9 Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’ Note that the name Michael means one “who is like God”.

What does this have to do with Adam being Michael, the archangel, and Ancient of Days?

Jude 9 (NJB): Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’

What is your point here?

The link between Michael and the “Ancient of days” can be inferred from Daniel 7 in the descriptive language used. It is not stated directly. It is hidden as was promised in Daniel 12:10. Only the wise will understand.

Daniel Chapter 12:1 (NJB): calls Michael “the great Prince, defender of your people.” It does not mention any connection to Adam or the Ancient of Days.

Daniel 12:1 (NJB): 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people.

Where is the connection between Michael and Adam?-

Which passages in Daniel, Chapter 7, contain the descriptive language used to even infer the link between Adam, Michael, and the “Ancient of Days” (“One most venerable”)?

Daniel Chapter 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How can you possibly read into Daniel 12:10, the belief that what is not understood is that Adam is Michael and the Ancient of Days; or that Adam holds the keys to the Priesthood?

The words “Ancient of days” have been changed in the version you asked me to quote from, to “one most Venerable”. I see no reason to arm wrestle over the difference in meaning. “Ancient of days” has much deeper meaning in the context, but as noted in Daniel 12, the meaning would be hidden, such that only “the wise shall understand.”

What are you trying to prove with Luke 3:33-38 (NJB)?

son of Amminadab, son of Admin, son of Arni, son of Hezron, son of Perez, son of Judah,
34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor,
35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah,
36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech,
37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan,
38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

I have presented the verses from the Bible that are related to BY’s beliefs about Adam, Michael, the Ancient of days, and his holding of priesthood keys that will become pertinent during the end of times, when Christ will reign as promised. Also about the war in heaven, the casting down of Satan or Lucifer (see also Isaiah 14:12-16), and the triumphant victory of the righteous during the end times and “forever and ever.”

ParkerD: I read all the Scriptures you quoted: Daniel Chapter 7, Daniel Chapter 12, Revelation Chapter 12, Jude, Luke 3:33-38. They failed to support your claims.

Please provide specific Scriptures for your beliefs as requested above.

Christian55

 

[Christian55]

**Part 1 of 2-ParkerD’s Proof Scriptures
**

christian 55,

I also appreciate your politeness above. When i pray, i assure you i am not praying to adam. I agree that some of by’s language seems to have been confusing if he was quoted and transcribed entirely verbatim. If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

**
Daniel Chapter 12:1 (New Jerusalem Bible):**
1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is Michael, the archangel?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was part of the quorum of three who helped make and organize this world?

he had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had special responsibilities?

he was in the garden of eden with a body that was conceived by heavenly father, and heavenly father walked and talked with him in the garden of eden.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was “conceived” (as opposed to created) by God the Father?

he became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and eve had mortal children.

christ was begotten by heavenly father, not by the holy ghost. (note: It was by the power of the holy ghost coming upon or overshadowing mary.)

What are you trying to say here about the conception of Christ? Please give the Scripture.

because adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by god with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with jesus christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing judas with matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father,

Where does the Scripture say that Adam holds the priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by god with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ, and the original twelve apostles, to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father?

So, you are saying Adam will serve as judge, with Christ, as righteous first father?

to present his righteous posterity to christ who in turn will present them to god the father, christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by adam and eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to god the father?

by chose to emphasize the position adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a god.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam held power in the pre-mortal world, and that Adam is called a god?

I personally think “archangel” is the more useful description, but i don’t intend to bicker with by in the hereafter over his use of a different term than i would use.

I’ve quoted BJ many times. He insisted Adam was God.

one of the things lost in this discussion is that adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world.

How do you know the thoughts of Adam?

if only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy!

imagine how adam and eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

Again, how do you know the wishes of Adam and Eve?

if we could part the veil backwards in time to the war in heaven time period, we would see the role michael played as the advocate for the father’s plan, along with christ who was going to play the central role as the savior and redeemer.

Continued—Next Post

[/QUOTE]

 

[Christian55]

Christian55,
Since mine were some of the quotes you noted, I’ll explain that I don’t feel “persecuted” at all, but I do notice attempts to discredit my belief in Christ and His gospel, so I responded that “they know not what they do.” Being able to forgive is a good thing, not a bad thing. Christ taught forgiveness; I try to follow that teaching.

The Bible (book of Daniel) says things will be clear to the righteous during the end time. Others will not understand the passages or the visions, or will misinterpret them.

I don’t think of anyone living today as being “part of the ‘Great Apostasy’”. It happened during a period of time during about 100-300 AD. The roots of Christianity remained good, and are still good. Some purity was lost, and divinely sanctioned authority was lost, but much good and much truth remained, and are being followed by many wonderful people. Have a great week.

ParkerD:

I believe that you are sincere and committed to your faith. I respect the way you discuss the issues on the Forums.

However, many LDS Posts attempt to discredit non-Mormon Christians’ belief in Christ and His gospel and God.

Even you have done this. You just do is so politely, it takes a bit to realize what you are actually saying.

Some LDS forum members reveal things, when they are clearly angry or annoyed.

Zerinus, I know you will hate me for using you as an example. But, I can already feel your anger, even your hatred, in some of your responses to me. So, I think the damage between us is already done. Though I do not harbor any ill feelings toward you, and will not–regardless of what names you call me.

The point is, truth seems to slip out when someone is angry.

In the following quotes, is Zerinus speaking the truth about what Mormons really think of the non-Mormon Christians?
**
Quotes from Thread: How long should one pray to know that Mormonism is true?**

As you know, Mormons believe that Christianity is Apostate; so what you call “the God of Christianity” is actually the God of “Apostate Christianity”.

What that means is that Mormons worship the God of the Bible. I don’t know what kind of a God it is that you worship.

Mormons believe in the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They believe in the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and in the Trinity of the New Testament—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Needless to say, they don’t believe in the absurdity of Trinitarianism which has no basis in scripture.

Christian55

 

[ParkerD]

Christian55,
I will respond as I get time, to your several questions.

Daniel Chapter 12:1 (New Jerusalem Bible):

1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is Michael, the archangel?

The Bible does not say that Michael the archangel became Adam on earth. Daniel 12:10 says the “wise will understand” Daniel’s vision and prophecy. The visions described in Daniel 7 and in Daniel 12 contain similar themes, and Michael the archangel (see Jude) is a Prince and is the Ancient of days (other translations for what your translation calls “venerable one”). A person would gain the understanding about Michael and the Ancient of days by being righteous during the end times, according to Daniel. To me that implies they would know by revelation, since the vision and prophecy were communicated by revelation.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t think we should be talking down to anyone. I’d rather talk straight to them.

I don’t think Mormons and Catholics get along fine. In fact, I don’t think Mormons get along with any Christian church, as they reject the Holy Trinity, pervert the Bible and the Christian message, and steer people into heresy with their strange and damning doctrines and falsehoods.

Mormonism is not Christian. It is heresy and lies trying to ride its way into favor with Christians by appropriating genuine Christian figures and vocabulary and twisting them to suit its own sick desires. It is no different in that respect from Islam or any other batch of glorified heresies cooked up since Our Lord warned us that people would come after Him attempting to persuade people away from the true path of GOD, which is in the Holy and Apostolic Churches that Mormonism slanders with fantasies like the “Great Apostasy”. What’s to get along with in all this nonsense?

(sigh)

I guess you are going to have to go talk to Catholic Charities and tell them to stop working with us, then, and the next time the Pope comes to visit, you should perhaps get your own youth to set up the chairs, because Mormons and Catholics don’t get along at all.

No. We do not see eye to eye on doctrine. We do, however, respect each other, respect the freedom we each have to worship the way we please, and work together for the good of others.

 

[pipper]

(sigh)

No. We do not see eye to eye on doctrine. We do, however, respect each other, respect the freedom we each have to worship the way we please, and work together for the good of others.

Bravo dianaiad, with that I agree %10000 percent. Doctrinal difficulties are many and not to be dismissed, but that does not prevent us working together for humanitarian causes.

I think that was the premiss of the OP, how far we have gone since.

 

[Christian55]

Daniel Chapter 12:1 (New Jerusalem Bible): 1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is Michael, the archangel?

say that Michael the archangel became Adam on earth. Daniel 12:10 says the “wise will understand” Daniel’s vision and prophecy. The visions described in Daniel 7 and in Daniel 12 contain similar themes, and Michael the archangel (see Jude) is a Prince and is the Ancient of days (other translations for what your translation calls “venerable one”). A person would gain the understanding about Michael and the Ancient of days by being righteous during the end times, according to Daniel. To me that implies they would know by revelation, since the vision and prophecy were communicated by revelation.

So, there is no Biblical Scripture that states Adam is Michael. And there is no Scripture that says Adam is the Ancient of Days. There are not even hints of these connections in Daniel.

You stated, “A person would gain the understanding about Michael and the Ancient of days by being righteous during the end times, according to Daniel. To me that implies they would know by revelation, since the vision and prophecy were communicated by revelation.” So, are you claiming only the Mormon Church has this revelation that is not in the Bible?

Catholic Encyclopedia. Link: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Ancient_of_Days
Ancient of Days, a name given to God by the Prophet Daniel, vii, 9, 13, 22, in which he contrasts His eternal powers with the frail existence of the empires of the world. It is from these descriptions of the Almighty that Christian art derived its general manner of representing the first person of the Holy Trinity. Ancient of Days is expressed in Aramaic by `Atiq yomin; in the Greek Septuagint by palaios emeron; and in the Vulgate by Antiquus dierum. A. J. MAAS.

I do understand the problem you face. Since, Joseph Smith claimed Adam is the" Ancient of Days"; you would need to somehow prove that the “Ancient of Days” is not a reference to God. Especially in view of Brigham Young’s writings-which clearly defined Adam as God. It’s that old Adam-God issue. It never seems to go away.

I look forward to any Scriptures to support your other points. If you have no Biblical Scriptures to support your beliefs, then please quote your LDS sources.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No. We do not see eye to eye on doctrine. We do, however, respect each other, respect the freedom we each have to worship the way we please, and work together for the good of others.

“you work on what is common”

 

[dianaiad]

“you work on what is common”

“It’s proof positive to me,” he said, “that our different cultures — religious and otherwise — can come together. We can work together, respect each other and develop friendships that are great gifts from God.”

Thank you for posting this article, Rebecca.

 

[ParkerD]

So, there is no Biblical Scripture that states Adam is Michael. And there is no Scripture that says Adam is the Ancient of Days. There are not even hints of these connections in Daniel.

 

[ParkerD]

“you work on what is common”

Rebecca J,
My thanks also. I had noticed that article and greatly appreciate his wisdom and insights.

 

[Christian55]

Christian55,
I have said I do not consider Adam is god, so if this discussion is headed in the direction that you are going to say “it never seems to go away,” then it becomes pointless for me to try and answer your questions. See Luke 3:38 to find the relationship between Adam and God.

If you look at Daniel 7:10, 13, 14, 21, and 22, then at Doctrine and Covenants 107:53-56, and Doctrine and Covenants 29:26-27, available on-line, you will have an LDS source that Adam is the Ancient of Days and is Michael, the prince, the archangel.

I am more interested in people who happen onto this discussion reading the link that Rebecca posted than reading anything I might have to say, so here follows that link again, and I am going to lay low for a few days so that I don’t detract from people finding that link and reading what the Catholic Bishop in Salt Lake City had to say.

ParkerD: let’s remove the Adam-God theory, so, that you will not use it as an excuse to abandon providing Biblical Scriptures to justify the beliefs you expressed in the following Post:

Christian 55,
. . . Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

BY chose to emphasize the position Adam holds and the power he held in the pre-mortal world by calling him a God. I personally think “Archangel” is the more useful description, but I don’t intend to bicker with BY in the hereafter over his use of a different term than I would use.

One of the things lost in this discussion is that Adam loves his posterity–you and me and everyone else, like a father loves his children and grandchildren. We sometimes lose sight of that in this work-a-day hard-to-get-along-with-each-other world. If only we could see each other as truly children of the same first parents, imagine the peace the world could enjoy! Imagine how Adam and Eve must wish their posterity would learn to get along with each other with respect and love for each other, allowing for differences without getting into such patterns of ill will and mis-treatment and misjudging.

If we could part the veil backwards in time to the War in Heaven time period, we would see the role Michael played as the advocate for the Father’s plan, along with Christ who was going to play the central role as the Savior and Redeemer. Michael was the Archangel, the great leading warrior and we all were there supporting these two with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude. They encouraged us as our super-leaders, and we fought the spiritual warfare against the forces of evil there. Finally, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, his rebellion against God bringing him to ruin. His rebellion continues, but all of us together are winning against his oppressive attempts to rule on this earth, to which he was cast down, and Christ leads in that triumph and will continue to lead it until the triumph is complete.