We Catholics confess to a priest who can never reveal what was said. Is a confession to your bishop the same?In LDS context, if the sin was serious enough that it harmed others or self in a significantly damaging way, such as breaking the commandment about adultery or fornication or breaking honesty laws of the land, then in that kind of case the person should confess the sin to their “bishop” who is called as a “common judge in Israel” and can assist in seeing when that person is restored to a purified relationship with Christ and can partake of communion worthily.
I have gone to several Mormon forums lately and have found the same. Many say they are agnostic or atheist now. It is truly sad.I have concerns for their souls as well. Especially since almost all of my family are Mormons. I can only trust in God’s Mercy and pray a lot. I also have a concern for the number of people, and large effort they make, to lead people out of Christianity and into their errors. Once in, it is very difficult to leave. And then a concern for those where the whole house of cards has tumbled. So many are left with nothing but an abused and battered soul. God and religion become then nothing more than things to be avoided at all costs, if only out of a sense of survival.
Joseph Smith & Co. will have a lot to answer for on judgment day.
You can only get an answer when you figure out how to nail jello to a wall.I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:
I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.
- Please define “Progression”.
- Please define “Salvation”.
- Please explain what one has to do with the other.
Thank you.
BartBurk,You can only get an answer when you figure out how to nail jello to a wall.
It is true that some Mormons seem able to transition from one church to another, but most of the ones that I know that have left that faith do seem to end up agnostic or atheist. For some reason, when they lose their faith in Mormonism they also lose their faith in God. This poses some very interesting questions on how best one can assist Mormons learn about the Catholic Church and its sister churches.I have gone to several Mormon forums lately and have found the same. Many say they are agnostic or atheist now. It is truly sad.
Did you mean if we do not teach with patience . . . ?It is true that some Mormons seem able to transition from one church to another, but most of the ones that I know that have left that faith do seem to end up agnostic or atheist. For some reason, when they lose their faith in Mormonism they also lose their faith in God. This poses some very interesting questions on how best one can assist Mormons learn about the Catholic Church and its sister churches.
Too often we go about repeating such sensational claims about Mormon history and its leaders that we succeed in causing a Mormon to leave their church and we also cause him to leave God completely. If we do teach with patience and love, proclaiming truth, we can do far more harm than any degree of good we accomplish.
Interestingly enough, I about fell out of my chair watching “The Journey Home” last night. The former Mormon, Barry, is a friend of mine. My younger brother was his sponsor for RCIA and Barry was an incredible help to us in the last days of my brother’s life. He died from cancer and there was a lot of pain involved. Barry’s new found faith in the Catholic Church was extraordinary and really helped all of us through that time.I watched a program on EWTN interviewing a former Mormon who is now Catholic…he had alot of difficulty seeing Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God, in part due to his own personal issues as well.
He did relay what has been said here…that the priesthood suddenly died out after the death of the last apostle, that the people were lost until Joseph Smith’s Mormonism came…as the true restoration, that they do have a polytheistic belief in 3 gods…that Jesus is more as a brother, concepts about Lucifer, Adam, that as we are corrupt, we do not have the Holy Spirit, that the sealed marriage lasts forever and that the man and woman become gods on their own planets.
Mormon teachings were pretty clear when I joined the Mormon Church 38 years ago. It is only in the last 20 or so years (since the death of Ezra Taft Benson) that it has been hard to figure out what Mormons claim to believe. They seem to be trying to leave some of their more controversial teachings behind – these are teachings that were common knowledge in 1972 such as the teaching that God was once a man with a Father who had a Father, etc. And nobody tried to nuance the teaching on the Godhead that Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three separate Beings and three separate Gods. I don’t remember anyone believing that Christ had always been a God. As McConkie taught, he progressed to become a God before he was born.BartBurk,
That’s because the Bible, and God speaking through Biblical prophets, doesn’t force belief and thus those sources allow for gradual understanding, such as why Jesus spoke in parables. It really is a case, as taught by Isaiah, of gaining “precept upon precept, line upon line”–but only as the person acts in a way that they “seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened.”
God does this perfectly (goes without saying). The Pharisees probably had a similar expression as “nailing jello to a wall” as they tried to “pin down” Christ’s teachings so they could turn around and contradict them.
I find that while many initially lose their faith in God, they eventually come back. I think it may be true that Internet Mormons seem to be atheist or agnostic, but I don’t think that is true if you look at the general Mormon population. The Internet Mormons sometimes make atheism their cause while many of the ex-Mormons simply quietly become Catholic or Baptist or Methodist. When these new Christian ex-Mormons jump on the internet they get hectored by the atheist ex-Mormons and get driven off of ex-Mormon sites, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t many who become Christian. I’m sure there is probably a social survey out there regarding this.It is true that some Mormons seem able to transition from one church to another, but most of the ones that I know that have left that faith do seem to end up agnostic or atheist. For some reason, when they lose their faith in Mormonism they also lose their faith in God. This poses some very interesting questions on how best one can assist Mormons learn about the Catholic Church and its sister churches.
Too often we go about repeating such sensational claims about Mormon history and its leaders that we succeed in causing a Mormon to leave their church and we also cause him to leave God completely. If we do teach with patience and love, proclaiming truth, we can do far more harm than any degree of good we accomplish.
Parker, I am sorry, but I don’t even know how to respond. I don’t mean to be uncharitable, but your answers are so vague and ambiguous that I find it impossible to know where to begin or even what to answer.Steve,
That indeed is one major purpose. Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
I agree with the teaching, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Not “ultimate”, but certainly living unselfishly and serving others with great love and compassion.
As I had noted, it is not a second chance if the person did not have a “fair” chance during their mortal life to understand what was offered. It has to do with getting a “fair” chance to really make the covenants of the gospel if the person would have desired those with all their heart had they known about them during their mortal life. That’s why it will have been important about “what they did with what they knew.” There is a spectrum of what people do with what they know–whether they stay stagnant, or progress in how they love others and how they show a sincere love for God.
I wasn’t referring to visiting with a therapist. I was referring to figuring out a root cause why one returns to doing what they had committed not to do when they repented. Often, the Savior can help the person through more sincere private prayer where they talk to the Lord about why they did what they did in a self-honest way, or using introspection or a combination of those actions where the person focuses on really being healed from their sin to not do it again.
It means that partaking communion really does require sincere repentance, and the bishops have a role of discernment so that people are ultimately counseled and cautioned not to partake unworthily since that is contrary to the scriptures to do that, and those particular sins require a greater change than just from one week to the next–they require a pattern of changed behavior.
It has to do with worthily partaking of communion, with the keys of the kingdom held by the apostles since the kingdom in that regard is “membership in the church”, and with following the scriptures–both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in those respects.
SteveVH,Parker, I am sorry, but I don’t even know how to respond. I don’t mean to be uncharitable, but your answers are so vague and ambiguous that I find it impossible to know where to begin or even what to answer.
We are saved by Jesus Christ, period. We become close to Him by turning from sin toward God. That is called conversion, not progression. Our eternal destiny is determined by our response to God’s grace in this life. Upon our death we will find ourselves in one of two places, heaven or hell. We may have to be purified in purgatory, but if we reach purgatory, we are guaranteed heaven. We do not continue to “progress” after this life in order to attain divinity. Our destiny is determined at the end of our earthly life. We will share in the life of the Trinity (the beatific vision), but will always remain creatures, even in our glorified state. We will not become gods who rule over our own worlds.
It seems that you can never put your finger on Mormon doctrine, especially as it relates to the nature of God and the nature of our salvation. Parker, you must focus on Jesus Christ and his saving grace. You will not save yourself by becoming a better person; by “progressing” to higher states of being. This places the focus on us, not on God. We should focus instead on the mercy and love of God and approach him in all humility for what He has done for us, not what we can do for ourselves.
TikiTokiguy,I spent two years in the church…
SteveVH,
Please be aware that I do focus on the Savior and His atoning grace. I don’t see how that is ambiguous, nor do I see why one would think, knowing the many scriptures that talk about repentance as something to be done, and the many scriptures that talk about putting on Christ and about the attributes that will be shown in the person when they do that (the New Testament is full of them)–why one would think there does not need to be some careful soul-searching and repentance done by a person very frequently after they have been “converted”.
The conversation with you has certainly identified a substantial and significant difference in beliefs about “progress” and about what Peter correctly called “partakers of the divine nature.” I know personal, heartfelt repentance is what leads to not having to even think about “Purgatory”–that is a non-issue, a non-Biblical doctrine.
But repentance is a thoroughly Biblical doctrine, and it does require personal vitality and introspection and life change, day by day, year by year. That would be defined in most people’s “book” as progress.
Parker,SteveVH,
Please be aware that I do focus on the Savior and His atoning grace. I don’t see how that is ambiguous, nor do I see why one would think, knowing the many scriptures that talk about repentance as something to be done, and the many scriptures that talk about putting on Christ and about the attributes that will be shown in the person when they do that (the New Testament is full of them)–why one would think there does not need to be some careful soul-searching and repentance done by a person very frequently after they have been “converted”.
The conversation with you has certainly identified a substantial and significant difference in beliefs about “progress” and about what Peter correctly called “partakers of the divine nature.” I know personal, heartfelt repentance is what leads to not having to even think about “Purgatory”–that is a non-issue, a non-Biblical doctrine.
But repentance is a thoroughly Biblical doctrine, and it does require personal vitality and introspection and life change, day by day, year by year. That would be defined in most people’s “book” as progress.
SteveVH,Parker,
Please tell me, in any post I have made, that I don’t believe repentance is important or necessary. You are deflecting the conversation to a subject that is not in question. It is your idea of progression and how it relates to salvation that is in question. It is how you understand the person of Jesus Christ and what his sacrifice has done for us that is in question.
Experiencing true conversion, an interior change, and therefore living a more Christ-like life is not in question. It is what we strive for each and every day. I don’t even know if you understand what true repentance entails. How do you repent, Parker?
If “confession” had no effect on one’s behavior, on one’s relationship with God, then I would agree that it would have little to do with repentance. But it does change one’s behavior and one’s relationship with God. Repentance requires acknowledgment one’s sins. Confession requires you to examine your conscience in detail. Have I offended God in any way? It reconciles us with God, which is the purpose of repentance, and infuses sanctifying grace into our souls, giving us strength to avoid temptation in the future.SteveVH,
The questions you have in your mind, I don’t have in my mind, at all. I informed you “how one repents” already during this conversation. You may go back and find it, early on.
I would be the one questioning your “definition” of repentance. It appears to me that we have substantially different definitions. I have explained how the atonement of Christ is central to repentance and gaining forgiveness from our sins. I have also explained how repentance means change in behavior, and that means growth–progress.
I would be totally content with the idea of “agreeing to disagree”, as I don’t think there is much further light to add or gain, unless it be just my getting a better understanding of your definition of “repentance” since I thought you were substantively writing that “repentance” means “confession”.
Peace to you, Steve.
Yes, progress, maybe. BUT progression to what? Salvation as we Catholics believe or godhood as Mormons believe. You try to use your terminology in such a way to try to lead us think we are saying the same thing, but you mean something totally different.SteveVH,
The questions you have in your mind, I don’t have in my mind, at all. I informed you “how one repents” already during this conversation. You may go back and find it, early on.
I would be the one questioning your “definition” of repentance. It appears to me that we have substantially different definitions. I have explained how the atonement of Christ is central to repentance and gaining forgiveness from our sins. I have also explained how repentance means change in behavior, and that means growth–progress.