Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, it’s all of that.

And it happens precisely that same way in all Catholic areas, or all Baptist areas. It’s not good, but let’s face it, Rebecca–all of Utah was treated as a ghetto–shoved the Mormons in there to get them away from the ‘good’ people, then go after them to make them keep their place. It’s not difficult to understand that once put there they would act to defend their own culture against others.

Oh come on, this is more than ridiculous. No one shoved Mormons into UT, your Brigham Young lead his people here, like a modern Moses, remember? “This Is the Place”? It was Young who declared all new converts should move to Utah, not the other way around. Zion in the mountains? Ring any bells? You have some sort of revisionist history going on, to what purpose, I don’t know.

It is a mindset that desperately needs shaking up, and it is getting better. It’s one of the reasons we send our young people out on missions, y’know; to get them to know people of different beliefs and cultures and bring understanding home with them.

The RMs I know didn’t get much of a cultural experience. All the returned missionaries I talk to say how much they disliked being out of the US and couldn’t wait to get back to Utah, aka, “The Ghetto”.

 

[Stephen168]

all Catholic areas?

 

[dianaiad]

Oh come on, this is more than ridiculous. No one shoved Mormons into UT,

May I refer you to the Extermination Order signed by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27, 1838—that directed that the Mormons be 'driven from the state or exterminated." and was carried out after Joseph Smith was murdered? An order, by the way, that was not rescinded until June 25, 1976. The choice of destinations was limited; Utah was about the only place left TO go, but go they had to, at gun point and upon pain of death; any Mormon caught in Missouri after this was enacted could be shot on sight: man, woman or child, without consequence.

C’mon, Rebecca. I know you have a problem with the Mormon version of history, but don’t let your own prejudices blind you to absolute historical fact. Yes, Brigham Young was a 'modern Moses…" and it is in very large part due to him that the Mormons survived the trip and prospered in their new land; a land, by the way, that nobody else wanted.
RebeccaJ;5447625:

your Brigham Young lead his people here, like a modern Moses, remember? “This Is the Place”? It was Young who declared all new converts should move to Utah, not the other way around. Zion in the mountains? Ring any bells? You have some sort of revisionist history going on, to what purpose, I don’t know.

The RMs I know didn’t get much of a cultural experience. All the returned missionaries I talk to say how much they disliked being out of the US and couldn’t wait to get back to Utah, aka, “The Ghetto”.

There’s an old joke from my childhood; I’ll bet you remember it.

A man reported to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, only to be told that he didn’t qualify for heaven; he had to go to hell. He was pointed in the proper direction, and off the man went, despairing. As he expected, the further downhill he went, the dryer, hotter and more miserable his surroundings became. However, as he progressed, he found that the air was growing sweeter, the land around him greener and more lush; there were trees and streams, laughing people working in the fields, full harvests and plenty. Confused, he turned around and walked back, looking for the wrong turn he must have taken. He found none, and shortly he was back at the Pearly Gates. St. Peter asked him why he was back; didn’t he know where he was supposed to go?

The sinner told St. Peter what he had seen, and growling, St. Peter threw down his quill pen and started walking down the hill beside the sinner. As the sinner had earlier found, St. Peter also saw the green fields and laughing people, the plenteous harvests and sweet breezes. Throwing up his hands, St. Peter turned around and stomped up the hill towards his gates again, grumbling to himself.

“Damn Mormons are irrigating again…”

THAT’S what the Mormons found. Desert, dry, inhospitable desert made fertile through hard work. The saints were no strangers to, nor were they afraid of, that.

Here is another viewpoint on that, along with the texts of that Extermination order (Missouri Executive Order 44) and the text rescinding that order in 1976, along with the text of the Illinois declaration of apology to the Mormons for their part in the whole thing.

Rebecca, you don’t like us. I get it. You don’t agree with our beliefs. I get it. That does not invalidate the history though, any more than the fact that some people don’t like Jews invalidates the Holocaust, or that because some people don’t think Catholics are Christian means that no Catholic was ever persecuted.

It happened. It was real.

Deal with it.

 

[guanophore]

If we look at all the quotes you’ve posted here, we see the following themes:

Adam was Michael, the Archangel, who was part of a quorum of three who helped make and organize this world. He had power in the heavens in the pre-mortal world, and was entrusted with special responsibilities, differently than Christ was entrusted with a mission on earth, but important nonetheless.

He was in the Garden of Eden with a body that was conceived by Heavenly Father, and Heavenly Father walked and talked with him in the Garden of Eden. He became the father of the human family after he had fallen by partaking of the forbidden fruit. He and Eve had mortal children.

Christ was begotten by Heavenly Father, not by the Holy Ghost. (Note: it was by the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon or overshadowing Mary.)

Because Adam holds priesthood keys as the progenitor of the human race and one entrusted by God with special responsibilities relating to his entire posterity, he will exercise those keys in conjunction with Jesus Christ and the original twelve apostles (replacing Judas with Matthias) to stand at the gate of “everlasting life” in the capacity of a judge and a righteous first father, to present his righteous posterity to Christ who in turn will present them to God the Father, Christ having ransomed them from the effects of their sins (including the first sin by Adam and Eve of partaking of the forbidden fruit).

… Michael was the Archangel …They encouraged us as our super-leaders …

You know, I learn something new every day on this board! This reads a lot like Irenaeus early works Adversus Haerasies.

 

[RebeccaJ]

May I refer you to the Extermination Order signed by Governor Lilburn W. Boggs on October 27, 1838—that directed that the Mormons be 'driven from the state or exterminated."

Missouri is one state, as you will note, lots of Mormons went other places besides Utah, California being popular. The Strangites went north. A few, like Emma and her children stuck around in Nauvoo…that would be, the husband and children of Joseph Smith. What of your extermination order?

As to Utah:

‘The Saints’ president and prophet, Brigham Young, had been ill for several days and did not see the valley until 23 July. His manuscript history recounts: “We ascended and crossed over Big Mountain, when on its summit I directed Elder [Wilford] Woodruff, who kindly tendered me the use of his carriage, to turn the same half way round, so I could have a view of a portion of Salt Lake Valley. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon me and hovered over the valley, and I felt that there the Saints would find protection and safety. [p.6] We descended and encamped at the foot of the Little Mountain.”’

'Writing in his diary for 21 July, Pratt reported, “[We] ascended this hill, from the top of which [was] a broad open valley.… We could not refrain from a shout of joy which almost involuntarily escaped from our lips the moment this grand and lovely scenery was within our view.”

Apostle Woodruff penned a more detailed account the following day, when Young and he came in full view of the valley:

                                                          We gazed with wonder and admiration upon the vast rich, fertile valley which lay for about 25 miles in length and 16 miles in width, clothed with the heaviest garb of green vegetation in the midst of which lay a large lake of salt water … Our hearts were surely made glad … to gaze upon a valley of such vast extent and entirely surrounded with a perfect chain of everlasting hills and mountains covered with eternal snows … presenting at one view the grandest and most sublime scenery probably that could be obtained on the globe.
                                
                         But the most memorable reaction was Thomas Bullock's simple outburst, "I could not help shouting 'hurra, hurra, hurra, here's my home at last'—the sky is very clear, the air is delightful, and all together looks glorious."'

Comparing this to a ghetto and the extermination order of Jews in WWII is not only disingenuous, it is ridiculous, and dishonest.

 

[guanophore]

The words “Ancient of days” have been changed in the version you asked me to quote from, to “one most Venerable”. I see no reason to arm wrestle over the difference in meaning. “Ancient of days” has much deeper meaning in the context, but as noted in Daniel 12, the meaning would be hidden, such that only “the wise shall understand.”

The meaning of Jude 6 has also been changed significantly in the translation you asked to be used. Jude 6 talks about the “angels who kept not their first estate.” The first estate was the pre-mortal life, where occurred the war in Heaven talked about in Revelation 12:7.

This thread has been very educational for me. I am amazed at the similarities between Mormonism and the early Gnostics.

 

[dianaiad]

Missouri is one state, as you will note, lots of Mormons went other places besides Utah, California being popular. The Strangites went north. A few, like Emma and her children stuck around in Nauvoo…that would be, the husband and children of Joseph Smith. What of your extermination order?

“What of [my] extermination order?”

Rebecca, I find that question difficult to believe. I truly do. What exactly is it you are trying to do with it—say, oh, well, since not everybody went to Utah that’s OK then? Or…“since people COULD stay, if they renounced the faith of the folks the Extermination Order referred to, that’s OK then, and not really a forcing out of anybody else?”

As to Utah:

‘The Saints’ president and prophet, Brigham Young, had been ill for several days and did not see the valley until 23 July. His manuscript history recounts: “We ascended and crossed over Big Mountain, when on its summit I directed Elder [Wilford] Woodruff, who kindly tendered me the use of his carriage, to turn the same half way round, so I could have a view of a portion of Salt Lake Valley. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon me and hovered over the valley, and I felt that there the Saints would find protection and safety. [p.6] We descended and encamped at the foot of the Little Mountain.”’

'Writing in his diary for 21 July, Pratt reported, “[We] ascended this hill, from the top of which [was] a broad open valley.… We could not refrain from a shout of joy which almost involuntarily escaped from our lips the moment this grand and lovely scenery was within our view.”

Apostle Woodruff penned a more detailed account the following day, when Young and he came in full view of the valley:

                                                          We gazed with wonder and admiration upon the vast rich, fertile valley which lay for about 25 miles in length and 16 miles in width, clothed with the heaviest garb of green vegetation in the midst of which lay a large lake of salt water … Our hearts were surely made glad … to gaze upon a valley of such vast extent and entirely surrounded with a perfect chain of everlasting hills and mountains covered with eternal snows … presenting at one view the grandest and most sublime scenery probably that could be obtained on the globe.
                                
                         But the most memorable reaction was Thomas Bullock's simple outburst, "I could not help shouting 'hurra, hurra, hurra, here's my home at last'—the sky is very clear, the air is delightful, and all together looks glorious."'

Comparing this to a ghetto and the extermination order of Jews in WWII is not only disingenuous, it is ridiculous, and dishonest.

Really? Actually, I’m not comparing the extermination order of Gov. Boggs to the Holocaust, though the intent was pretty much the same. I am comparing your reaction to it to those who, because they dislike the Jews, deny that the Holocaust actually happened.

Both happened. Sorry, Rebecca, but your dislike for the targets of one of them does not make it disappear from history, any more than the Holocaust deniers of today, because of their disdain for the Jews, make all the millenia of persecution the Jews have faced disappear.

As to comparing the two? Actually, I could honestly compare–not the horrors of the ovens–but the forced move of the Jews from their homes to ghettos with no thought for the deprivations faced by the Jews involved—yeah, I’d compare that. No matter WHAT the Salt Lake Valley looked like to trail weary pioneers (including Brigham Young who was lying ill in a wagon) what they saw was considerably more promise than fact. In no way could any sane person compare what a desert valley dominated by a dead salt sea compare to fertile Mississippi river valley land.

In no way could the harsh winters and searing summers experienced in Utah compare to the homes and fertile farms those people were forced to leave at the point of an armed militia and the promise that any who stayed were fair game for shooting.

Comparing the persecution the Jews faced with that the early Mormons faced is unequal in the sheer magnitude of the deaths and suffering involved–but only in that. The intent was the same; if you think for one minute that Boggs, et.all wouldn’t have gleefully murdered each and every Mormon who dared to stick around, you weren’t paying attention in history…and you haven’t actually READ that Extermination Order.

…and it isn’t 'Mine," Rebecca. It’s yours. Just because you disagree with the doctrine, do not disparage the suffering and courage of your ancestors and their faith.

 

[dianaiad]

This thread has been very educational for me. I am amazed at the similarities between Mormonism and the early Gnostics.

Oh, Gee whiz, I wonder what y’all did with those early gnostics?

 

[RebeccaJ]

“What of [my] extermination order?”

Rebecca, I find that question difficult to believe. I truly do. What exactly is it you are trying to do with it—say, oh, well, since not everybody went to Utah that’s OK then? Or…“since people COULD stay, if they renounced the faith of the folks the Extermination Order referred to, that’s OK then, and not really a forcing out of anybody else?”

No one was forced to leave, as evidenced by the Mormons that remained behind, who have decendents that still live in the area. That was your original claim, Utah is a ghetto and mormons were forced into it. And you have now gone off on some you-don’t-appreciate-mormon-sorrows, just like holocaust deniers. That personal attack appearing again.

You really are a drama queen.

 

[zaffiroborant]

“What of [my] extermination order?”

Rebecca, I find that question difficult to believe. I truly do. What exactly is it you are trying to do with it—say, oh, well, since not everybody went to Utah that’s OK then? Or…“since people COULD stay, if they renounced the faith of the folks the Extermination Order referred to, that’s OK then, and not really a forcing out of anybody else?”


Really? Actually, I’m not comparing the extermination order of Gov. Boggs to the Holocaust, though the intent was pretty much the same. I am comparing your reaction to it to those who, because they dislike the Jews, deny that the Holocaust actually happened.

Both happened. Sorry, Rebecca, but your dislike for the targets of one of them does not make it disappear from history, any more than the Holocaust deniers of today, because of their disdain for the Jews, make all the millenia of persecution the Jews have faced disappear.

As to comparing the two? Actually, I could honestly compare–not the horrors of the ovens–but the forced move of the Jews from their homes to ghettos with no thought for the deprivations faced by the Jews involved—yeah, I’d compare that. No matter WHAT the Salt Lake Valley looked like to trail weary pioneers (including Brigham Young who was lying ill in a wagon) what they saw was considerably more promise than fact. In no way could any sane person compare what a desert valley dominated by a dead salt sea compare to fertile Mississippi river valley land.

In no way could the harsh winters and searing summers experienced in Utah compare to the homes and fertile farms those people were forced to leave at the point of an armed militia and the promise that any who stayed were fair game for shooting.

Comparing the persecution the Jews faced with that the early Mormons faced is unequal in the sheer magnitude of the deaths and suffering involved–but only in that. The intent was the same; if you think for one minute that Boggs, et.all wouldn’t have gleefully murdered each and every Mormon who dared to stick around, you weren’t paying attention in history…and you haven’t actually READ that Extermination Order.

…and it isn’t 'Mine," Rebecca. It’s yours. Just because you disagree with the doctrine, do not disparage the suffering and courage of your ancestors and their faith.

But they didn’t leave to Utah from Boggs and the extermination order right, they left from Illinois where Boggs couldn’t gleefully murder everyone who stayed behind. And it seems those who stayed behind in Illinois weren’t gleefully murdered??

 

[ParkerD]

But they didn’t leave to Utah from Boggs and the extermination order right, they left from Illinois where Boggs couldn’t gleefully murder everyone who stayed behind. And it seems those who stayed behind in Illinois weren’t gleefully murdered??

One of the troubling things in history about the “extermination order” is that by the fact of the Mormons having to abandon their property, which was improved property, the local people could take over the property under the laws then in place. The whole business was dishonest and a scheme against honest, hard-working people.

 

[Answersplease]

Post #283

"Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the “fact” that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches."

Post #284

The above quote is from “Mormon Stumpers”,

catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

Yes they are. Those who put ‘persecution’ or ‘fact’ in quotes when referring to that persecution are in fact denying it. The person to whom I directed my post, Answersplease, was very clearly denying it:

I was quoting an article from this website Catholic Answers “Mormon Stumpers”.
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

Get your “facts” straight before you try to slander me, just like Christian55 was slandered.

But then you have a history of distorting facts don’t you? Did you " goof " again?

My posts were made in succession one right after the other, #283 and #284.
I’m pretty sure you saw the second post but you chose to ignore it just so you could make me look bad.

How very “kind” of you.

 

[Christian55]

I’ve read all the posts this morning. There have been comparisons of the Mormon persecution to the Jewish persecution.

I have to wonder how the Mormon Church would take names of the Jews, who died in the Holocaust, and perform posthumous Baptisms in the Mormon Temple. The Jews are still struggling with this issue. The Mormon Church agreed to stop the practice, but has not been able to keep their agreement.

To me, this seems like the worst sort of injury. These Jews died because they were Jews. They suffered incomprehensible persecution. Then the Mormon Church took their names and Baptized them by proxy in the Mormon Temple. Isn’t this the ultimate persecution–to take the names of those persecuted and slaughtered for their faith; and then Baptize them into the Mormon Church?

 

[guanophore]

Unique of all “Christian” religions–and I use the term loosely in that Mormonism is a form of gnosticism which merely uses Christian terminology–the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid.

You know, I think you are right. I did not realize this before reading this thread, but the elements in common with early Gnosticism are amazing. What is also amazing is that Gnosticism was rampant during the time when the Mormons say that the “great apostasy” occurred.

 

[ParkerD]

I’ve read all the posts this morning. There have been comparisons of the Mormon persecution to the Jewish persecution.

I have to wonder how the Mormon Church would take names of the Jews, who died in the Holocaust, and perform posthumous Baptisms in the Mormon Temple. The Jews are still struggling with this issue. The Mormon Church agreed to stop the practice, but has not been able to keep their agreement.

To me, this seems like the worst sort of injury. These Jews died because they were Jews. They suffered incomprehensible persecution. Then the Mormon Church took their names and Baptized them by proxy in the Mormon Temple. Isn’t this the ultimate persecution–to take the names of those persecuted and slaughtered for their faith; and then Baptize them into the Mormon Church?

Christian55,
Your post demonstrates a lack of understanding, such that I really don’t think you were ever very active in the LDS church. If so, you would know that the “Mormon Church” didn’t “take their names and baptize them by proxy”. Individual people made a decision on their own to submit a name to the temple for the temple work. Some people feel like the Jews who died in that horrible and horrific act have a “free gift” of salvation. Perhaps they don’t need Christian baptism at all. (I personally don’t know, and wouldn’t want to make that call.) But if they do in order to receive the Holy Spirit and the peace and rejoicing that it brings, then why would you want to deprive them of that? (Not that I have submitted any Jews for temple work. I have submitted work for my own ancestors, none of whom were Jews or Catholics.)

You act in this post as though the Mormon Church should be able to control every single thing done by every single member. Whatever happened to agency, under that assumption? Agency is both a God-given right and a God-given responsibility to use it wisely. But you choose, I choose, we should not be forced into what we do or don’t do.

 

[dianaiad]

No one was forced to leave, as evidenced by the Mormons that remained behind, who have decendents that still live in the area. That was your original claim, Utah is a ghetto and mormons were forced into it. And you have now gone off on some you-don’t-appreciate-mormon-sorrows, just like holocaust deniers. That personal attack appearing again.

You really are a drama queen.

Irony, doncha love it? I have not personally attacked you in any way, but you claim I have, and then end with a very definite personal insult.

Rebecca, did you happen to actually READ the official statements of Missouri and Illinois, made in 1976 and 2004 (both of which I posted) which acknowledge and apologize for precisely what I am claiming happened?

Drama queen or not, it happened. Sorry about that, but your dislike for Mormonism does not mean that it didn’t happen, any more than my faith in my own beliefs means that the MMM didn’t happen.

History may suck, but…sorry…it happened.

 

[dianaiad]

But they didn’t leave to Utah from Boggs and the extermination order right, they left from Illinois where Boggs couldn’t gleefully murder everyone who stayed behind. And it seems those who stayed behind in Illinois weren’t gleefully murdered??

Go back and read the apology from the state of Illinois for their part in the whole thing, made in 2004.

 

[Christian55]

I’ve read all the posts this morning. There have been comparisons of the Mormon persecution to the Jewish persecution.

I have to wonder how the Mormon Church would take names of the Jews, who died in the Holocaust, and perform posthumous Baptisms in the Mormon Temple. The Jews are still struggling with this issue. The Mormon Church agreed to stop the practice, but has not been able to keep their agreement.

To me, this seems like the worst sort of injury. These Jews died because they were Jews. They suffered incomprehensible persecution. Then the Mormon Church took their names and Baptized them by proxy in the Mormon Temple. Isn’t this the ultimate persecution–to take the names of those persecuted and slaughtered for their faith; and then Baptize them into the Mormon Church?

Christian55, Your post demonstrates a lack of understanding, such that I really don’t think you were ever

very active in the LDS church.

You are right about this ParkerD. As soon as I discovered what Mormons really believe, I left the church. The deception Mormons use to Proselytize would require a Forum Thread of its own.

If so, you would know that the “Mormon Church” didn’t “take their names and baptize them by proxy”. Individual people made a decision on their own to submit a name to the temple for the temple work.

Where have you been ParkerD? This statement is not true.

Some people feel like the Jews who died in that horrible and horrific act have a “free gift” of salvation. Perhaps they don’t need Christian baptism at all. (I personally don’t know, and wouldn’t want to make that call.) But if they do in order to receive the Holy Spirit and the peace and rejoicing that it brings, then why would you want to deprive them of that? (Not that I have submitted any Jews for temple work. I have submitted work for my own ancestors, none of whom were Jews or Catholics.)

I can’t believe what you are saying here. Do you really think the Jewish people would agree with you on this?

You act in this post as though the Mormon Church should be able to control every single thing done by every single member. Whatever happened to agency, under that assumption? Agency is both a God-given right and a God-given responsibility to use it wisely. But you choose, I choose, we should not be forced into what we do or don’t do.

ParkerD: the issue is far bigger than this. Agreements were made between the Mormon Church and the Jews to stop the Mormon posthumous baptism of Jews, but the Mormons can’t seem to keep the agreement.

Please follow these two links and get up to speed on the subject. Then we can discuss this further if you wish:

Vatican Warns of Mormon ‘Baptism of the Dead,’ By Chaz Muth, 5/3/2008
Link: catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27825

The Issue of The Mormon Baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims And Other Jewish Dead
jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html

*"The Mormon/Jewish Controversy: This web page chronicles the controversy between members of the Jewish faith and of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons have been criticized in recent years for the practice of posthumously baptizing thousands of deceased Jews (among them Holocaust victims) and those of other faiths. The wrongful posthumous baptism of Jewish dead continues, despite denials by the Mormon leadership. In their missionary zeal, Mormons continue their wrongful baptism of Jews, attempting to convince people (dead or alive) from other religions to convert. Jewish leaders have called the practice arrogant and said it is disrespectful to the dead, especially Holocaust victims.

Mormons are hijacking history. In a hundred years who will know the true facts about you and your heritage? Who will know anything about your family? No one. Very possibly no one! Because in a hundred years the record will apparently show that they were allegedly converts without making clear that it was by no act of their own."*

 

[zaffiroborant]

Go back and read the apology from the state of Illinois for their part in the whole thing, made in 2004.

Nothing in there about gleefully murdering those who didn’t leave.

 

[dianaiad]

Nothing in there about gleefully murdering those who didn’t leave.

Read it again. True, the word ‘gleeful’ doesn’t appear…