K
kimmielittle
Guest
Hiyas
Thank you for helping me.
Didn’t Mr Smith say something like this though; "No one has done more for religion…not Jesus not Muhammad,… kimmie phrased of course ]
- Status
Thank you for helping me.
Didn’t Mr Smith say something like this though; "No one has done more for religion…not Jesus not Muhammad,… kimmie phrased of course ]
S
Sunstone
Guest
No problem.Hiyas
Thank you for helping me.
Didn’t Mr Smith say something like this though; "No one has done more for religion…not Jesus not Muhammad,… kimmie phrased of course ]
Perhaps you are thinking of the famous statement Joseph Smith made when the Mormons were being run out of Missouri:
“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’"
Is that what you were thinking of?
S
Sunstone
Guest
More likely you’re thinking of this quote, from Volume 6 of the Documentary History of the Church:Hiyas
Thank you for helping me.
Didn’t Mr Smith say something like this though; "No one has done more for religion…not Jesus not Muhammad,… kimmie phrased of course ]
“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Joseph is exhibiting hubris here.
K
kimmielittle
Guest
Yeppers!! That’s it
T
TheosisM
Guest
And I think that it’s important to realize that for those of us that “use” the cross and/or crucifix, they are important to us because of what they represent. This is the importance of symbolism, of statues and icons in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy). Symbols are not important in and of themselves, but because of the Reality that they signify. Our “focus” (if one can call it that) on the cross does terminate in the physical object, but goes beyond it to what it represents (and the Person whose life is tied to it, and our salvational life as well).
T
TheosisM
Guest
And again, if others have not read this article, it provides an interesting perspective on historical Mormon attitudes towards the cross (which may help understand attempts at rationalizing “cross aversion”):
mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/doctrine_discussion/?id=10632
mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/doctrine_discussion/?id=10632
P
peary
Guest
P
Publisher
Guest
It should terminate in the physical object…and it can only go Beyond when it is tied to the Person who’s life was given for us…let us not make the symbol of shame…a symbol of shame by making it an object of contention…focus on the Reality of the Cross Experience.
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
I am different in that, it’s ok.
I love it when the LDS knock on my door. I can’t wait to sit down and speak to them about Jesus. About our faith… everything. The last time two missionaries knocked on my door we drove to my church and I gave them a tour.
I gave them a cross without the Christ on it, but it had all the Scriptures about it branded on it. I said I know you would not have this, but will you accept it as a gift from me with nothing but pure intentions. The eldest said yes we would love to have it.
It is a good thing to have tangable things that when we look upon them we think of Jesus. I find myself holding onto my cross as I go to bed and when I wake in the morning. It helps a lot. And making the sign of the Cross also helps. Once I began to do it 11 years ago I have nevr looked back. It is awsome!
This is some really good scriptures from the Old and New Testement.
***…and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.” ***
Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered. Numbers 21: 5-10
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:14-16
C
cradlecatholic
Guest
Some scripture passages that support an emphasis on the crucifixion:
1 Cor 1
[21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
[22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
[23] but **we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
[24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. **
[25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Cor 2
[2] For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1 Cor 1
[21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
[22] For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
[23] but **we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
[24] but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. **
[25] For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Cor 2
[2] For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Just scanned over half the post and these things hit me. For what its worth I would love to comment on these thoughts.
**Xavirlives **
I’ve always though an empty tomb would be a better representation of Christianity, but how do you represent that easy?
*I have heard this and have really put some thought into it. Here is how I would think about the empty tomb. Think of your own suffering, have you lost a loved one? Maybe your young and have lost a treasured pet. Maybe you don’t fit in and have feelings of depression, whatever it is or was or will be in your future. Who helped Jesus up when he fell the first time because of the weight of His Cross for each of us? Who was there to wipe the blood and sweat from His face when He fell a second time?…a third time? Who gave no regard to their own life when they gave him a drink of water? Who stood under the Cross as he slipped away? It would be easier to wait next to the tomb for Him to rise would it not? Its pain and suffering that transforms us, but who wants pain and suffering? Something to think about. *
**Xavirlives **
**Lots of innocent people died on the cross. Only one rose from the grave. **
But this is not just any person Xavirlives. We start with the premise that Jesus is our Creator, our God died for us, ransomed Himself for us. Our sins died on the Cross in Jesus, we are all guilty in His Crucifixion for us. Only God could take all the sins in the world, yours and mine and have them all nailed to the cross. It reminds me of the story in the Old Testament where it says “oh Jerusalem you will receive double for your sins” When I first read that I thought that’s mean! Then I learned that there was a time of year when those who owed great debts had them forgiven by the one they owed this great debt to. They would write down the sins that would be forgiven then fold it over, double it over and nail it on the door post of the one who sinned against them, forgiving them of their debt. Sound familiar?
Marie5890
**That was pretty much the attitude I recall when I was LDS. Very few women even felt comfortable with wearing a piece of jewlry in the form of one. You could see one on occasion but it tended to raise an eyebrow by others. **
I cant help but wonder if there is an subconscious idea of it being a symbol of all other denominations, both Catholic and Prodestant, all “not the true church” so it was a form of rejecting all others??
*I think that definitely has a lot to do with it. But mainly rejecting the Catholic faith. They have to set themselves apart. At the same time Satan can not stand the Cross as it is precisely where he was defeated in time, a reminder of a God who offered no resistance to satans earthly power, showing Him that for God his power has no power over the very God that created him as well. He can not kill God, if we are with Jesus Satan has no power over us as well. The cross drives the devil crazy! The cross is our porthole home. To die with Jesus so we can be raised n Him by Him. *
Christine77
**Christ’s suffering and his passion is the very crux of Christianity. How could anyone ignore the crucifix? Jesus suffered and died so that mankind could be saved. I think one of the most beautiful and moving things about the Catholic Church is the stations of the cross, it reminds us what Jesus had to go through. Particularily deep is the Good Friday service where the priest points out each station as we kneel and pray in response. **
*They ignore it because they don’t understand it. It is the crux of Christianity. Jesus was born to die for each of us. When Mormons say they just focus on the resurrection or empty tomb. It really is innocence I believe. Its like a talking point that they have been told to use, and to not think to much about it. They just go with it and I don’t think they really delve deep into it. They simply have a program that if they follow all will be well, why focus on the Passion of Christ. *
*The Holy Days really helped me connect when I was learning the Catholic faith. I agree with everything you have written. Its so core to our spirituality. *
*10 years ago my wife started bawling during the Good Friday service. She had been a cradle Catholic and on this night it really struck her. That Jesus died for Her personally, not the other poor sinner, it became hers. The person who was reading the scriptures, the passion of Christ also took a fall when he spoke the words “it is finished” he began to cry as well. He said he was embarrassed; (pride) yet he touched so many other souls who also joined in with tears. Where else are you going to get that but in Christianity? We have the opportunity to be with Jesus at His birth, walk beside Him as He teaches us, walk with Him to Jerusalem, help him help us in our own suffering, be with Him at the Crucifixion under the Cross with Mary, John, and all the Saints and Angels in heaven, cry together, then live in the light of His resurrection. *
**Xavirlives **
I’ve always though an empty tomb would be a better representation of Christianity, but how do you represent that easy?
*I have heard this and have really put some thought into it. Here is how I would think about the empty tomb. Think of your own suffering, have you lost a loved one? Maybe your young and have lost a treasured pet. Maybe you don’t fit in and have feelings of depression, whatever it is or was or will be in your future. Who helped Jesus up when he fell the first time because of the weight of His Cross for each of us? Who was there to wipe the blood and sweat from His face when He fell a second time?…a third time? Who gave no regard to their own life when they gave him a drink of water? Who stood under the Cross as he slipped away? It would be easier to wait next to the tomb for Him to rise would it not? Its pain and suffering that transforms us, but who wants pain and suffering? Something to think about. *
**Xavirlives **
**Lots of innocent people died on the cross. Only one rose from the grave. **
But this is not just any person Xavirlives. We start with the premise that Jesus is our Creator, our God died for us, ransomed Himself for us. Our sins died on the Cross in Jesus, we are all guilty in His Crucifixion for us. Only God could take all the sins in the world, yours and mine and have them all nailed to the cross. It reminds me of the story in the Old Testament where it says “oh Jerusalem you will receive double for your sins” When I first read that I thought that’s mean! Then I learned that there was a time of year when those who owed great debts had them forgiven by the one they owed this great debt to. They would write down the sins that would be forgiven then fold it over, double it over and nail it on the door post of the one who sinned against them, forgiving them of their debt. Sound familiar?
Marie5890
**That was pretty much the attitude I recall when I was LDS. Very few women even felt comfortable with wearing a piece of jewlry in the form of one. You could see one on occasion but it tended to raise an eyebrow by others. **
I cant help but wonder if there is an subconscious idea of it being a symbol of all other denominations, both Catholic and Prodestant, all “not the true church” so it was a form of rejecting all others??
*I think that definitely has a lot to do with it. But mainly rejecting the Catholic faith. They have to set themselves apart. At the same time Satan can not stand the Cross as it is precisely where he was defeated in time, a reminder of a God who offered no resistance to satans earthly power, showing Him that for God his power has no power over the very God that created him as well. He can not kill God, if we are with Jesus Satan has no power over us as well. The cross drives the devil crazy! The cross is our porthole home. To die with Jesus so we can be raised n Him by Him. *
Christine77
**Christ’s suffering and his passion is the very crux of Christianity. How could anyone ignore the crucifix? Jesus suffered and died so that mankind could be saved. I think one of the most beautiful and moving things about the Catholic Church is the stations of the cross, it reminds us what Jesus had to go through. Particularily deep is the Good Friday service where the priest points out each station as we kneel and pray in response. **
*They ignore it because they don’t understand it. It is the crux of Christianity. Jesus was born to die for each of us. When Mormons say they just focus on the resurrection or empty tomb. It really is innocence I believe. Its like a talking point that they have been told to use, and to not think to much about it. They just go with it and I don’t think they really delve deep into it. They simply have a program that if they follow all will be well, why focus on the Passion of Christ. *
*The Holy Days really helped me connect when I was learning the Catholic faith. I agree with everything you have written. Its so core to our spirituality. *
*10 years ago my wife started bawling during the Good Friday service. She had been a cradle Catholic and on this night it really struck her. That Jesus died for Her personally, not the other poor sinner, it became hers. The person who was reading the scriptures, the passion of Christ also took a fall when he spoke the words “it is finished” he began to cry as well. He said he was embarrassed; (pride) yet he touched so many other souls who also joined in with tears. Where else are you going to get that but in Christianity? We have the opportunity to be with Jesus at His birth, walk beside Him as He teaches us, walk with Him to Jerusalem, help him help us in our own suffering, be with Him at the Crucifixion under the Cross with Mary, John, and all the Saints and Angels in heaven, cry together, then live in the light of His resurrection. *
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
This is an awesome post. It says it all. Thanks!
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
Prasie God
The message of the Cross is where the power to evangelize is found, but it has to be utilized with deep Love and true concern, this only truly comes from Jesus. The Cross can strike profoundly hard. It leaves little room for argument. It serves all of us well when we can stand under it with even those we hate. It is the ultimate funeral with the ultimate human, the one that we can all love because not one of us is unloved by Him.
It’s where the spin stops, and we all should no by now the spinner who wants to spin us all. It wants to keep us all apart sinning against one another in so many ways. You can take a room full of us, all gossipers, lovers of self, people who have fallen into so many transactions in order to move up over the next, every sin available can stand in that room and the voices of arguments rising louder and louder that in the end go absolutely nowhere of. importance. Place all of us under the cross and looking up comes a place where you can hear the lightest feather hit the ground, the tiniest snow flake hit the ground, arms wrapped around each other we get it, we see each other the way that God see’s us all, all of his lost sheep very much loved, each one just as important as the next.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
:thumbsup:beautifully said
B
Barry_Gabriel
Guest
Check this article out. There are several links to pictures of Mormon women (some very prominent) wearing the cross. mormontimes.com/studies_doctrine/doctrine_discussion/?id=10632
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
So the cross aversion came later?
R
ricko
Guest
When Jesus told His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem to be put to death, Peter replied, “May you be spared Master! God forbid that any such thing should happen to you”. Peter probably expressed the feelings that many have of looking at a crucifix and being reminded of the suffering of the Christ. They do not want to see the crucified Christ. Yet without the crucifixion all would have been lost, for Christ came into the world to die on the cross. That one event made possible the forgiveness of sins and opened the gates of heaven. Now mankind could be saved because one man gave His life for many. Without the crucifixion there would have been no resurrection. Like Peter, many non-Catholics cannot bear to see the suffering that Christ endured and instead focus on the resurrection. As Catholics, when we look at the crucifix we see the great love that Jesus had for us and we are thankful and humbled to see the pain and suffering He endured for us. Jesus said “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” This is what we see in the Crucifix. The Passion of Christ shows us His great love for us and because of His suffering and death, sins can be forgiven, the resurrection came to be, the gates of heaven opened and mankind now has hope.
X
Xavierlives
Guest
I’ll just answer to my named issues.
I think the argument is equal to “what’s the best part of a banana split.” Its all good, but you are going to always have your favorite part and I’ll have mine and no matter what we’ll still be enjoying our Sundae together.
I think they are all fine representations of what he did for us. There are plenty of examples of people dying for others. There is no greater love that that. Jesus showed us that love by dying for us as an innocent lamb. But 2000 years later, people are interested in his resurrection because that shows divinity. No resurrection and Jesus is nothing but a prophet. The open grave shows it all. Us quibbling over the cross or the open grave is somewhat pointless because no church has an open grave as a symbol.
I think the argument is equal to “what’s the best part of a banana split.” Its all good, but you are going to always have your favorite part and I’ll have mine and no matter what we’ll still be enjoying our Sundae together.
OOO…careful. I never deminished the the importance of the innocent Jesus being put to death. I never said, its just anyone. I said, Lots of innocent people died on the cross. Without the resurrection of Christ, Jesus would have been another. I mean, Muslims are happy to acknowledge his death. They are not happy to say he rose again, That shows divinity in everyone’s eyes.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
But that’s not the only way Christ showed his divinity. He walked on water, he calmed the storm, he healed the sick and he raised the dead. Lazarus rose from the dead, but he was not divine.
X
Xavierlives
Guest
- The Apostles did the same things Jesus did. They were not God.
- Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus, not by Lazarus.
- Jesus was raised from the dead by whom?
- Status