Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[Christian55]

ParkerD:
Surely, questions about your own statements and Scriptures you quoted are not off limits.

These are my questions related to your Post #218, 233 & 234.

Daniel Chapter 12:1 (New Jerusalem Bible):
1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is Michael, the archangel?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was part of the quorum of three who helped make and organize this world?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had special responsibilities?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was “conceived” (as opposed to created) by God the Father?

Originally Posted by parkerd:
“christ was begotten by heavenly father, not by the holy ghost. (note: It was by the power of the holy ghost coming upon or overshadowing mary.)”

What are you trying to say here about the conception of Christ? Please give Scriptures.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam holds the priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by god with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ, and the original twelve apostles, to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father?

Are you saying Adam will serve as judge, with Christ, as righteous first father?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to god the father?

Where does the Scripture say that Adam held power in the pre-mortal world, and that Adam is called a god?

Where does the Scripture say that we all were there supporting Adam and Christ with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude?

**Lucifer **is a Latin word. Are you sure it is a name for Satan? Please quote your Scripture.

Daniel 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How does this relate to Adam? Are you saying all non-Mormon Christians are the wicked who will never understand, and the Mormons are the wise who do understand?

Revelation 12:14 (NJB): but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.

What is your interpretation of “a time, and times, and half a time”?
What do you believe this is saying?

Revelation 7:12 (NJB): And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels,

What does this have to do with Adam being Michael, the archangel, and Ancient of Days?

Jude 9 (NJB): Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’

What is your point here?

Daniel 12:1 (NJB): 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people.

Where is the connection between Michael and Adam?-

Which passages in Daniel, Chapter 7, contain the descriptive language used to even infer the link between Adam, Michael, and the “Ancient of Days” (“One most venerable”)?

Daniel Chapter 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How can you possibly read into Daniel 12:10, the belief that what is not understood is that Adam is Michael and the Ancient of Days; or that Adam holds the keys to the Priesthood?

What are you trying to prove with Luke 3:33-38 (NJB)? I’m sure it relates to “Adam, son of God.”

son of Amminadab, son of Admin, son of Arni, son of Hezron, son of Perez, son of Judah,
34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor,
35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah,
36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech,
37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan,
38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

 

[nordskoven]

Unique of all “Christian” religions–and I use the term loosely in that Mormonism is a form of gnosticism which merely uses Christian terminology–the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid. Christians baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Christ commanded are recognized as baptized by the Catholic Church excepting the Mormons/Church of Christ in that their definition of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not consonant with Church teaching.

God the Father is not a human-type man living on another planet who physically inseminated Jesus’ mother, “Jesus” defined as Lucifer’s spirit-brother. Christians will not become gods and goddesses living with their spouses for all eternity in marital bonds. “Ye shall become gods” was Lucifer’s deadly lie. Mormonism and its various splinter groups and derivatives represent a cult of personality more than a denomination having theological variances with the Church. Special revelation given to one man, and revelation given a malleability with changing times–the dark-skinned no longer being of diabolical bent as once taught–puts Mormonism on par with Black Muslims.

 

[Christian55]

Some LDS websites contain JD.

Journal of Discourses (JD)
JD 6:2 – p.3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world – a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. If any man is authorized to take away my life because he things and says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, we should be justified in taking away the life of every false teacher; and where would be the end of blood? And who would not be the sufferer?

JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.

I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, --I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form –like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for** I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.
**
These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”–to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you doing to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you
do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in every lasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

 

[mjf001]

Yes; and still not any the wiser.
To quote one of my favorite stories , “How can you be so obtuse, is it deliberate?”

You asserted that St. Michael was Adam. I posted a link to an article which clearly states that St. Michael may be many things but Adam was not mentioned among those things.

He taught the “hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, ‘the fabulous preexistence of souls,’ . . . Much later, Origen got into theological trouble with the Church because of some extreme views adopted by his followers, . . . Among these were the preexistence of souls, universal salvation and a hierarchical concept of the Trinity. These teachings, and some of his followers’ more extreme views, were declared anathema by a local council in Constantinople 545, and then an ecumenical council (Fifth Ecumenical Council) pronounced “15 anathemas” against Origen in 553. . . . As a result of this condemnation, the writings of Origen supporting his teachings in these areas were destroyed. They were either outright destroyed, or they were translated with the appropriate adjustments to eliminate conflict with Orthodox Christianity (the “Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” referred to in the council of 553, which at the time included both of what are now called the Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Therefore, little direct evidence remains to fully confirm or disprove Origen’s support of the nine points of anathema against him.” Source.

If the one of the Church’s councils condemned those writings, why should I pay any attention to them. The fact they were condemned, indicates they are contrary to the deposit of faith.

So, do you have any non-LDS, non heretical writings to back up your claim?

 

[zerinus]

To quote one of my favorite stories , “How can you be so obtuse, is it deliberate?”

You asserted that St. Michael was Adam. I posted a link to an article which clearly states that St. Michael may be many things but Adam was not mentioned among those things.

Your link referred to the speculations of uninspired theologians which did not even reach a definitive conclusion. My information was based on the definitive revelations of God to a great modern day prophet. There is no comparison between the two.

If the one of the Church’s councils condemned those writings, why should I pay any attention to them. The fact they were condemned, indicates they are contrary to the deposit of faith.

You asked for proof that Origen taught that doctrine, and I gave you one. Origen was the greatest of the early Christian theologians, and the first in his class. He was not condemned by his contemporaries. The fact that some apostate council condemned him three centuries later is hardly relevant.

So, do you have any non-LDS, non heretical writings to back up your claim?

Yes, Origen.

 

[Answersplease]

RebeccaJ:

I doubt you will get a direct answer to any of the tough questions. I’ve been trying on different Threads. LDS members claim they’ve answered the questions, when they clearly have not.

Finrock usually moves on to a new Thread, when faced with the difficult questions.

Some LDS forum members hurl insults, when I persist with a question. I’ve been called terrible names, just because I try to get questions answered. It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Christian55, your posts suggests to me you are some kind of a fanatic Mormon hater blinded by prejudice with whom it is not possible to conduct a rational discussion. I don’t feel inclined to reply to your posts or engage you in debate, and I doubt if other LDS do either.

You have run amock quoting from anti-Mormon websites, some of whom are equally anti-Catholic such as CARM, forgetting that this is a Catholic site, and now you are making threats against me. I noticed that you are not Catholic. I guess you are somebody from CARM who is is as much anti-Catholic as anti-Mormon. And I am not afraid of your stupid threats, okay.

He is an enemy. We didn’t declare him that, though, he did. You know that my definition of “anti” is rather strict…and he is an anti. Why? Because he deliberately takes things out of context, and when corrected refuses to acknowledge his error. He simply waits for a beat or two and does it again.

He equivocates.

He claims that his questions are not answered when, indeed, they are–over and over again. He doesn’t like the answers, but that doesn’t mean they were not answered. He reminds me of my niece who called me today crying because she flunked the assessment test for math, and so is not able to enroll in Algebra. She has to take Math 60 (not even Math 70, but…Math 60.) This means that it is going to take her a full year of remedial math in order to be ready to take college level math.

In the meantime, she’s acing English, Lit and history classes, as well as her science classes. Ok, she says, I want to take Algebra. They won’t let me. Fix it.

I say…sorry, your assessment test says “Math 60.” you have two choices; retake the assessment test and hope for a better grade or take Math 60. “But…” she whined…" I don’t WANT to take Math 60! I have to have Algebra for my AA so I can transfer!" I said “fine. Retake the assessment test and hope for a better grade or take Math 60 and 70, then take Algebra.”

“But…I don’t want to!”

“Fine. Don’t. Then you won’t get the classes you need to transfer and to graduate.”

“But it will take me a year!”

“Fine. go cram for a few weeks, retake the assessment test and get a better grade.”

…and on it went.

The end of the conversation was “Oh, you are no help, Aunt Diana; you didn’t answer any of my questions!”

…

Yep, Christian reminds me of that.

I think you just did exactly what Christian55 says you (the collective Mormon you) do. Nothing answered. Personal attack.

And I think you just compared your niece to someone you call an “enemy”.

"Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches."

 

[Answersplease]

"Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches."

The above quote is from “Mormon Stumpers”,

catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

 

[ParkerD]

Christian55 and others who may read this,
I will assume you have read the link posted by Rebecca J in her recent post. I respect your beliefs, and hope to answer your questions respectfully and honestly here.

ParkerD:
Surely, questions about your own statements and Scriptures you quoted are not off limits.

These are my questions related to your Post #218, 233 & 234.

Daniel Chapter 12:1 (New Jerusalem Bible):
1 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people. That will be a time of great distress, unparalleled since nations first came into existence. When that time comes, your own people will be spared – all those whose names are found written in the Book.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is Michael, the archangel?

As I had written before, it doesn’t “say”, because Daniel 12:10 explains the meaning will be hidden except from the righteous. The Bible is a revelatory book, and the Spirit of revelation, the Holy Ghost, is needed for understanding. But if you read Daniel 7 and Daniel 12 and Revelation 12:7 and also have the Holy Ghost with you as you read, you may perceive a symmetry within the plan of Heaven, in that Michael was a warrior in the pre-mortal world where there was a war in Heaven, and he will be a warrior during the end time. It makes sense to me that Adam is the Ancient of Days, in that he has power and priesthood and gives his authority to Christ as shown in Daniel 7.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was part of the quorum of three who helped make and organize this world?

It doesn’t. But in Genesis 1:26 it does use the word “us” to describe the creation, saying “let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Further understanding than this would be by revelation to the righteous who have the Holy Ghost reveal hidden knowledge to them.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world?

Michael did, as the archangel. See Revelation 12:7.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam had special responsibilities?

The Ancient of Days has special responsibilities during the end time, shown in Daniel 7. One who reads the Bible and understands the responsibility of parenthood would also understand that Adam and Eve were given a tremendous responsibility as first parents. Also, Malachi 4:6 says the earth will be cursed unless the “heart of the children turn to their fathers” through the coming of Elijah the prophet “before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” Elijah thus has an important mission or assignment from God that relates to all the fathers throughout time. If one understands the sealing power, one can grasp what that mission relates to and how it ties all of their posterity to Adam and Eve as first parents.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam was “conceived” (as opposed to created) by God the Father?

Luke 3 gives a lineal descent, including saying “Adam, which was the son of God.”

Originally Posted by parkerd:
“Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (note: It was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing mary.)”

What are you trying to say here about the conception of Christ? Please give Scriptures.

See Luke 1:31-35. Jesus will be the “Son of the Highest.” The “power of the Highest” was involved in Jesus’ conception, through the Holy Ghost coming upon Mary.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam holds the priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity?

Adam offered sacrifices, as did his son Abel, and did that by holding the priesthood and using it righteously. The Ancient of Days has special responsibility, as shown in Daniel 7:10, 13, 22 and 27. The “ten thousand times ten thousand” are Adam’s posterity when the “judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

Where does the Scripture say that Adam will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ, and the original twelve apostles, to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father?

See Daniel 7:10 in conjunction with Revelation 5:9-14 and Revelation 20:12. Also see Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 about the twelve apostles judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Are you saying Adam will serve as judge, with Christ, as righteous first father?

I was saying that Adam, as the Ancient of Days, will present his posterity to Christ for Christ to judge them and provide the mercy that only He can provide.

Where does the Scripture say that Adam is to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father?

It is implied in Daniel 7 and in Revelation 3:21.

What are you trying to prove with Luke 3:33-38 (NJB)? I’m sure it relates to “Adam, son of God.”

son of Amminadab, son of Admin, son of Arni, son of Hezron, son of Perez, son of Judah,
34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor,
35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah,
36 son of Cainan, son of Arphaxad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech,
37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan,
38 son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

 

[ParkerD]

Christian55,
I haven’t agreed with the question I have skipped.

Where does the Scripture say that we all were there supporting Adam and Christ with all of the intensity of our spiritual fortitude?

Read Revelation 12:7 and also verse 4, and read Jude 6 (KJV). There were angels who kept their first estate, and we were part of that group; there was a war in Heaven, and a third “part of the stars of heaven” were “cast to the earth”. Two thirds were those who were the angels who “kept their first estate,” and who fought with Michael on his side which was on Christ’s side.

**Lucifer **is a Latin word. Are you sure it is a name for Satan? Please quote your Scripture.

Compare Revelation 12:9 with Isaiah 14:12-14, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and you get the sense that the two descriptions are about the casting of Satan out of heaven after he rebelled and “fell” from heaven. Eventually, he will be bound and be cast into hell forever. (Revelation 20:10)

Daniel 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How does this relate to Adam? Are you saying all non-Mormon Christians are the wicked who will never understand, and the Mormons are the wise who do understand?

It says the wise will understand. I think that will be many, many people–not just Mormons. I think it is clear that the wicked will never understand the prophecy.

Revelation 12:14 (NJB): but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert, to the place where she was to be looked after for a time, two times and half a time.

What is your interpretation of “a time, and times, and half a time”?
What do you believe this is saying?

It would mean a very long time.
It would mean that the church would be taken away to a place of safety from the serpent’s power, and be “looked after” for a very long time within that place of safety and out of the reach of the serpent’s power. If you compare this with Daniel 7:21 and 25, and with Daniel 2:44-45, then there is a sense of the church being taken away and later the kingdom being “set up” which shall “never be destroyed” and “shall stand forever.”

Revelation 7:12 (NJB): And now war broke out in heaven, when Michael with his angels attacked the dragon. The dragon fought back with his angels,

What does this have to do with Adam being Michael, the archangel, and Ancient of Days?

I have explained that in my just previous post.

Jude 9 (NJB): Not even the archangel Michael, when he was engaged in argument with the devil about the corpse of Moses, dared to denounce him in the language of abuse; all he said was, ‘May the Lord rebuke you.’

What is your point here?

This use of the words “archangel Michael” shows that Michael had enough knowledge and power to argue with the devil, and that he would not be abusive in his language but would let the Lord do the judging.

Daniel 12:1 (NJB): 'At that time Michael will arise – the great Prince, defender of your people.

Where is the connection between Michael and Adam?-

As I have written, no connection can be drawn other than by revelation through the Holy Ghost.

Which passages in Daniel, Chapter 7, contain the descriptive language used to even infer the link between Adam, Michael, and the “Ancient of Days” (“One most venerable”)?

Fair question. The whole book of Daniel seems to be about kingdoms and the power implied in kingdoms. “Ancient of Days” as a term to refer to the oldest righteous priesthood holder on earth and one with billions of posterity, seems logical to me. But again, the understanding would be hidden.

Daniel Chapter 12:10 (NJB): Many will be cleansed, made white and purged; the wicked will persist in doing wrong; the wicked will never understand; those who are wise will understand.

How can you possibly read into Daniel 12:10, the belief that what is not understood is that Adam is Michael and the Ancient of Days; or that Adam holds the keys to the Priesthood?

Because of the Spirit of revelation and the knowledge that priesthood was given to men to act in the authority of God, and whenever men act in the authority of God, they have priesthood in order to do that. Adam would have keys of priesthood because he was the first father.

 

[dianaiad]

"Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches."

take the word “fact” and remove the quotes, please. Unless, of course, you consider murder, theft, official government sanction to murder and having an army sent after you to be something other than persecution.

Unless you consider that the refusal to seat a legally elected Senator because of his religion is not persecution.

Unless you consider that after having ensured that women had the right to vote, that right was removed BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION, is not persecution.

Unless you consider the sort of stuff that Jack Chick, et. al, writes is not persecution.

If that is so, then perhaps you need to define ‘persecution,’ so that we all know precisely what you are talking about.

Most of the people on this forum are not ‘anti’s’ as I would define them, no matter how harsh their criticism might be. A few, however, are. I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to identify those and call them on their actions. Wouldn’t you do the same for a typical CARM poster?

 

[Christian55]

Originally Posted by Christian55
RebeccaJ: I doubt you will get a direct answer to any of the tough questions. I’ve been trying on different Threads. LDS members claim they’ve answered the questions, when they clearly have not.

Finrock usually moves on to a new Thread, when faced with the difficult questions.

Some LDS forum members hurl insults, when I persist with a question. I’ve been called terrible names, just because I try to get questions answered. It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Originally Posted by zerinus
Christian55, your posts suggests to me you are some kind of a fanatic Mormon hater blinded by prejudice with whom it is not possible to conduct a rational discussion. I don’t feel inclined to reply to your posts or engage you in debate, and I doubt if other LDS do either.

Originally Posted by zerinus
You have run amock quoting from anti-Mormon websites, some of whom are equally anti-Catholic such as CARM, forgetting that this is a Catholic site, and now you are making threats against me. I noticed that you are not Catholic. I guess you are somebody from CARM who is is as much anti-Catholic as anti-Mormon. And I am not afraid of your stupid threats, okay.

Originally Posted by dianaiad
He is an enemy. We didn’t declare him that, though, he did. You know that my definition of “anti” is rather strict…and he is an anti. Why? Because he deliberately takes things out of context, and when corrected refuses to acknowledge his error. He simply waits for a beat or two and does it again.

He equivocates.

He claims that his questions are not answered when, indeed, they are–over and over again. He doesn’t like the answers, but that doesn’t mean they were not answered. He reminds me of my niece who called me today crying because she flunked the assessment test for math, and so is not able to enroll in Algebra. She has to take Math 60 (not even Math 70, but…Math 60.) This means that it is going to take her a full year of remedial math in order to be ready to take college level math.

In the meantime, she’s acing English, Lit and history classes, as well as her science classes. Ok, she says, I want to take Algebra. They won’t let me. Fix it.

I say…sorry, your assessment test says “Math 60.” you have two choices; retake the assessment test and hope for a better grade or take Math 60. “But…” she whined…" I don’t WANT to take Math 60! I have to have Algebra for my AA so I can transfer!" I said “fine. Retake the assessment test and hope for a better grade or take Math 60 and 70, then take Algebra.”

“But…I don’t want to!”

“Fine. Don’t. Then you won’t get the classes you need to transfer and to graduate.”

“But it will take me a year!”

“Fine. go cram for a few weeks, retake the assessment test and get a better grade.”

…and on it went.

The end of the conversation was “Oh, you are no help, Aunt Diana; you didn’t answer any of my questions!”

… …

Yep, Christian reminds me of that.

Originally Posted by RebeccaJ
I think you just did exactly what Christian55 says you (the collective Mormon you) do. Nothing answered. Personal attack.

And I think you just compared your niece to someone you call an “enemy”.

"Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches."

Answersplease: Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the Forum again. The irony is that I received attacks from quoting Mormon Prophets. You are right about the “persecution” mindset of many Mormons.

You notice, Zerinus said to me, “I noticed that you are not Catholic.” I did not say whether or not I am Catholic. My Forum name is Christian55. Is Zerinus saying Catholics aren’t Christian?

 

[Christian55]

take the word “fact” and remove the quotes, please. Unless, of course, you consider murder, theft, official government sanction to murder and having an army sent after you to be something other than persecution.

Unless you consider that the refusal to seat a legally elected Senator because of his religion is not persecution.

Unless you consider that after having ensured that women had the right to vote, that right was removed BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION, is not persecution.

Unless you consider the sort of stuff that Jack Chick, et. al, writes is not persecution.

If that is so, then perhaps you need to define ‘persecution,’ so that we all know precisely what you are talking about.

Most of the people on this forum are not ‘anti’s’ as I would define them, no matter how harsh their criticism might be. A few, however, are. I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to identify those and call them on their actions. Wouldn’t you do the same for a typical CARM poster?

dianaiad: No one is denying that persecution existed throughout history against many religions, not just Mormons.

I think the point is that there seems to be a “persecution” mindset by some Mormon Forum Members, that causes them to take offense and even lash out at those of us who disagree with what LDS Forum Members are saying here–on the Forum. Look at all the insults Zerinus has hurled at me, for example. You notice, I did not return in kind.

 

[Stephen168]

dianaiad: No one is denying that persecution existed throughout history against many religions, not just Mormons.

I think the point is that there seems to be a “persecution” mindset by some Mormon Forum Members, that causes them to take offense and even lash out at those of us who disagree with what LDS Forum Members are saying here–on the Forum. Look at all the insults Zerinus has hurled at me, for example. You notice, I did not return in kind.

I think the ‘lashing out’ stems from their inability to defend their faith in a rational manner. An irrational position sometimes can only be defended with an irrational response; “lashing out.” Persecution is just an excuse.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad: No one is denying that persecution existed throughout history against many religions, not just Mormons.

Yes they are. Those who put ‘persecution’ or ‘fact’ in quotes when referring to that persecution are in fact denying it. The person to whom I directed my post, Answersplease, was very clearly denying it:
“Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.”

The fact is, persecution happened. It was real. It was nasty, it was undeserved. It is still happening. It was just last year, in fact, that an entire community was raided and all the children removed from everybody living there–BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION. Even the children of monogamous marriages were taken. The courts have since sided with the Mormons in the community (they were not LDS, but a polygamous offshoot). Who knows what damage that persecution did to all the children involved?

I have personally had rocks thrown at me, had my husband’s funeral targeted, been spat at and refused a job BECAUSE OF MY RELIGION. If that’s not persecution, what is it?

I don’t call what you do ‘persecution,’ by the way. I think you are solidly on my ‘anti-’ list because of your debate style. It takes a little more than that to put you in ‘persecution’ mode.

I think the point is that there seems to be a “persecution” mindset by some Mormon Forum Members, that causes them to take offense and even lash out at those of us who disagree with what LDS Forum Members are saying here–on the Forum. Look at all the insults Zerinus has hurled at me, for example. You notice, I did not return in kind.

Excuse me, but I’ve been around quite awhile. I’m not being ‘told’ that I am persecuted because of my religion, I have personally experienced it. Persecution, to me, means that someone is treating me differently because of my religion; refusing service or employment, or attempting to harm me physically, emotionally or financially because of my beliefs. All that has happened to me. Personally.

It’s not a ‘mindset.’ It’s fact. Simply disagreeing with my beliefs is not persecution. Using fallacious debate tactics in order to do so is annoying, but not ‘persecution.’ “Lying for Jesus,” in other words, being willing to lie about our beliefs in order to ‘defeat’ us or keep others from learning what WE believe we believe–that’s persecution in its very mildest sense.

It seems to me that if the day is sunny and fine, then calling the sky ‘blue’ is a statement of fact, not a claim of victimhood against orange skies.

 

[Christian55]

Yes they are. Those who put ‘persecution’ or ‘fact’ in quotes when referring to that persecution are in fact denying it. The person to whom I directed my post, Answersplease, was very clearly denying it:
“Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.”

The fact is, persecution happened. It was real. It was nasty, it was undeserved. It is still happening. It was just last year, in fact, that an entire community was raided and all the children removed from everybody living there–BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGION. Even the children of monogamous marriages were taken. The courts have since sided with the Mormons in the community (they were not LDS, but a polygamous offshoot). Who knows what damage that persecution did to all the children involved?

I have personally had rocks thrown at me, had my husband’s funeral targeted, been spat at and refused a job BECAUSE OF MY RELIGION. If that’s not persecution, what is it?

I don’t call what you do ‘persecution,’ by the way. I think you are solidly on my ‘anti-’ list because of your debate style. It takes a little more than that to put you in ‘persecution’ mode.

Excuse me, but I’ve been around quite awhile. I’m not being ‘told’ that I am persecuted because of my religion, I have personally experienced it. Persecution, to me, means that someone is treating me differently because of my religion; refusing service or employment, or attempting to harm me physically, emotionally or financially because of my beliefs. All that has happened to me. Personally.

It’s not a ‘mindset.’ It’s fact. Simply disagreeing with my beliefs is not persecution. Using fallacious debate tactics in order to do so is annoying, but not ‘persecution.’ “Lying for Jesus,” in other words, being willing to lie about our beliefs in order to ‘defeat’ us or keep others from learning what WE believe we believe–that’s persecution in its very mildest sense.

It seems to me that if the day is sunny and fine, then calling the sky ‘blue’ is a statement of fact, not a claim of victimhood against orange skies.

dianaiad: I am truly sorry for what you have endured.

When I spoke of the persecution mindset of some Mormon Forum Members, I was referring to what is said on “the Forums.”

I may fiercely debate Mormon beliefs; I do quote your prophets; and I do find many of the Mormon beliefs disturbing—but I would never condone what has happened to you. The things that have been done to you and other Mormons is appalling.

We are called to love one another.

 

[Catholic20064]

dianaiad: I am truly sorry for what you have endured.

When I spoke of the persecution mindset of some Mormon Forum Members, I was referring to what is said on “the Forums.”

I may fiercely debate Mormon beliefs; I do quote your prophets; and I do find many of the Mormon beliefs disturbing—but I would never condone what has happened to you. The things that have been done to you and other Mormons is appalling.

We are called to love one another.

It is a fact of life that many people don’t accept people who are different. Ask non-Mormons in Utah how they are often treated by Mormons and you will be able to see this is true. One form of persecution doesn’t justify the other form of persecution, but it does seem to me that Mormons are quick to point to persecution as a proof their religion is true.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In UT, yes, this is the case. I’ve been in hiring meetings where the all-Mormon group is discussing that they will hire only Mormons. I’ve been in interviews where the person being hired makes sure to point out their mormon missionary service, that they put on their resume (and has nothing to do with the position). And then there’s the politics, where, especially in small town Utah, if you are not Mormon, you may as well not bother to run for anything political. Let’s see, one teacher in a rural area, eventually fired because she was a “witch”, ie, not Mormon (this happened within the last five years or so). Being a Mormon is part of the credentials of doing business in Utah. Businesses hiring only people from “the ward”. Catholic children taunted at public schools for the sacramentals (medals, crosses, crucifixes) they wear. PTA’s consisting of Mormon women only, who all happen to be in the same ward. Drawing school boundry lines to match ward boundry lines. etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn’t call it persecuting non-Mormons, discriminating against us, yes. Insular, exclusive…definitely.

 

[Christian55]

ParkerD:

I appreciate all the work you put into answering my questions–in your Posts 285 & 286. I have great respect for you and the way you responded.

I do believe you are sincere in your faith and your beliefs.

I want to study the things you wrote and provide comments.

Christian55

 

[dianaiad]

It is a fact of life that many people don’t accept people who are different. Ask non-Mormons in Utah how they are often treated by Mormons and you will be able to see this is true. One form of persecution doesn’t justify the other form of persecution, but it does seem to me that Mormons are quick to point to persecution as a proof their religion is true.

(snort)

THAT, my friend, is universal. Catholics are also quick to point to the early Christian martyrs (and more recent persecution against their own faith) as ‘proof’ that their faith is true. Everybody does it…I’ve never met a believer who did not. It is a comfort to the victim of persecution to see it as evidence that his belief is 'true…" because of course no good people would engage in it; only evil people could. Evil must oppose good–so if evil is active, the target MUST, then, be righteous and good.

Of course, this idea also means that the persecutors cannot admit that what they are doing is indeed persecution, because they buy into the same mindset; persecution only happens to the righteous and the truthful, and only evil people actually persecute others. So…the persecutors will mock and deride the targets, calling them whiners or liars for pointing out the acts of persecution they have experienced, or saying that the persecution is actually ‘justice’ or 'brought upon themselves."

The fact is, Mormons have been, and still are, persecuted. So are Quakers, Catholics, Presbyterians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Wiccans, Lutherans, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, Episcopalians, Greek Orthodox, Jews…everybody who is seen as different. It happens. It doesn’t prove that any of these beliefs are more truthful than any other—it just proves that people suck.

You cannot blame those who are persecuted for believing that their suffering somehow validates their beliefs; after all, what comfort is there in the thought that all that…stuff…is simply the result of other people being terminal @#$holes? When you hurt, you want to think that your pain makes it about you–but it’s not. It’s about the one inflicting it. HIS insecurities. HER doubts. HIS wish to force you to abide by his beliefs.

…as for the Mormon clique/mindset…of course they are. Get a grip, guys. These people were herded and driven from one place to another, completely driven out of the nation they supported and loved (and worked like crazy to get associated with again…I’ve never quite figured out why, come to think of that) and then, having finally found some privacy and peace, had that nation send, quite literally, half their armed forces against them. Most of the Utahns are less than two generations from being in that situation. My grandfather remembered some of it. So we have finally found, and grown into, cultures that support us and our beliefs–and now other people come in with their noses in the air, mocking us for our dietary practices, our worship practices, our beliefs and our politics; they don’t dress like us, behave like us—and they AREN’T US. Mormons who have lived in Mormon culture all their lives don’t know what to do with them.

Exactly the way nobody in Lancaster knew what to do with me when my family moved here way back in the 1960’s, and everybody was either Baptist or Catholic. They had enough problems with each other–they had NO clue what to do with a Mormon.

It’s not a factor of religion; it’s a community/culture thing, and is common to all one religion/one culture area. People get comfortable, and don’t know what to do with variances. It’s not the best way to be; I understand it, but I do believe it needs shaking up.

Now me, I like variety. I could move back to northern Utah, and be one of the ‘founding family’ members…and slip right into the culture. I could–yet I couldn’t. The beliefs of the church sustain me, but the culture?

That would drive me buggy in four weeks–and that’s when I would be one of the privileged elite because of my family. We have the oldest cemetery sites, y’see.

I know the difference between religious beliefs and culture. Do you?

 

[dianaiad]

In UT, yes, this is the case. I’ve been in hiring meetings where the all-Mormon group is discussing that they will hire only Mormons. I’ve been in interviews where the person being hired makes sure to point out their mormon missionary service, that they put on their resume (and has nothing to do with the position). And then there’s the politics, where, especially in small town Utah, if you are not Mormon, you may as well not bother to run for anything political. Let’s see, one teacher in a rural area, eventually fired because she was a “witch”, ie, not Mormon (this happened within the last five years or so). Being a Mormon is part of the credentials of doing business in Utah. Businesses hiring only people from “the ward”. Catholic children taunted at public schools for the sacramentals (medals, crosses, crucifixes) they wear. PTA’s consisting of Mormon women only, who all happen to be in the same ward. Drawing school boundry lines to match ward boundry lines. etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn’t call it persecuting non-Mormons, discriminating against us, yes. Insular, exclusive…definitely.

Yes, it’s all of that.

And it happens precisely that same way in all Catholic areas, or all Baptist areas. It’s not good, but let’s face it, Rebecca–all of Utah was treated as a ghetto–shoved the Mormons in there to get them away from the ‘good’ people, then go after them to make them keep their place. It’s not difficult to understand that once put there they would act to defend their own culture against others.

It is a mindset that desperately needs shaking up, and it is getting better. It’s one of the reasons we send our young people out on missions, y’know; to get them to know people of different beliefs and cultures and bring understanding home with them.