Mormons ... can anyone clear these things up for me?

[Chanticleer]

Zaffiroborant- Good questions and good points!

Here’s another Mormon Brain Teaser- God the Father must surely have brothers and sisters. Where are they ? Or better yet, Where are God’s parents ? Where is His " forever family"?
If exalted beings eventually have their own universes it really ends up being just the husband and the wives and their future spirit children who are moving targets in eternal time.( which means their children have the potential to leave this universe for their own) It really makes no sense to have your children sealed to you because one has to work out ones own final exaltation. You don’t get a free pass to heaven with Mom and Dad just because you’re sealed to them .
Children are not children (small) in eternity. I would presume that they’re adults if they live to be adults. I wonder in their view if children who die as children are resurrected as children or adults. I wonder the same about aborted babies

 

[Chanticleer]

A few more thoughts. Are children who die sealed in marriage on this side of the veil (temple) so that they may progress eternally or are they sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom. Do aborted babies have souls or do they revert to the spirit world and wait for another body?

 

[zerinus]

Hi Zerinus,

PLEASE forgive MY ignorance,
The numbers 50 through 70 in your response ( is that from the BoM as prophitized by JS???

Thanks,
I SINCERLY appreciate you taking the time to respond.

God bless,
Carl

That quote comes from the book of Doctrine and Covenants, section 79. That is what D&C 76 at the top of it means. LDS have three volumes of scripture in addition to the Bible. The D&C is one of those. And yes, they are revelations received by Joseph Smith.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Why? Majick275 and even Teancum79 said that the questions were worth discussion and Majick275 even made a correction of something that was was glaringly untrue (while he mentioned that a few statements were correct. Why not adress them? Surely you don’t want false information to go on being spread.

I am not majik! He has his own ulterior motives for what he does. I am not like him.

zerinus

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

That quote comes from the book of Doctrine and Covenants, section 79. That is what D&C 76 at the top of it means. LDS have three volumes of scripture in addition to the Bible. The D&C is one of those. And yes, they are revelations received by Joseph Smith.

zerinus

Hi Zerinus,

Thank you for the response.

I have heard alot of " street talk " for the answers that I ask you.
( thought it would be best to ask the Mormon directly) and I do appreciate your sharing.

So I am clear ( if I may and thanks for your patience with me )
The 3 volumes of scripture AND the bible are all " translated " from JS at the birth of BoM.

Thanks again
God bless,
Carl

 

[wmscott]

These are a bunch of falsehoods and lies about Mormonism that you have invented yourself, and does not deserve a reply.

zerinus

Why does it not deserve a reply, I want to know

OK then let’s take just one of them for now from your own texts:

Mormons believe, the Heavenly Father came to earth and had physical, sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary. Rejecting both the testimony of Scripture (Luke 1:34-35) and the constant teaching of the Christian Church, Mormons believe Christ was conceived by the Father, and not by the Holy Spirit. (Journal of Discourses 2:268.)

The Journal of Discourses (often abbreviated J.D.) is a 26-volume collection of public sermons by early leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)

 

[wmscott]

i think it was cut an pasted or at least paraphrased from an evangelical site. STILL… worth discussing as long as we discard the errors.

It was and because I do not know the Mormon faith that well I had to ask. However, from what I see so far it was not too far off just skewed some.

 

[majick275]

Majick275 (#19) stated that worthy women whose husbands don’t qualify for exaltation will be GIVEN to other worthy men. (in the Celestial Kingdom )

Does a woman in this situation have any say in who this man will be?

not addressed but scriptural precedent implies that God will make the decision through his delegated prophet. in the resurrection mormons believe that various earthly prophets will be in charge of the groups of people from their “dispensation”. this is to maintain order and in the absence of satan is expected to be pefectly inspired leadership directly supervised by god.

Is it a decision made by a male council when a tally is taken on the number of women who qualify?

no

Is the number of Celestial wives one may have based on merit earned in this life?

qualified no. you either get 0 in the case of those who fail to achieve exaltation or you get >1 if you are exalted. no specific quotas.

Are the worthy women called from their graves on the “morning of the first resurrection” by their new husbands? Surprise!!!

not addressed. prevailing thought is no. they will rise in the resurrection when God calls them and during the millennium all of these type issues will be addressed and required ordinances performed in the temples. in the absence of Satan everyone will be pleased with the results.

Do mormon women really think this through? I would think todays LDS women would have a really tough time thinking about the possibility of waking up in eternity to find that they may possibly have several sister wives in the afterlife. FLDS wives would expect it but not ,(dare I use the word) orthodox mormons…/quote] many mormon women simply don’t think about this on purpose. some do and are deeply troubled by it. some even look forward to it. some have never considered this.
Chanticleer;3841175:

The Terrestrial Kingdom sounds like the best deal to me ladies and I know exactly how to get there. Stay Catholic !

except that in mormon theology everyone not exalted is a eunuch. the terrestrial kingdom people will never see Elohim either, just Jesus. and they can’t travel to other kingdoms either.

 

[majick275]

And what about the unworthy husband and the kids and their “forever family” where is that? They just lose out on a “forever dad” in spite of doing everything right. Or do they just not care and take on mom’s new “husband” as their dad because their real dad is a loser and didn’t make it? The whole idea that LDS gives you an eternal family is ludicrous in light of sending everyone to different levels of heaven. How is a family together if some are in the telestial some the terrestrial and some the celestial kingdom? Do the faithful kids go slumming to visit their “forever dad” down in the telestial?

pretty much correct. since everyone gets their memories back after death we are all really siblings in LDS theology. so abeing adopted by a different brother is okay. the exalted can visit lower kingdoms to check on their wayward siblings. and yes i think it ludicrous that my brother is going to be my great, great, great , great…grandfather in a feudal chain of authority up to my father…God in mormon theology.

About this

How does this happen, are the “intelligences” caught like fish and put into spirit bodies, how does the human matryoshka start?

no. we don’t know. no one said how. speculation is that higher gods assign intelligences to lower Gods and at spirit birth the intelligence becomes spirit. no details have ever been addressed authoritatively in my experience.

 

[AMDGtoo]

they will rise in the resurrection when God calls them

I thought it was at the husband’s descretion. Is that what is meant by “when God calls them”? If her husband-god doesn’t choose to call them, well they can forget about the resurrection?

 

[majick275]

Zaffiroborant- Good questions and good points!

Here’s another Mormon Brain Teaser- God the Father must surely have brothers and sisters. Where are they ? Or better yet, Where are God’s parents ? Where is His " forever family"?
If exalted beings eventually have their own universes it really ends up being just the husband and the wives and their future spirit children who are moving targets in eternal time.( which means their children have the potential to leave this universe for their own) It really makes no sense to have your children sealed to you because one has to work out ones own final exaltation. You don’t get a free pass to heaven with Mom and Dad just because you’re sealed to them .
Children are not children (small) in eternity. I would presume that they’re adults if they live to be adults. I wonder in their view if children who die as children are resurrected as children or adults. I wonder the same about aborted babies

they are resurrected in their “glorified” state meaning the ideal body for them. all imperfections are corrected, etc. some LDS leaders have in the past stated they will appear the age they died at but all seem to agree that after final judgment all will be in their perfected state. (differences being in the various kingdoms and the respective glory i.e. a celestial body is more glorious than a telestial body) aborted fetuses are not addressed. mormons do not teach exactly when the fetus becomes a person. most appear to believe in a time of ensoulment but do not agree on just when that occurs.

 

[majick275]

A few more thoughts. Are children who die sealed in marriage on this side of the veil (temple) so that they may progress eternally or are they sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom. Do aborted babies have souls or do they revert to the spirit world and wait for another body?

no. they will have the opportunity to be married during the millenium.

spirits awaiting birth who don’t get born are an interesting case. there is no consensus in mormonism on when “ensoulment” takes place. if after then soul goes straight to heaven if before then soul waits for a different body.

 

[majick275]

It was and because I do not know the Mormon faith that well I had to ask. However, from what I see so far it was not too far off just skewed some.

well the wording was a bit sensationalist and inflammatory too.

 

[majick275]

majick275;3842187:

they will rise in the resurrection when God calls them

I thought it was at the husband’s descretion. Is that what is meant by “when God calls them”? If her husband-god doesn’t choose to call them, well they can forget about the resurrection?

no. any man who would do that isn’t worthy of exaltation. sealed men who become exalted would consider it a glorious privilege to call forth their “queens and priestesses” since they will all have celestial bodies and in the absence of satan be perfect companions. and there is no limit to how many he can have.

 

[wmscott]

well the wording was a bit sensationalist and inflammatory too.

It was not ment to be on my part, it was information I had found and wanted to know the validity of it.

 

[majick275]

It was not ment to be on my part, it was information I had found and wanted to know the validity of it.

i thought so. no problem.

 

[zerinus]

Hi Zerinus,

Thank you for the response.

I have heard alot of " street talk " for the answers that I ask you.
( thought it would be best to ask the Mormon directly) and I do appreciate your sharing.

So I am clear ( if I may and thanks for your patience with me )
The 3 volumes of scripture AND the bible are all " translated " from JS at the birth of BoM.

Thanks again
God bless,
Carl

You are very welcome. You can read the complete text of that revelation here:

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76

All the scriptures of the LDS Church are on the internet, and can be read online (and they are fully searchable). Here is the link:

scriptures.lds.org/

zerinus

 

[BDawg]

Why? Majick275 and even Teancum79 said that the questions were worth discussion and Majick275 even made a correction of something that was was glaringly untrue (while he mentioned that a few statements were correct. Why not adress them? Surely you don’t want false information to go on being spread.

Consider the one about Mormons thinking that “familiar spirits” are good. This comes from a passage in the Book of Mormon that prophesies that it will come forth and speak as if it were a familiar spirit, obviously meaning that it would be like the dead speaking, because it was written by people all long dead. A “familiar spirit” is a spirit of a dead person that someone like a medium consults. This kind of witchcraft (necromancy) is condemned in the Bible, and so some fundamentalist critic of Mormonism thought it was a good argument to say that Mormonism must be false because the Book of Mormon says familiar spirits are good. But the Book of Mormon actually says no such thing. It only says that the people who wrote the Book of Mormon would speak from the dead through its pages, LIKE a familiar spirit. It’s a simple (and rather obvious) simile–a literary device.

Now, look how much I had to write to clear up a single, stupid point like that. Anyone who actually wanted to understand Mormonism would not have posted anything like that. Instead, he would have:

a. noticed that there were no references in the charge, and dismissed it, or
b. asked someone knowledgeable what the charge was referring to, then looked up the references on the internet and decided that the charge was silly.

My guess is that most of the Mormons here (like Z) hang around because they notice that their faith gets discussed a lot here, and want to be a resource for people who actually want to know what we believe, instead of lob silly, time-wasting attacks. So if you don’t want your questions dismissed, take a little time to look into them and see if they are worth talking about.

 

[wmscott]

Consider the one about Mormons thinking that “familiar spirits” are good. This comes from a passage in the Book of Mormon that prophesies that it will come forth and speak as if it were a familiar spirit, obviously meaning that it would be like the dead speaking, because it was written by people all long dead. A “familiar spirit” is a spirit of a dead person that someone like a medium consults. This kind of witchcraft (necromancy) is condemned in the Bible, and so some fundamentalist critic of Mormonism thought it was a good argument to say that Mormonism must be false because the Book of Mormon says familiar spirits are good. But the Book of Mormon actually says no such thing. It only says that the people who wrote the Book of Mormon would speak from the dead through its pages, LIKE a familiar spirit. It’s a simple (and rather obvious) simile–a literary device.

Now, look how much I had to write to clear up a single, stupid point like that. Anyone who actually wanted to understand Mormonism would not have posted anything like that. Instead, he would have:

a. noticed that there were no references in the charge, and dismissed it, or
b. asked someone knowledgeable what the charge was referring to, then looked up the references on the internet and decided that the charge was silly.

My guess is that most of the Mormons here (like Z) hang around because they notice that their faith gets discussed a lot here, and want to be a resource for people who actually want to know what we believe, instead of lob silly, time-wasting attacks. So if you don’t want your questions dismissed, take a little time to look into them and see if they are worth talking about.

OK so what is the answer to post #45 as indicated below. I am curious as to what the answer is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerinus
These are a bunch of falsehoods and lies about Mormonism that you have invented yourself, and does not deserve a reply.

zerinus

Why does it not deserve a reply, I want to know

OK then let’s take just one of them for now from your own texts:

Mormons believe, the Heavenly Father came to earth and had physical, sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary. Rejecting both the testimony of Scripture (Luke 1:34-35) and the constant teaching of the Christian Church, Mormons believe Christ was conceived by the Father, and not by the Holy Spirit. (Journal of Discourses 2:268.)

The Journal of Discourses (often abbreviated J.D.) is a 26-volume collection of public sermons by early leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)

 

[BDawg]

What our feminist critics neglect to note is that Mormons believe that men cannot be exalted without women, rather than just the other way around.

Yes, we believe in “eternal families,” but not that any particular person is guaranteed to succeed at gaining a place in one.

Yes, we believe that God will sort everything out in cases where family members (such as abusive husbands) fail.

No, we don’t know how God will go about sorting such things out in such cases, but we believe that God is infinitely more just and good than we are, so we put our trust in Him.

This seems to me a bit like the Catholic teaching that nobody knows what will happen to unbaptized infants, but we can safely leave that to God, since he is just and loving. So it seems a little cheap to me to go around griping about all the problems that could come up in the afterlife with failed marriages, and such, when Mormons have no specific teaching about how God will sort things out (only that He will.) I’ve never heard Mormon women griping about it, after all–only non-Mormons who are looking for some cheap criticism to lob.