Mormons - Are JWs a Cult?

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Grace_Seeker said:
In more than 30 years of being friends with Mormons, visiting services at a Mormon stake, , reading about Mormonism from its attackers and adherents both within the LDS and outside of it, and chatting with Mormon missionaries in Nauvoo who knew I was writing a Master’s thesis on the beginnings of Mormonism, I have never once heard the explanation you have just shared. Indeed, I always heard the one you have just denied.
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Then your great research and “masters theses” were pretty shallow. This is the explanation that Gordon B Hinckley gave several years ago to a Protestant minister who questioned him on the subject during a temple open house meeting when several prominent members of the community were invited to attend, and President Hinckley offered to answer their questions, and it was well publicized at that time. I cannot remember now sufficient detail about the circumstances surrounding it to give you references for it. Perhaps other LDS who know more about the occasion can find the right reference.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
Then your great research and “masters theses” were pretty shallow. This is the explanation that Gordon B Hinckley gave several years ago to a Protestant minister who questioned him on the subject during a temple open house meeting when several prominent members of the community were invited to attend, and President Hinckley offered to answer their questions, and it was well publicized at that time. I cannot remember now sufficient detail about the circumstances surrounding it to give you references for it. Perhaps other LDS who know more about the occasion can find the right reference.

zerinus
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I think it more likely that Mormonism has once again changed. I completed my Masters 10 years before Hinckley became president of the LDS. One of the easiest observations to make was then and remains now, how casually Mormonism changes to accommodate its temporal goals.

I understand that Hinckley has distanced himself form Lorenzo Snow’s famous quote – "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’’ – saying, “Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else.” In 1987 it was dogma.

If Hinckley wants to distance himself from more of these former statements and beliefs taught by the church, I will not crticize him for it. Indeed, in time, I may change my present opinion of Mormonism and agree with you all that it is a form of Christianity after all. I know that the “Church” that existed in Nauvoo was not.
 
wademann said:
It does not say all Popes and all priests. I would have to say that there is evidence, that some of them, have been doing satans work, and not just the catholic religion.😦
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it says ALL their creeds are abomination!

it says ALL their professors corrupt!

I’m not talking about individual members, i’m talking about the indictment against the basic doctrines and those who profess them.

so what parts of the apostles or nicene creeds are an abomination? that might help to illustrate why their professors are deemed corrupt.
 
PaulDupre said:
In the pre-1990 version of the endowment, Lucifer says “I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on this earth!”

Paul
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I do not remember the name Pope being used. I would have considering I was raised Catholic it seems to me. I just do not recall that. I remember the preacher etc. It has been some time though and my memory is probably faulty on that. Thanks for clarifying. 🙂
 
majick275 said:
not as another character but described by Lucifer in his angry tirade that he would use the treasures of the earth to buy up popes who would rule with blood and horror. (amongst other things) here is the pre 1990 exact quote:

Then with that enmity I will take the treasure of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, Popes and false priests who oppress, and tyrants who destroy, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!

that is what i was referring to
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Thank you I do vaguely remember that. It has been some time ago for me. I just didn’t recall that right off. 🙂
 
Grace_Seeker said:
I think it more likely that Mormonism has once again changed. I completed my Masters 10 years before Hinckley became president of the LDS. One of the easiest observations to make was then and remains now, how casually Mormonism changes to accommodate its temporal goals.
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Mormonism does not change. The fundamental doctrines of Mormonism do not change, and have not changed. The fundamental doctrines of Mormonism are that which is contained within the standard works of the Church; and they do not change. Man’s perception of them may change over time, and our ability to understand the scriptures better may increase; but they do not change. God may also reveal new truths to the Church today that we did not know before, without necessarily contradicting what was previously revealed; but that is not the same as doctrine being changed.

zerinus
 
actually the actual scriptures themselves have changed in the LDs church. a section was removed because it denounced polygamy, a section was added to allow polygamy, another section was added to stop the practice of polygamy. a section was added to define the nature of God, then it was removed because it conflicted with a new definition. the list is extensive and probably still subject to change.
 
majick275 said:
actually the actual scriptures themselves have changed in the LDs church. a section was removed because it denounced polygamy, a section was added to allow polygamy, another section was added to stop the practice of polygamy. a section was added to define the nature of God, then it was removed because it conflicted with a new definition. the list is extensive and probably still subject to change.
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You are correct many things have changed.
 
zerinus said:
We view them as we view any other religion. We treat all religions with respect. There is no reason why we should treat JWs any different.
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You should rephrase that to “we act as if we respect all religions, but since they are all apostate, we disrespect them by working to convert their members to the Mormon religion.” That would be closer to ZerinusTruth.
The short answer is no. “Cult” is a derogatory term used (by Evangelicals mainly) to attack and insult any religion they don’t agree with—which means pretty much everybody except themselves. We are not into attacking or insulting other religions. We treat all religions with respect.
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The word “cult” is only derogatory in the eyes of cultists who want to appear as other than they are. It is a useful term to describe strange sects which do not hold to the truth that Jesus taught, and continues to teach through the Church that he established.
It all depends on how you use the word cult. In the (derogatory) sense in which you are using it, the answer is no, we do not consider any religion a cult. We respect all mankind’s religious beliefs, and we treat their religions with deference. We do not seek to insult any man with regard to his personal convictions.
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See above for reply to this redundant paragraph.
The word cult has at least two different meanings. One use is, as described, a purely derogatory term to attack any religion that “I don’t agree with”. The other meaning is in the secular realm in which it is it is just another word like any other, and has no derogatory connotations. In that sense of the term, it is more often used in a non-religious sense than a religious one.
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True, the word “cult” can have any of several meanings, but let’s be clear, the meaning we are applying to it in this case is religious, as in this from Merriam-Webster:

“A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious. also Its body of adherents.”

That would be Mormonism defined in apposition to Christianity. Christianity is orthodox and true. Mormonism, being an offshoot from Christianity, has become unorthodox and spurious, and is widely regarded, within and without Christianity, as being so.
 
zerinus said:
No fundamental doctrines have changed.

zerinus
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Including that of polygamy. This is one of the points several have made here, and elsewhere: The missionaries often tell a rosy story of family home evenings and genealogical contructs in a heavenly realm known only to Mormons. Underneath this home and hearth image, though, lurks the reality of an unchanging religion of polygamy and blood atonement, skin and bone gods who do not create but merely assemble, subservient women, patriarchal men, and an overblown sense of holiness brought on by following rules rather than worshipping Almighty God.
 
zerinus said:
No fundamental doctrines have changed.

zerinus
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Those who were part of the community at Nauvoo could not even agree on what the fundamental principles were, hence the division into 4 separate groups following the exodus.

If you really think that there have been no fundamental changes in the beliefs of the LDS then you simply do not know the history of your own faith community. I have read some of the original documents with my own eyes and I see what the church publishes today and there are noted differences.

If you want to believe otherwise, that is your business. And it is the LDSs business if it wants to adopt these changes, in fact I am glad to see some of them. But you are simply fooling yourself if you think that all the changes have been in man’s perception of the doctrines of the church. You yourself have attested to new revelation. Despite your protestations, I submit that some of these have indeed contradicted old revelations. (And I refer to more than the rather simple issue of polygamy.) Again that is the LDS’s business, not mine. But to assert that they haven’t is simply not the truth. I’m sorry if you have been led to believe otherwise.
 
Grace_Seeker said:
Those who were part of the community at Nauvoo could not even agree on what the fundamental principles were, hence the division into 4 separate groups following the exodus.

If you really think that there have been no fundamental changes in the beliefs of the LDS then you simply do not know the history of your own faith community. I have read some of the original documents with my own eyes and I see what the church publishes today and there are noted differences.

If you want to believe otherwise, that is your business. And it is the LDSs business if it wants to adopt these changes, in fact I am glad to see some of them. But you are simply fooling yourself if you think that all the changes have been in man’s perception of the doctrines of the church. You yourself have attested to new revelation. Despite your protestations, I submit that some of these have indeed contradicted old revelations. (And I refer to more than the rather simple issue of polygamy.) Again that is the LDS’s business, not mine. But to assert that they haven’t is simply not the truth. I’m sorry if you have been led to believe otherwise.
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The fundamental doctrines of the LDS Church have not changed, period. It appears to be your word against mine, since you have given no concrete examples. I stick to my word.

zerinus
 
i gave specific examples that were in canonized LDS scripture. the only response was that somehow the doctrines that were changed weren’t “fundamental” doctrines.
 
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