Mormons and the Gospel

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

That is one of the myths about Mormons, we do believe God is eternal, he is the God the eternal Father, and as such He has no beginning and no end. He is God, and there is no other God or gods. He is our creator and He is perfect, but we believe that we all keep on progressing and learning throughout eternity and it is possible that a few will progress to the point of being gods, but never equal or at the same level as God.

BJ, you said there is “no other God or gods.” But you also say that “a few will progress to the point of being a god.” So are you saying that right now there is no other God or gods, but later on there will be?

I have spoken to many Mormons over the years, including missionaries, Mormons in leadership, and a former Bishop. The doctrine of eternal progression is understood to have been occurring prior to our earth. Heavenly Father is believed to have been a man on a planet near the star Kolob. He progressed to Godhood and is the Creator of this planet. Mormons have the opportunity to do the same–create and populate their own planet. To their planet’s inhabitants, this exalted Mormon is God Most High. He will be their Creator and God. These people will not be recognizing and worshipping Elohim because Elohim will not be their God. Elohim is our God.

Let me ask you this: say Mr. Smith, a good Mormon with a temple marriage, progresses to godhood. He and his wife create their world, produce spirit babies, choose a Savior, and start sending spirit babies to earth to be born. **Who do these people worship? Their God, Mr. Smith (who probably goes by his heavenly name)? Or Elohim (our God)? **

The comparison between Mormon gods and Catholic saints is not legitimate. Saints are simply Christians in heaven. They are not Creators or Gods and nobody worships them. (No, Catholics do not worship saints. They simply ask for prayer, just as I might as you to pray for me.)

Mormon gods, however, are Gods. They are a Creator, they are God of their creation, and they are worshipped by their creatures. It is not a myth that Mormonism teaches eternal progression. It is central to the Mormon religion and it is the centerpiece of their doctrine of salvation. In fact, the temple marriage ceremony is all about preparation for this progression.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

petra:

Christ atoned for ALL the sins of the world – Adam and Eve’s sin and all of our personal sins. That atonement is applied to a person when they receive the sacrament of Baptism. The application of that atonement remains unless a person does something to reject the grace of God. If that happens God’s love and kindness allows for us to be reconciled throught the sacrament of Reconciliation (confession). That person is then again in a state of grace and Christ’s perfect and complete atonement applies. Christ’s atonement and grace remains constant and is available to anyone. The variable is the free will of the individual. Does this help clarify?

Regarding God’s foreknowledge of Adam’s sin…God is outside of time. Simultaneously, He sees the creation of the universe and the Second Coming of Christ and everything in between. So of course He knew what Adam was going to do and had planned for that in an eternity prior to that. God’s plan of salvation was not spur of the moment. Again, He is outside of time. He sees the beginning and the end simultaneously.

Jesus, during His incarnation on earth, relenquished some of His attributes of omniscience. He knew when He would be returning for the Second Coming before the incarnation and He again knew after His ascension. But during His life on earth, He did not have knowledge of it. God, as the triune Godhead, always knew when the Second Coming would be.

Hey we agree! What a miracle! Then why are Catholics so mad at Adam for his sin, and blame him for their sins? It was in God’s plan of salvation exactly what I said in the beginning.
BJ

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

petra:

How could it be God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin? It is completely against God’s nature to advocate sin. He would be divided against Himself and He would negate eternal attributes of His nature.

Petra, This post from you caused me to believe that Catholics do not think that God knew that Adam would sin. In other words it was a surprise to God and ruined our world as it could have been, forever in the Garden of Eden without sin, pain, or suffering.

BJ, thank you for your reply.

God knew Adam would sin because He is outside of time. He simultaneously sees creation and the final judgment and everything in between.** But the fact that he sees how people will sin certainly does not mean that He advocates their sin!** Just because God knew Adam would sin does not mean that was His will! Adam’s sin was bad and has caused untold suffering and evil in the world ever since. My point in my previous post was that Mormon doctrine sees Adam’s sin as good and necessary (supposedly so they could reproduce, although we have demonstrated in this discussion that Adam and Eve certainly could have had kids without the Fall) My point was the Fall was not good. To call it Good implies that God was an accessory to the sin, and He was not.

Yes, we do believe that Lucifer was cast out of heaven with 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven who followed him, to spread destruction and suffering over the world. We believe he is real and always trying to lead us astray. That is why we spend so much time and energy protecting ourselves with the armor of God. By obeying all of the commandments, and studying the Bible and other scriptures, and living good lives of service to others BJ

But can you tell me whether he was cast out of heaven for rebelling against God because Jesus was chosen to be the Savior instead of him? Or was he cast out of heaven for wanting to be like God himself?

Peace to you.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

petra:

BJ, you said there is “no other God or gods.” But you also say that “a few will progress to the point of being a god.” So are you saying that right now there is no other God or gods, but later on there will be?

I have spoken to many Mormons over the years, including missionaries, Mormons in leadership, and a former Bishop. The doctrine of eternal progression is understood to have been occurring prior to our earth. Heavenly Father is believed to have been a man on a planet near the star Kolob. He progressed to Godhood and is the Creator of this planet. Mormons have the opportunity to do the same–create and populate their own planet. To their planet’s inhabitants, this exalted Mormon is God Most High. He will be their Creator and God. These people will not be recognizing and worshipping Elohim because Elohim will not be their God. Elohim is our God.

Let me ask you this: say Mr. Smith, a good Mormon with a temple marriage, progresses to godhood. He and his wife create their world, produce spirit babies, choose a Savior, and start sending spirit babies to earth to be born. **Who do these people worship? Their God, Mr. Smith (who probably goes by his heavenly name)? Or Elohim (our God)? **

The comparison between Mormon gods and Catholic saints is not legitimate. Saints are simply Christians in heaven. How do you know? They are not Creators or Gods and nobody worships them. (No, Catholics do not worship saints. They simply ask for prayer, just as I might as you to pray for me.)

Mormon gods, however, are Gods. They are a Creator, they are God of their creation, and they are worshipped by their creatures. It is not a myth that Mormonism teaches eternal progression. It is central to the Mormon religion and it is the centerpiece of their doctrine of salvation. In fact, the temple marriage ceremony is all about preparation for this progression.

---

There are no Mormon gods, there is only ONE GOD the ETERNAL FATHER! We do not worship nor will we ever worship any but the ONE GOD. Mormonism teaches eternal progression, but only as it pertains to education and family. We believe you must always be studying and learning and it will never stop even if and that is a big IF some reach perfection. It does not mean all of us expect to reach that stage. Just as not all Catholics are made Saints. It is a good example whether you think so or not. You do worship Mary and the Saints almost to the exclusion of God, in the eyes of persons watching.( I know you do not think you worship Mary, just as I know we do not worship all those gods you say we have) Even my husband thought he worshipped Mary, so somewhere the Catholic people are missing the point that Mary and the Saints are not to be worshipped. They are very confused and in my opinion the Catholic Church should focus more on God and educate their people to the fact that they are not to focus on Mary and the Saints in prayer.(only my humble opinion) I had to completely teach my husband how to pray, and that he did not need a go between, like Mary, or a Saint to pray for him. God wants to hear from His children directly, not through some designated saint or Mary. My husband now knows how to pray from the heart directly to God, and he is still a good Catholic and attends Mass every Sunday. He still believes in Mary and all the Saints, but he knows that he is God’s child, and God listens to his prayers. He knows how to talk to God and not just recite memorized prayers. The memorized prayers are tradition from when there were not enough bibles and the people were illiterate, so the priests taught them prayers that they could recite. At least that is what I read on a Catholic website. People can read now and it is time to say their own prayers from the heart and not confuse the people by praying through Mary and all those thousands of saints. Simplify things by worshiping only God, as the LDS do.

BJ

 

[petra]

Hey we agree! What a miracle! Then why are Catholics so mad at Adam for his sin, and blame him for their sins? It was in God’s plan of salvation exactly what I said in the beginning.
BJ

I don’t know that anybody is mad at Adam! But his sin did result in every one of his descendents being born with a sin nature. In other words, we literally inherit a sinful and corrupted nature. Additionally, we commit our own personal sins.

Your last sentence is problematic. Adam’s sin was not God’s will, and if he hadn’t sinned, there wouldn’t have been a need for a salvation plan. But he did sin, and God knew he would. The salvation plan is a solution to a problem: Adam’s sin which allowed sin and evil to enter the world.

But you can’t logically assert that the problem is part of the plan. The plan, rather, is the solution to the problem. Again, the fall of Adam and Eve was not good and necessary. It was a terrible thing. Christ suffered a horrible death to redeem us from the consequences of that tragedy.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

petra:

BJ Colbert:

BJ, thank you for your reply.

God knew Adam would sin because He is outside of time. He simultaneously sees creation and the final judgment and everything in between.** But the fact that he sees how people will sin certainly does not mean that He advocates their sin!**

Just because God knew Adam would sin does not mean that was His will! Adam’s sin was bad and has caused untold suffering and evil in the world ever since. My point in my previous post was that Mormon doctrine sees Adam’s sin as good and necessary (supposedly so they could reproduce, although we have demonstrated in this discussion that Adam and Eve certainly could have had kids without the Fall) My point was the Fall was not good. To call it Good implies that God was an accessory to the sin, and He was not.

But can you tell me whether he was cast out of heaven for rebelling against God because Jesus was chosen to be the Savior instead of him? Or was he cast out of heaven for wanting to be like God himself?

Peace to you.

He rebelled against God after Jesus was chosen, AND because he wanted to be like God himself.

I did not say that sin was good and God was not accessory to the sin, but He knew it would happen, just as He knows you will sin. He doesn’t want anyone to sin, but He knows they will which is why He gave us the plan of Salvation, and sent His only Begotten Son to Die on the Cross for our sins, so that through repentance and baptism we may receive forgiveness and return to live with Him some day. He knew, and He had a plan for that inevitability of Adam sinning. You should not be so mad at Adam, because we would not be here and Jesus would not have been our Savior if Adam had not sinned. Forgive him, God has forgiven him, why can’t the Catholic Church forgive Adam? Are they greater than God? BJ

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

There are no Mormon gods, there is only ONE GOD the ETERNAL FATHER! We do not worship nor will we ever worship any but the ONE GOD. Mormonism teaches eternal progression, but only as it pertains to education and family.

So all the missionaries (at least a dozen of them), Mormons leaders, and the former Mormon Bishop were misinforming me? Eternal progression does NOT pertain to education and family. It is the the Mormon plan of salvation.

Yes, according to Mormonism, you (BJ) worship one God. You worship the God of planet earth. But what about the inhabitants of other worlds who have been (or will be) created by progressed Mormons? Will they worship their own Creator or ours (Elohim)?

We believe you must always be studying and learning and it will never stop even if and that is a big IF some reach perfection. It does not mean all of us expect to reach that stage. Just as not all Catholics are made Saints. It is a good example whether you think so or not. You do worship Mary and the Saints almost to the exclusion of God, in the eyes of persons watching.( I know you do not think you worship Mary, just as I know we do not worship all those gods you say we have) Even my husband thought he worshipped Mary, so somewhere the Catholic people are missing the point that Mary and the Saints are not to be worshipped. They are very confused and in my opinion the Catholic Church should focus more on God and educate their people to the fact that they are not to focus on Mary and the Saints in prayer.(only my humble opinion) I had to completely teach my husband how to pray, and that he did not need a go between, like Mary, or a Saint to pray for him. God wants to hear from His children directly, not through some designated saint or Mary. My husband now knows how to pray from the heart directly to God, and he is still a good Catholic and attends Mass every Sunday. He still believes in Mary and all the Saints, but he knows that he is God’s child, and God listens to his prayers. He knows how to talk to God and not just recite memorized prayers. The memorized prayers are tradition from when there were not enough bibles and the people were illiterate, so the priests taught them prayers that they could recite. At least that is what I read on a Catholic website. People can read now and it is time to say their own prayers from the heart and not confuse the people by praying through Mary and all those thousands of saints. Simplify things by worshiping only God, as the LDS do.

BJ

I agree that some Catholics are confused about Mary, and even those that aren’t confused, it often appears to others that Mary and the saints are overemphasized. But you have to look to official church teachings to understand what is really being taught. Any religion, whether true or untrue, will have people that misunderstand or personally discard certain teachings. That in itself does not have any relevance for the religion’s orthodoxy. The Catholic Church teaches that Christains can pray for other Christians. Sometimes I ask my friends to pray for me. Am I asking them to “go between” God and I? Of course not! We have a direct connection to God through prayer, 24/7. Asking Christians (whether on earth or heaven) to pray for us in no way makes them a mediator.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Thanks for the duel Petra that was invigorating and I definitely need to study, you win!
I’m worn out…and really we will never agree, so let’s just agree to disagree BJ

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

Thanks for the duel Petra that was invigorating and I definitely need to study, you win!
I’m worn out…and really we will never agree, so let’s just agree to disagree BJ

Thank you for the discussion, too.
I’m heading off to bed! Have a nice evening!

 

[Chris-WA]

BJ Colbert:

I know for a fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke as a man a good portion of the time and he made no secret of it. He spoke as a Prophet on many occasions, but not all occasions. As a man he spoke as you or I would speak which is personal opinion. Other Prophets did the same. The things he spoke as a Prophet are in the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 130 v 22 is Joseph’s description of the Godhead, as received from inspiration from God. That is all we know for sure, the other is spoken as a man and may be true or not.

BJ, thank you for your valiant efforts to explain your faith. I’m sure you’re feeling a little exhausted by now. The above statement of yours troubles me. As a faithful Latter Day Saint, how do you know when an LDS prophet is speaking his own opinion or on behalf of God when he publicly preaches? It sounds like you’re saying that nothing the prophet says must be believed unless it’s included as part of your scriptures. Is this correct?

When you say, “Other prophets did the same,” who are you talking about? This cannot apply to any prophets from the bible, because all the records we have of their teachings are contained in the bible.

Finally, I may have missed your answer from before, but where did you get the idea that Adam and Eve were incapable of bearing children without the Fall?

 

[Tmaque]

****************************************************************************
There are no Mormon gods, there is only ONE GOD the ETERNAL FATHER! We do not worship nor will we ever worship any but the ONE GOD. .
BJ

BJ, you are mistaken. It is LDS doctrine that three Gods make up the “Godhead”. LDS most certainly believe there is more than one God! It is also clear that LDS worship more than one God. LDS worship Jesus(although you can’t pray to him…very odd). If you don’t believe me please refer to the LDS Church official website. mormon.org/learn/0,8672,802-1,00.html
BJ Colbert:

God wants to hear from His children directly, not through some designated saint or Mary.
BJ

BJ, If you’re serious here, then you must refrain from asking other people to pray for you. Because, after all, God doesn’t want to hear from anyone on your behalf. Only from you directly concerning your personal issues. Oh, and you can’t pray for anyone else either because God wants to hear from them directly, not from you concerning them. That is what you’re saying …right?
BJ Colbert:

The memorized prayers are tradition from when there were not enough bibles and the people were illiterate, so the priests taught them prayers that they could recite.
BJ

Do you honestly believe that only literate people can come up with a prayer from their own mind??? Everyone was taught prayers whether they could read or not. LDS have memorized prayers too. In fact, your most important blessings and prayers are standardized and not to be deviated from. Sacrament, baptism, temple ordinances, etc. are all standardized prayers. If you have standardized prayers for the most important events whats wrong with having them for the less important events?

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

I did not say that sin was good and God was not accessory to the sin

In a sense you did, though. You implied that if Adam had not sinned, we would not be here. There would be billions of spirit babies locked up in heaven without the ability to come to earth and get bodies.

I get the sense that “getting a body” is central to Mormon salvation, too. Is that accurate? According to Mormon teaching, there are billions are spirit babies in heaven waiting to be sent to earth and given a body. Mormon salvation is the entire process of leaving the pre-existence state, being sent to earth to get a body, living life in a particular way, and then being exalted. It is my understanding that progression and exhaltation cannot occur without first getting a body. In other words, the spirit babies not yet born on earth cannot attain exhaltation. They cannot be saved. The Mormon definition of salvation is not simply being in the presence of God, because the spirit babies already have that. Salvation is progression to some level of exhaltation and a few will supposedly attain godhood.

It is interesting to note that the chart that ex-mo posted on another thread indicated that the demons would go straight to hell because they have no opportunity to get a body.

It is also interesting to note that Mormons are not really being saved from the consequences of sin. They are being saved from their bodiless state and are allowed to live a life that merits them a specific level in heaven.

In Christianity, (in addition to the understanding of being in God’s wonderful presence forever) we understand salvation to specifically be deliverance from eternal separation from God, as a result of sin.

So, getting a body is a key ingredient in Mormon salvation. For whatever reason, Mormonism teaches that childbirth was not possible prior to the fall. (Another poster pointed out that this is scripturally incorrect) Therefore, according to Mormonism, the Fall of Adam is not a problem to which salvation is the solution. It is actually part of the plan. The problem, Mormonism says, is spirit babies need a prescribed path to attain exhaltation. With this view you could even say that the sin of Adam is part of the solution! This makes God an accessory to sin.

I’ll state again that Mormon people are well-meaning and nice. We are discussing the -ism. Mormon**ism ** is an insidious set of doctrines. It has all the indicators of an author that, for ages, has been wanting to demote God Eternal and promote himself. That would be Satan. He has even managed to twist the great human tragedy, the Fall of Man, into something that is good and necessary. And he has pursuaded others to follow his footsteps in the goal to become Gods themselves.

but He knew it would happen, just as He knows you will sin. He doesn’t want anyone to sin, but He knows they will which is why He gave us the plan of Salvation, and sent His only Begotten Son to Die on the Cross for our sins, so that through repentance and baptism we may receive forgiveness and return to live with Him some day. He knew, and He had a plan for that inevitability of Adam sinning.

Yes, I agree with the above statement (with the exception of the word “return.” Pre-existence is not supported in scriptures or apostolic tradition.)

Continued…

 

[petra]

You should not be so mad at Adam, because we would not be here and Jesus would not have been our Savior if Adam had not sinned. Forgive him, God has forgiven him, why can’t the Catholic Church forgive Adam? Are they greater than God? BJ

We are not mad at Adam. Why do you say the Catholic Church is mad and has not forgiven him? Your first sentence in the above quote confirms that the Mormon Church sees his sin as necessary and good.

In Christianity’s view, salvation is a solution to a problem. Adam’s sin separated all of mankind from God. Adam and Eve were previously in perfect fellowship with God. If they had had children prior to that, they too would be in perfoect fellowship with Him. God has always been a triune being. They would have known the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit perfectly. In other words, they would have known Jesus.

To frankly discuss the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin does not imply any unforgiveness or anger toward them. Scripture simply tells us objectively what the results were. Sin entering the world was a horrible thing. In its worst manifestations, people suffer unbelievable torture and abuse. People take advantage of each other and cheat. People’s hearts break. And to redeem us from our destiny of eternal separation, God came to earth to perfectly fulfill the Old Covenant and to endure the eternal punishment of billions of people. He did this in 3 hours. Did you see the movie, The Passion of the Christ? Think about what Jesus went through. You said that if Adam did not sin, Jesus would not be our Savior, and you say that like it was a good thing Jesus had to suffer that terrible death!

Yes, if Adam did not sin, Jesus would not have had to suffer on the cross for us. I wish that it were so! I wish that Adam and Eve had never sinned. I wish that humanity had a chance to be fruitful and multiply in a sinless state in perfect communion with our Creator.

Incidentally, if Jesus is our spirit brother, the first born of Elohim’s spirit babies, he is just a man with a special calling. He is simply one of God’s creation, as we are. A mere man with a special calling cannot endure an eternity of punishment for billions of people in 3 hours (keyword being eternity). This is another insidious twist of truth in Mormonism. Satan again, has demoted God (Jesus) and the Mormon Jesus isn’t capable to saving anyone.

Only God can save us by enduring an eternity of punishment for billions of people in 3 hours. Jesus is eternal. As part of the One True Eternal God, He is the Creator and we are His creation.

 

[jimmytoes]

petra:

Further, I don’t see any indication in scripture that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to sin in order to have children.

And in fact,quite the oposite… It does state that it was not necessary:

In Genesis 1:28, God tells Adam and Eve to “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.” This is immediately after he created them (in 1:27), and so, before the fall. True, there are two creation accounts, and the second makes no mention of child birth or children until after the fall, but the two accounts are not in opposition. In the first account, after he had created man, male and female, and told them to multiply, then he looked on his creation, and saw that it was good (i.e. before the fall).

Just my :twocents:
Jim

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I agree with all of you, now I’m really mad at Adam too. And I will never forgive Him for sinning and causing God all that trouble, changing His plans and all. Of course they could have children, God said " Multiply and replenish the earth."
We know when Prophets are speaking as Prophets when they tell us they are, or write it as scripture. Are you saying the Prophets of the Old/New Testament never spoke except as Prophets?
I feel that they had private lives that are not detailed in the Bible and that they spoke personal thoughts and opinion at times that was not written. Only the times they spoke God’s words were recorded. In Joseph Smith’s case he gave a lot of “sermons” that were personal opinion and so did other prophets, and they were not speaking direct revelation from God. McConkie wrote books and much of what he wrote was personal opinion added to revelation, which makes it confusing.
That is why JPII had his writings destroyed after he died. He did not want a bunch of people deciding what was correct and what was incorrect.
You can all go speculating about what Mormons believe, but you will never really understand, because you really don’t want to.
If you understood and agreed you would all be Mormons and if I understood your religion I would be Catholic. I recognize the truth and I don’t really care about the nitpicking things. Just as you recognize the truth as you see it and gloss over the nitpicking of non Catholics. It all makes sense to you and that is good. What is not good is to tear other religions apart to prove something and then reject the answer. All of my writings are only my personal opinion, God allows us to have personal opinions. It may not be correct thinking but it is what I know, and I don’t have the book knowledge to back it up.
I do have people pray for me and for my husband and I pray for other people even when they don’t ask me to, but as I said above I don’t know any dead people(saints) to ask to pray for me.
But, my husband prays to the saints and Mary, and asks them to pray for him/us. So I guess we are covered on both sides. BJ

 

[Chris-WA]

I agree with all of you, now I’m really mad at Adam too. And I will never forgive Him for sinning and causing God all that trouble, changing His plans and all.

BJ, I think we can dispense with all the “mad at Adam” stuff. Nobody here is mad at Adam. None of us are any better than he was, in fact, probably much worse. All we’re trying to do here is explain the Catholic understanding of the Fall and the nature of sin.

Of course they could have children, God said " Multiply and replenish the earth."

Glad we finally cleared that one up.

We know when Prophets are speaking as Prophets when they tell us they are, or write it as scripture. Are you saying the Prophets of the Old/New Testament never spoke except as Prophets?
I feel that they had private lives that are not detailed in the Bible and that they spoke personal thoughts and opinion at times that was not written. Only the times they spoke God’s words were recorded. In Joseph Smith’s case he gave a lot of “sermons” that were personal opinion and so did other prophets, and they were not speaking direct revelation from God.

I will have to disagree with you here. Any prophet who publicly preaches to his congregation has to know that his true followers are going to believe he is speaking truth, whether or not that preaching is later published as scripture. It’s one thing to have your own opinions in your private life, it’s quite another to stand in front of a congregation as a prophet of God and deliver a sermon. Yes, of course the Old Testament prophets had their own ideas, but since we have no record of them preaching to the people anything but God’s will, we can’t assume that they also injected their own personal teaching into their sermons as you claim Joseph Smth did.

My point is this: Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet of God, and the LDS church has never claimed otherwise. If you really believe he was a prophet, then you can’t say that this sermon of his was true and that sermon was merely his own opinion. Did Joseph Smith distinguish between the two when he was preaching?

I know you don’t believe that God was once a man who worked his way up to godhood. That’s terrific, because that’s correct. The problem is that Mormon prophets did teach this for a long time. Now the current prophet seems to have backtracked on this teaching, saying he really doesn’t know one way or the other. So the question now becomes, how can Joseph Smith be a true prophet of God when he publicly taught such things to his followers? He wasn’t speaking privately, and to my knowledge he didn’t say that he was only speaking his opinion. So in order to make this all work for Mormons, the choice is to either admit the possibility that Joseph Smith wasn’t a true prophet (which is untenable to them), or to find some way to excuse some of his teachings as “his own opinion.” Do you see the tricky situation here?

 

[Tmaque]

BJ Colbert:

I agree with all of you, now I’m really mad at Adam too. And I will never forgive Him for sinning and causing God all that trouble, changing His plans and all. Of course they could have children, God said " Multiply and replenish the earth."

I can understand your frustration with our attempts to pin down the LDS view on this subject. I understand that you think the fall was a necessary part of the plan of salvation. But, surely you can comprehend the Catholic view that Adam had free will, and used that free will to reject God. Did God know that was going to happen? Of course. But, we think he would have preferred Adam not sin. LDS think Adam HAD to sin in order to create a world where spirit children could be tested.
BJ Colbert:

We know when Prophets are speaking as Prophets when they tell us they are, or write it as scripture. Are you saying the Prophets of the Old/New Testament never spoke except as Prophets?
I feel that they had private lives that are not detailed in the Bible and that they spoke personal thoughts and opinion at times that was not written. Only the times they spoke God’s words were recorded. In Joseph Smith’s case he gave a lot of “sermons” that were personal opinion and so did other prophets, and they were not speaking direct revelation from God.

BJ, the revelation in 1978 giving people of African descent the priesthood is not in canonized scripture. Are we to assume that it is a transitory policy? If it is the LDS Church should certainly tell it’s members that the policy may be reversed at any time. That’s the whole problem with the LDS faith. Nothing can be counted on from one generation to the next.

You, being a faithful LDS, take as God’s word everything that GB Hinckley tells you while speaking as the President of the Church. This includes General Conferences, books, talks, etc. However, 50 years from now, it is very possible that some Church authority will be claiming that something Hinckley said was not binding and was just his personal(and wrong) opinion. This very thing has happened over and over and over again. That is the harsh reality of LDS faith and culture that caused me to leave the LDS Church.

Two opposing facts cannot both be true and that is what is required of faithful LDS to believe. (“The first principle of the Gospel, God was once a man”…Joseph Smith-Prophet of God “We don’t know much about God being a man at one time…we don’t teach that”…GB Hinckley-Prophet of God)
Because, they both can’t be right(they disagree), they both can’t be true prophets. Can you see the dilemma?
BJ Colbert:

McConkie wrote books and much of what he wrote was personal opinion added to revelation, which makes it confusing.
That is why JPII had his writings destroyed after he died. He did not want a bunch of people deciding what was correct and what was incorrect.

I don’t find McConkie confusing at all. If what he wrote was wrong then why wasn’t he criticized? He wasn’t criticized and I’ll tell you why. Because what he wrote was held as doctrine by the entire church at the time.

I cannot find any reference to JPII having his writings destroyed.
I can promise you that JPII wrote nothing that will come back to haunt Catholics in the future.
BJ Colbert:

You can all go speculating about what Mormons believe, but you will never really understand, because you really don’t want to.
If you understood and agreed you would all be Mormons and if I understood your religion I would be Catholic. I recognize the truth and I don’t really care about the nitpicking things. Just as you recognize the truth as you see it and gloss over the nitpicking of non Catholics.

I know what LDS believe, I don’t have to speculate because I was an active, devout LDS for the first 24 years of my life. I understand LDS doctrine very well. I agree with you that if you truly understood the Catholic Church you would be Catholic. BJ, the devil is in the details as they say. We must answer those nagging little questions. I have not, and will never gloss over the negative details of my faith.
BJ Colbert:

I do have people pray for me and for my husband and I pray for other people even when they don’t ask me to, but as I said above I don’t know any dead people(saints) to ask to pray for me.
But, my husband prays to the saints and Mary, and asks them to pray for him/us. So I guess we are covered on both sides. BJ

I’m glad you ask people to pray for you. So do I. Those in heaven and those on earth.

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

You can all go speculating about what Mormons believe, but you will never really understand, because you really don’t want to.

If you understood and agreed you would all be Mormons and if I understood your religion I would be Catholic.

I recognize the truth and I don’t really care about the nitpicking things. Just as you recognize the truth as you see it and gloss over the nitpicking of non Catholics. It all makes sense to you and that is good. What is not good is to tear other religions apart to prove something and then reject the answer. All of my writings are only my personal opinion, God allows us to have personal opinions. It may not be correct thinking but it is what I know, and I don’t have the book knowledge to back it up.

Hi BJ,

Understanding doesn’t always equal agreement or belief.
Belief should be a result of determining what is true.

• It is possible that when you fully understand something you will believe it.
• It is possible that if you do not understand something you may not believe.
BUT
• It is also possible that fully understanding something will mean that agreement and belief is untenable.
• And it is also possible to agree and belief in something BECAUSE one does not fully understand it.

You shared with us that you have lots of opinions about the Mormon Church, but don’t have a lot of book knowledge to back it up. Is it possible that you believe in Mormonism because you do not fully understand it? You say that you recognize the truth. How do you recognize the truth if you have lots of opinion but little knowledge of the Mormon Church’s official documents and scriptures?

Many former Mormons, such as Tmaque, are very knowledgeable about Mormon history, scriptures, and writings of the prophets. Is it possible that Tmaque is NOT a Mormon anymore because he/she DOES fully understand?

So you see, understanding something in particular doesn’t guarantee one will believe in that particular. However, understanding DOES ensure that we fully know whether something is true or false. We should all be seekers of Truth wherever it takes us–even if that process modifies a long-held view. We are not suggesting that anyone become a Catholic just because we are–or even because our own search for truth brought us here. I think I can speak for everyone that we would encourage everyone to be diligent seekers of Truth, to be honest with one’s self, and to have the courage to follow it.

The absolute truth of God’s nature, humanity’s problem, and God’s plan to remedy that problem is not different for everyone. It is a Truth that is out there for us to seek and discover. God has given us all the faculties to evaluate truth and fiction. Once we discover that objective Truth, we cannot own it. Nobody owns Truth. There is not “my truth” and “your truth.” Truth belongs to God. We can only discover and believe.

Your point about not wanting to nit pick the details brings up an interesting point. What is a detail? People’s failure to understand or adhere to official Church teachings, theological beliefs that are not central to the religion, or foundational Church teachings? If a detail is one of the first two, then yes, we shouldn’t nit pick. But if the “detail” is a foundational Church teaching, it isn’t nit picking at all to evaluate it thoroughly. The topics we have been discussing in this thread are foundational and cannot be dismissed as a detail.

The central doctrine of Mormonism is that pre-existing spirit babies must be born and tested on this earth to determine what state of exaltation they will merit. Sin entering the world was necessary in order to test them. This discussion has profound implications about the nature of God and the gospel. And I say again that the gospel of Mormonism is the very desire and goal that got Satan cast out of heaven. He is deceiving others now to attempt the same. Please, please don’t dismiss this as a detail that is being nit picked. This is a life or death issue.

love, petra

 

[TeriGator]

Tmaque:

BJ,

Lorenzo Snow (The 5th President of the LDS Church) taught, and I quote “As man is God once was, as God is man may become”.

This is precisely what I was taught, as a Mormon in Utah, in the 1970’s and 80’s. Have they changed their teaching? I left Utah in 1990, and their church before that, so maybe they no longer teach it.

Of course, I was also taught that we should not share the “meat of the gospel” before the “milk”, meaning that “hard teachings” that might be difficult for many to accept should be held back from converts until such time as they were ready to accept those teachings. BJ, if you’re reading this, is this a similar situation? (meaning no disrespect)

 

[TeriGator]

****************************************************************************
There are no Mormon gods, there is only ONE GOD the ETERNAL FATHER! We do not worship nor will we ever worship any but the ONE GOD. Mormonism teaches eternal progression, but only as it pertains to education and family.

BJ

As I mentioned previously, this is not in accord with what we were taught when I was Mormon. In fact, one of the reasons I ultimately could not remain one was that I never knew who to pray to. We talked of an eternal father, but he was not the god of this world. The god of this world had gone through the same sort of life that we had, worshipped the “one god” of his world, followed the teachings of the Messiah of his world, had become a perfected man, and been rewarded for his obedience by continuing as a god of his own world. The eternal father, by contrast, was apparently the original god who started the whole thing but was, by this time, remote and basically unknown.

I’m not trying to be combative here. It’s just that everything you are denying here was openly taught and discussed by members, teachers, apostles, and prophets in Utah. We would have been shocked if someone had denied it, branding them an apostate.