Mormons Answers by PeanutBono

[PeanutBono]

I have re-registered using a less offensive name that one I previous had and I apologize to any that was offended. As such all of my previous posts are not on the board any longer.
I had previously posted a thread and am restarting one where one can ask any question they want about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints also commonly known as the Mormon Church.
It is my intent not to try to inflict my views on anyone else but rather answer only questions that are poised to me with official Church Doctrine. In rare cases I may not be able to find an official doctrine on the matter and might lead you to a link that is not an official LDS site and not an official doctrine of our Church.
I will not on this thread pose questions, I simply will answer questions.
When referencing an LDS Doctrine please try to have the actual reference correctly. for example I read this at this website (give the name of the website or preferably the actual URL so that I may first verify the authenticity of the quote. From that I would be able to do accurate research on the subject.
I will not respond to statements if they do not have a question attached to them. Follow up questions will be answered in the same manner but I will not respond to statements that state an opinion as it is not my desire to debate any subjects.
Finally I would ask that other LDS members do not join this thread unless it is to correct a response I have given that is not in alignment with LDS Doctrine. I do this because I do not want heated debates.

 

[JHow]

Hello PeanutBono (Dig the new moniker):

The below comes from D&C located here: scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/130

Do Mormons understand the text 12-13 below to be a prophecy concerning the American civil war?

Are texts 14-17 part of the same prophecy?

If this is a prophecy concerning the civil war, is/was the war also tied somehow to the return of Christ?

Does the Mormon church have any teaching as to when Christ will return?

Here is the text which I copied from the link. The original text in the link has footnotes which came out funny when copied, hence “adifficulties”. I trust this won’t confuse things.

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a avoice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore alet this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

 

[PeanutBono]

Hello PeanutBono (Dig the new moniker):

The below comes from D&C located here: scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/130

Do Mormons understand the text 12-13 below to be a prophecy concerning the American civil war?

Are texts 14-17 part of the same prophecy?

If this is a prophecy concerning the civil war, is/was the war also tied somehow to the return of Christ?

Does the Mormon church have any teaching as to when Christ will return?

Here is the text which I copied from the link. The original text in the link has footnotes which came out funny when copied, hence “adifficulties”. I trust this won’t confuse things.

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a avoice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore alet this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

read through this and see if it it answers your questions. It may cause you to have more institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-121-130.asp

 

[lax16]

Hi PeanutBono - I am posting this from Moroni’s Latter-Day Saint page:

Bible References About Joseph Smith’s Calling as a Prophet

Joseph Smith was the first prophet in this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. God used Joseph to end the apostasy by restoring the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood authority and keys to the Earth. Under the direction of Jesus Christ, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, received revelations which were canonized as a volume of modern scripture along with countless others that were unpublished, organized and led the church, built two temples, established the missionary program, led the church through 4 states, established and built several cities, one that rivaled Chicago, was general over a militia, ran for president of the United States, and was faithful to The Lord right up to his murder at age 36, in 1844.

Here are some Bible verses that foretell of Joseph’s ministry.

Isaiah 29:11-12

“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.”
Joseph Smith only had the equivalent of a 6th grade education. He was exactly as the scripture says - an unlearned man. The bible passage refers to the gold plates being delivered to Joseph for translation by the power of God. The learned man in the verse refers to the language expert that Martin Harris brought copies of the writing on the gold plates. The expert examined the characters and authenticated them. When Martin told the expert that the writings came from gold plates and that part of them were sealed, the learned man tore up the authentication and said, “I cannot read a sealed book.”

Malachi 3:1

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
This prophecy was fulfilled on April 3, 1836 in the Kirtland, Ohio. Joseph is the “messenger”, who had prepared the way for the Lord through the restoration of all things. The Lord, Jesus Christ, did indeed come suddenly to His temple in Kirtland, Ohio, appearing to the prophet, Joseph, and to Sydney Rigdon. During that same experience Moses and Elijah appeared to them also and conferred the keys for missionary and temple work.

Ezekiel 37:16-20

“Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.”
This is a reference to the Book of Mormon and the Bible being companion books that compliment each other. I’ve included this under the Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon references because the two go hand in hand. The Book of Mormon is a true volume of scripture, prophesied in the Bible, and brought forth by God. Since the Book of Mormon is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy then Joseph Smith is indeed a Prophet of God.

I would say that anyone familiar with the bible (who was not already a Mormon) would have a hard time connecting these scriptural passages to Joseph Smith.

Isaiah 29:11-12 - This scripture cannot be taken out of context. It is referring to Jerusalem and her blind refusal to believe God’s revelation that the nation will be saved.
How do the LDS attach Joseph Smith to this scripture?

Malachi 3:1 - Of course, in the OT this is Elijah. Then, in the NT Jesus quotes this as John the Baptist.
Do Mormons really believe that it was Joseph Smith who prepared the way for Jesus Christ, as mentioned in this passage, and not John the Baptist?

Ezekial 37:16-20 According to jewsforjudaism.org:
The stick representing Judah and the stick representing the northern tribes of Israel become one when held end to end in the prophet’s hand. Thus, will the tribes of Israel that the sticks represent become one in actuality. Ezekiel 37:15-17 makes no reference to two separate records being kept, one for Judah and one for Joseph. Furthermore, there is no promise made of a national unification of Jews and Latter-day Saints taking place in North America or anywhere else. For all their assertions and genealogical research, the Latter-day Saints are not descendants of Joseph and can never join Judah in fulfillment of a nonexistent prophecy."
What would be the LDS response?

Also, are there any other biblical references foretelling the coming of the prophet Joseph Smith? These three from the LDS website are not convincing to anyone who knows their bible (even a little).
Thank you and I look forward to your response.

 

[JHow]

read through this and see if it it answers your questions. It may cause you to have more institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-121-130.asp

The ref you sent seems non-commital on whether or not Smith was predicting the civil war, Yes?

Also, they seem to posit no connection between 12-3 and 14-17., Yes?

Likewise, no end time is being predicted in these verses - “no man knows the hours” correct?

 

[Pieman333272]

Does the LDS Church believe it is Christ’s Church (i.e. the one he gave Peter the keys to)? If not, how do you justify the Book of Mormon’s late appearance and translation (compared to the discovery and assembly of the Gospels) and the LDS Church’s being a human-made Church?

 

[PeanutBono]

Hi PeanutBono - I am posting this from Moroni’s Latter-Day Saint page:

Bible References About Joseph Smith’s Calling as a Prophet

Joseph Smith was the first prophet in this, the dispensation of the fullness of times. God used Joseph to end the apostasy by restoring the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood authority and keys to the Earth. Under the direction of Jesus Christ, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, received revelations which were canonized as a volume of modern scripture along with countless others that were unpublished, organized and led the church, built two temples, established the missionary program, led the church through 4 states, established and built several cities, one that rivaled Chicago, was general over a militia, ran for president of the United States, and was faithful to The Lord right up to his murder at age 36, in 1844.

Thank you for posting your source, I visited the site and straight away found error when they stated Joseph Smiths age at his Death at 36. He was born in December 1805 and died June 1844 making him 38 years old. This is a problem with getting information from sources not in authority.

Here are some Bible verses that foretell of Joseph’s ministry.

I would say that anyone familiar with the bible (who was not already a Mormon) would have a hard time connecting these scriptural passages to Joseph Smith.

Isaiah 29:11-12 - This scripture cannot be taken out of context. It is referring to Jerusalem and her blind refusal to believe God’s revelation that the nation will be saved.
How do the LDS attach Joseph Smith to this scripture?
How some LDS people attach it to Joseph Smith is exactly as the site you mentioned at the top of this post. Many LDS Scholars see it differently.
Isaiah 29 has long been seen as a prophecy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
In the spring of 1995, FARMS held a symposium on Isaiah in the Book of Mormon. I noted that one of the papers presented was on Isaiah 29. I obtained the video copy of this presentation and was most disturbed to find that the speaker, an institute instructor, said that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon was not the message of Isaiah 29. In fact he devoted most of his paper to the demonstration that my minister friend’s interpretation was correct: Isaiah 29 is about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the scattering and gathering of Israel. My first impression was that his position as institute instructor should at least be reconsidered. He went on to explain that Nephi’s use, in 2 Nephi 27, of verses from Isaiah 29 was not a reconstruction of the original Isaiah 29, it was, rather, Nephi’s own prophecy in which he freely used Isaiah’s words. I couldn’t buy this explanation. Joseph Smith had made clear that Nephi was giving us Isaiah’s original text. In the JST the Prophet used Nephi’s version for Isaiah 29, copying almost verbatim 2 Nephi 27, beginning with verse 2.

Well, three years of reflection and careful review of Brother Robert Cloward’s symposium paper have brought me to a new understanding. This understanding has been further solidified by reading Brother Cloward’s full paper, recently published.(7) Nephi is teaching us to liken the teachings of Isaiah unto ourselves. Nephi specifically says that this is what he intended to do: “For I will liken his words unto my people” (2 Nephi 11:2). I now believe that Nephi is teaching us that an important, perhaps the most important, understanding of Isaiah comes as we learn to relate Isaiah’s words to our own time and circumstance. I believe that Joseph Smith used Nephi’s words to teach us the same thing–the only meaning of Isaiah’s words that are important to us today is that meaning which applies to our day. Yes, Isaiah 29 teaches of the destruction and gathering of Israel. And that message of gathering is significant and is not lost in Nephi’s likening. Rather, the focus is the gathering and the means whereby that gathering will be accomplished.

Nephi is also teaching us a pattern of biblical prophecy. Like the two meanings of Isaiah’s poetic parallelism, prophecy often has multiple fulfillments. Isaiah 29 does have the meaning ascribed by my minister friend. It also has the meaning given to it by Nephi. Similarly, the world sees the LDS interpretation of Ezekiel 37 to be strange. In context the meaning is clear. The nation of Judah and the nation of Ephriam (these are the Southern and Northern Kingdoms of Israel) will one day be again joined together as one people. This is how the Christian world understands this prophecy and we should have no problem with this interpretation. However, the Lord has given us a second interpretation. We might try to develop this second meaning from the context, but we must remember: that’s not our source. We came to know the application of this prophecy to the Book of Mormon when the Lord himself referred (D&C 27:5) to that book as the stick of Ephriam. Both meanings are true!

Do Mormons really believe that it was Joseph Smith who prepared the way for Jesus Christ, as mentioned in this passage, and not John the Baptist?
no we do not believe that JS prepared the way for Christ we know it was John the Baptist

What would be the LDS response? See above comments it also has address to this scripture

Also, are there any other biblical references foretelling the coming of the prophet Joseph Smith? These three from the LDS website are not convincing to anyone who knows their bible (even a little). Not that I am aware of, our official doctrine is not to convince anyone about Joseph Smith, It is only to convince the Jews and Gentiles That Jesus is the Christ

 

[PeanutBono]

I had to delete a lot of what you wrote to get under 6k words in my response.

 

[PeanutBono]

The ref you sent seems non-commital on whether or not Smith was predicting the civil war, Yes?
here is some more to chew on the matter. institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-081-87.asp
Also, they seem to posit no connection between 12-3 and 14-17., Yes? As stated in the historical context of the first link I gave this revelation was not one continuous revelation. It appears to have been from both revelation as well as dicussions

Likewise, no end time is being predicted in these verses - “no man knows the hours” correct?

Yes we hold to the belief that no man knoweth. Prophets both ancient and modern give warnings only as to the condition of the world and from them those who understand the warnings will understand when we are in the last days

 

[PeanutBono]

Does the LDS Church believe it is Christ’s Church (i.e. the one he gave Peter the keys to)? If not, how do you justify the Book of Mormon’s late appearance and translation (compared to the discovery and assembly of the Gospels) and the LDS Church’s being a human-made Church?

Yes we believe Peter restored the keys to the earth through Joseph Smith for what we call the Melchizedek priesthood and that John The Baptist restored what is known as the Aaronic priesthood . For more information see this link :lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=77ee6169b62fe010VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD for more information on why we claim the “late appearance” (we called it a restoration) of Christ’s church read our official doctrine on the apostasy here: boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_1 this will probably take days to read, research and digest at least it did for me.

 

[Timothy17]

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a avoice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the acoming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore alet this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

I can’t help but recognize an uncanny semblance to this sort of prophesying with that of the Sybilline books of Rome, the Sybils themselves, or the oracles at Delphi.

Does the LDS Church provide any reasoning for why Joseph’s prophecies sound so… funny (as in, odd) ? I.E, why his revelations sound so different from, say, Revelations itself or OT revelations ? Frankly, I hear little or no semblance to those conversations the Prophets were reported to have with God in the Old Testament. It reminds me almost of Nostradamus or other trance induced kind of prophesying, where the would-be prophets were temporarily and partially admitted into some potential future happening.

It sounds like prophecy, no doubt, but it doesn’t sound like something you’d see in Sacred Scripture - so why the glaring contrast ?

Pax,
Tim

 

[PeanutBono]

I can’t help but recognize an uncanny semblance to this sort of prophesying with that of the Sybilline books of Rome, the Sybils themselves, or the oracles at Delphi.

Does the LDS Church provide any reasoning for why Joseph’s prophecies sound so… funny (as in, odd) ? I.E, why his revelations sound so different from, say, Revelations itself or OT revelations ? Frankly, I hear little or no semblance to those conversations the Prophets were reported to have with God in the Old Testament. It reminds me almost of Nostradamus or other trance induced kind of prophesying, where the would-be prophets were temporarily and partially admitted into some potential future happening.

It sounds like prophecy, no doubt, but it doesn’t sound like something you’d see in Sacred Scripture - so why the glaring contrast ?
The church has no official stance on your question as far as I am aware but my personal belief is that it has to do with the times in which they are received just as in the bible you see differences between each book for example Isaiah compared to John. If you think through the different books within the bible there are unique writing styles of each of the authors. Also I would like to note that while Joseph Smith did use this style it was not the most common style he used. here is a link that will take you to a book we call the Doctrine and Covenants you can peruse through the different sections and see more common styles of revelation he received scriptures.lds.org/dc/contents

Pax,
Tim

 

[Timothy17]

Well, thank-you for the response. I am familiar with this type of Mormonic writing (my best friend is a Mormon, and I read much of the BOM when I was a teen out of interest for understanding his religion).

I suggest, for context about what I mean, that you see this, the pseudo-sibylline books :

sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib.pdf

These books were pseudo-Christian, Jewish and even some random pagan oracles / writings, all meshed together. There was an obvious attempt to make them seem or sound authentically Christian as Christianity began to become dominant, much of it by “knocking-off” the Scriptures or paraphrasing them at some points, specially the OT, while referencing the Saviour at times through-out. This kind of thing happened a lot it seems, which may be why around this time the Catholic Church felt compelled to develop the official canonical list, based on the received Tradition.

Pax,
Tim

Here is an excerpt, for example :
Sibylline Books:

1 BEGINNING with the generation first
Of mortal men down to the very last
I’ll prophesy each thing: what erst2 has been,
And what is now, and what shall yet befall
5 The world through the impiety of men.
First now God urges on me to relate
Truly how into being came the world.
And thou, shrewd mortal, prudently make known,
Lest ever thou should’st my commands neglect,

…]

But when these in wars shall rule,
And laws shall be enacted, there shall be
A little rest from war, not for long time;
But9 when a wolf shall to a flock of sheep
Pledge solemn oaths against the white-toothed dogs,
40 Then, having misled, he will tear in pieces
The woolly sheep, and cast his oaths aside;
And then shall there be an unlawful strife
Of haughty kings in wars, and Syrians
Shall perish terribly, and Indians
45 And the Armenians and Arabians,
The Persians and the Babylonians
Shall one another by hard fights destroy.

 

[PeanutBono]

These certainly have a canny resemblance to the five books of Moses found in the Old Testament. I would call it scriptures mingled with the philosophies of man. As the preface talked about it looks like the writer used actual scripture and mixed in political leaders of the day to try to gain favor of a political leader or show them in a context that would represent them as blasphemous. While I see how you are relating this type of text to what you see in Joseph Smiths style. A basic study of Joseph Smiths writings would show there is no correlation in either style or content between the oracle documents you posted and the writings of Joseph Smith.

 

[LongJourney]

A basic study of Joseph Smiths writings would show there is no correlation in either style or content between the oracle documents you posted and the writings of Joseph Smith.

But they share a commonality in that they are Gnostic

of or relating to Gnosticism; “Gnostic writings”​

an advocate of Gnosticism​

possessing intellectual or esoteric knowledge of spiritual things​

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Gnosticism ( gnōsis, knowledge) refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that the cosmos was created by an imperfect god, the demiurge with some of the supreme God’s pneuma; this being is frequently …​

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic

gnosticism - a religious orientation advocating gnosis as the way to release a person’s spiritual element; considered heresy by Christian churches​

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Gnosticism - A wide variety of Jewish and early Christian sects having an interest in gnosis, or divine knowledge and generally holding the belief that there is a god greater than the Demiurge, or the creator of the world​

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Both a specific sect mentioned by heresiologists, and a category for a number of sects that believed “Gnosis” had a salvational purpose.​

www.kheper.net/topics/Gnosticism/glossary.html

From the Greek term Gnosis which means knowledge, Gnostic is a person who believes in higher spiritual knowledge. Gnostics believed there were higher or hidden truths behind traditional religious teachings and these hidden truths were the passages to enlightenment. …​

www.tarotteachings.com/meanings-dictionary-for-tarot-a-g.html

Family of early Christian heresies that were purported to contain the secrets of the universe.​

personal-pages.lvc.edu/robbins/ChristianTerms.htm

Mormonism, especially post 1830 and up to 1900 has a strongly Gnostic flavor. Do you choose to justify or deny this?

 

[PeanutBono]

But they share a commonality in that they are Gnostic Mormonism, especially post 1830 and up to 1900 has a strongly Gnostic flavor. Do you choose to justify or deny this?

Homepage - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Discover a service-oriented, globally-connected Christian church that is led by a prophet of God and seeks to follow Jesus Christ and His restored gospel.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=09273219c786b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=f02318e7c379b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

[LongJourney]

The first link did not work. I see from those second two links that Mormonism rejects the Gnostic texts, and accepts the Catholic rejection of them. However, many of the deeper teachings of the LDS church, like some of those of the King Follet Discourse, have a Gnostic flavor. How do you agree with rejection of the ancient Gnostic texts, but accept the Gnostic teachings of past “prophets?” Or does Mormonism now reject its Gnostic past?

 

[PeanutBono]

The first link did not work. lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=e7dac5e8b4b6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD see if that one works better
I see from those second two links that Mormonism rejects the Gnostic texts, and accepts the Catholic rejection of them. However, many of the deeper teachings of the LDS church, like some of those of the King Follet Discourse, have a Gnostic flavor. How do you agree with rejection of the ancient Gnostic texts, but accept the Gnostic teachings of past “prophets?” Or does Mormonism now reject its Gnostic past?

We accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, We also know that he was not a perfect man. Any correlation you see between him and Gnostic writers 1600 years earlier is your agency to so choose and I have no problem with that. To me personally it is of little significance. To me it has always been about the message and the doctrine. I realize that 95% of disputations are about Joseph Smith and who he was as a person which is a fair enough argument for anyone and rightful to ask. I will provide to the best of my ability any official doctrines that exist but in many cases the church has no official comments on someones else’s personal viewpoint on a matter. Personally I have read ALL of the highly convincing information you shall put forth about Joseph Smith and I can in no way deny he was an authentic Authorized Servant of God. But that is me and not you and I do not expect you to feel the same.

 

[LongJourney]

Thank you for your answer. Yes, we have major differences in belief. We can agree on that.

Added: Yes, the first link works. And it is certainly an answer to part of my question.

 

[PeanutBono]

Thank you for your answer. Yes, we have major differences in belief. We can agree on that.

And lets not forget what we have in common