Mormons: Can I get a straight answer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SteveVH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Parker,

You are taking John’s writings out of context.

The appearance of Christ…on the day of the Resurrection…and giving the power to the Apostles to forgive sins…that could not be done at the time of John’s.

John’s teachings are reflective of the place we are all to be in God…but it was not possible until after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ…these events breaking the power of sin and giving us new life.
 
Parker,

You are taking John’s writings out of context.

The appearance of Christ…on the day of the Resurrection…and giving the power to the Apostles to forgive sins…that could not be done at the time of John’s.

John’s teachings are reflective of the place we are all to be in God…but it was not possible until after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ…these events breaking the power of sin and giving us new life.
Kathleen,

John’s writings have their own context. What one needs to do is read all his writings to know and understand the context. This is a thing that is reasonable to do.
 
Kathleen,

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) “…we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” (1 John 2:1) Peace to you and all.
Very good Parker !👍 But One verse does not the teaching of Jesus, encompass, the entire text must be used in context all scripture.

For examples: Matt. 9: 6 But that you may know that the SON OF MAN has authority on earth to forgive sins" – he then said to the paralytic – “Rise, take up your bed and go home.”

John 20: 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

John 20: 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

2Cor 17: Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal THROUGH US. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

James 5: 13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.
14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven

James 5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects

Matt. 18: 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1John 5: 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

Peace
:coffee:🙂
 
Parker the Church was established by Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, not the poor soul over there. Or over there (its one on one / personal / also as a Community) This is why the Crucifix is front and center. This is the Priesthood, why we have the Church. It is better to think of yourself as the least among the others. This is where Jesus is always found. Where true peace reigns.

Parker, here is a good short read. Go directly to the page and read what the Church fathers had to say regarding the forgiveness of sins through the whole Church.

catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

**I have to ask again. What fruits can you see that can come out of the Sacrament of confession? **

Let me give you one that I have discovered.

In short it’s the line of Confession. Now a bit more detail:

We have a community penance service this Tuesday night to prepare us for Christ-mas .

We will have four or five Catholic Priest coming from different parts of Utah to be with us so that we have enough of them to hear our confessions. First we will confess together as a community, then we will each enter into a line. What has always struck me with awe is seeing the four our five lines with my peers in them waiting. I also love watching them come out. Some with smiles, some with tears. Then seeing them kneel in our Chapel under the Cross falling into prayer. I go with my wife and it is always a high point in the year.

I also go to confession when me and about 9 others stay at the Huntsville Monastery out of Ogden. This is the Priest I go to:

holytrinityabbey.org/store.html

Its always a joy with him. He kind of has is head down always in prayer peeking up at me with a smile of concern saying repeatedly “you know how much you are loved?” This man is a man of God and he does a fantastic job at connecting me to Jesus in a very special way. He does his job well as a Priest who helps Jesus, works for Jesus during Confession.

Confession from Catholic answers

http://www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12).

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God, who had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8; note the plural “men”). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.

Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done “in church,” as the Didache (A.D. 70) indicates.

Penances also tended to be performed before rather than after absolution, and they were much more strict than those of today (ten years’ penance for abortion, for example, was common in the early Church).

But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for “[w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor. 11:27).
 
Parker the Church was established by Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, not the poor soul over there. Or over there (its one on one / personal / …Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God, who had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8; note the plural “men”). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).
…for “[w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor. 11:27).

Catholic-RCIA,

Yes, He is a personal Savior, but He doesn’t do that “through the church”. He does that because He is the Redeemer and the Advocate with the Father: He has that authority to forgive sins. This is what He taught, over and over again during His ministry, by example.

You have changed the meaning from “apostles” to “his ministers”, and that is not shown in any scripture but is contrary to the binding and loosing authority given to the apostles who had it given to them only, and they didn’t pass it on because Christ didn’t tell them to pass it on.

But I agree with the 1 Cor. 11:27 passage, as I have already noted several times.
 
Parker,

The Catholic Church relates to Scripture as a whole…the salvation history for God’s people.

The problem with Sola Scriptura was taking parts away from the broader context…

What I shared with you was quite clear…It was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that enabled Him then to be able to institute the sacrament of confession.

And there was no ability by the apostles to do anything, until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost to anoint and empower them…Subsequently, all their actions were of God’s power and not their own, as well as how they continued to establish churches…and the Holy Spirit was imparted to these communities through the Apostles…the transmission of faith.

The coming of the Holy Spirit further enabled the apostles to look back at many things Christ did, as well as the ancient teachings of the Old Testament to give full light of meaning that was previously obscured before the completion of Christ’s mission on earth, – hermeneutics.

If the Holy Spirit only worked through the Apostles, then there is no church, no following, no subsequent generation of believers, a religion only for that specific time of Christ…so He is then no Savior or Redeemer…St. Paul spoke of the Christians of the future who were not blessed to live in those times…

There was no exit of the Holy Spirit…there was consecration in truth and spirit by the laying on of hands by the Apostles to their successors.
 
Catholic-RCIA,

Yes, He is a personal Savior, but He doesn’t do that “through the church”. He does that because He is the Redeemer and the Advocate with the Father: He has that authority to forgive sins. This is what He taught, over and over again during His ministry, by example.

You have changed the meaning from “apostles” to “his ministers”, and that is not shown in any scripture but is contrary to the binding and loosing authority given to the apostles who had it given to them only, and they didn’t pass it on because Christ didn’t tell them to pass it on.

But I agree with the 1 Cor. 11:27 passage, as I have already noted several times.
Parker … for Catholics Jesus is the Church. It is His body, we being parts of it. Adopted parts as this is the greatest gift to His Creation. Again it all comes down to the Holy Trinity, One God, On Spirit in which we have been gifted our lives. I have a great need for His Church, the healing Sacraments of Love Itself. Confession is a gift out of the Love that Jesus has for His Bride…the whole Church.

Again
What fruits can you see that Confession brings forth to a number of Catholics?

And getting back to a question I asked a few times, do you see the Catholic Saints as being sanctified by the Holy Spirit (God)? Can you see that the Sacrament of Confession plays a big role here?

What you are missing Parker is what many other sects are missing. The greatest gift given to us by Jesus. Its why the Church is still alive, still bringing hope to the entire world.
 
The point here is that Mormons as well as Muslims as well as Catholics and Protestants are not knowledgeable of early Christian history. The more we know the truth about the origins and development of Christianity, the greater our unity will be.
 
The point here is that Mormons as well as Muslims as well as Catholics and Protestants are not knowledgeable of early Christian history. The more we know the truth about the origins and development of Christianity, the greater our unity will be.
Absolutely
 
Parker … for Catholics Jesus is the Church. It is His body, we being parts of it. Adopted parts as this is the greatest gift to His Creation. Again it all comes down to the Holy Trinity, One God, On Spirit in which we have been gifted our lives. I have a great need for His Church, the healing Sacraments of Love Itself. Confession is a gift out of the Love that Jesus has for His Bride…the whole Church.

Again
  1. What fruits can you see that Confession brings forth to a number of Catholics?
  2. And getting back to a question I asked a few times, do you see the Catholic Saints as being sanctified by the Holy Spirit (God)? 3) Can you see that the Sacrament of Confession plays a big role here?
What you are missing Parker is what many other sects are missing. The greatest gift given to us by Jesus. Its why the Church is still alive, still bringing hope to the entire world.
Rich,
  1. If they are repentant and repenting, then I would hope that the “fruits” are that they change their lives and are inwardly better people, certainly with more love and forgiveness and compassion, but also with a greater determination to not commit the same sin again. Since I don’t have Catholic friends whom I have known in such a way to know of their repentance, then I have no way of knowing actual “fruits.”
2, 3) The men should have followed the commandment given to Adam, so it seems they had a disconnect if they didn’t do that during their life. (Namely, get married and thus have and be a “help meet.”) So they missed out if they didn’t.

As for those such as Mother Theresa, I don’t think confession had a role at all in how she became the compassionate person she was. (Repentance, yes.) The Holy Spirit isn’t needed to be compassionate or to be service-oriented, so it is not a case where the actions show that was the case, but I assume she did many times during her life.

As far as your other comments, they show some of why I would never even consider such non-Biblical beliefs. But to each their own…
 
Parker,

You are denying the great event of Jesus appearing to His apostles on the evening of His resurrection from the dead…This is most incredible and is a sign for all of us that in living with Christ, we will have eternal life with Him…to not be afraid of death…
This is in Scriptures, yet you ignore it…for Jesus to give the apostles the power to forgive sins, as Christ is in His resurrected state–Christ’s actions in this event are greater than John’s gospel of being mutually forgiving.

Being mutually forgiving is actualized in the living, sacramental life of Christ.

I do not see how anyone can deny Scripture when Christ gave His Apostles – the power to forgive sin…and then to brush it off…
 
Parker,

You are denying the great event of Jesus appearing to His apostles on the evening of His resurrection from the dead…
I do not see how anyone can deny Scripture when Christ gave His Apostles – the power to forgive sin…and then to brush it off…
Kathleen,
I don’t deny that at all. The apostles had a special, unique role as I have said repeatedly.
 
Parker wrote
“I don’t deny that at all. The apostles had a special, unique role as I have said repeatedly”

**I must admit I have learned more about my faith regarding confession as a Sacrament given to the Church at Pentecost. I now have a better grasp on how Protestants look at the scriptures and come to the conclusion that no where does it say that a Priest can forgive sins. They like Parker use the same analogy. The first red flag I see is not looking at the entire Bible as a Whole. We could change the title to …Repent . Repent . Repent **

**Parker is different because they do go to confession to a Bishop and it is the Bishop that forgives them or a council ie they get their recommend back upon this type of forgiveness in order to be able to go back into their Temple. **

This is what I would call precepts of men

**Parker says only God can forgive sins as Jesus is just the mediator, no one else. **
**Yet it is men in high positions that do this in His own faith life. **

**Yet Jesus Himself forgave sins as a man (Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God Himself so Jesus would not be able to forgive sins according to Parker, so disregarding the Scriptures Jesus in their mind can not do this) But Jesus did forgive sins as a Man and He did pass this healing power on to the Apostles / Church which were men. This part at least is very clear in the scriptures and in our lives as Christians. . **

So right there the Protestants and the LDS are taking the scriptures and making up their own conclusions/ Assuming in order to remain who they have chosen to be, to remain in the power they have chosen, in order for it to remain right. .

** Of course we believe in the Holy Trinity and know that Jesus is Lord and God…the eternal Son of the Father. So it was Jesus/ God the eternal son that gave the Apostles this power to bind and lose. Only God himself could do this. We also have Church Tradition to stand on. **

**Mormons have their own church tradition as well so when Parker says its not found in the Bible, where does it say that the Apostles handed on this power to bind and lose to the Ministers, to the Priest he is coming off in the light of the protestants, in a certain type of lie./ denial. He is taking off his Mormon lenses when it comes to the Catholic Church and not applying what he himself regards as truth. . **

**I have my own witness regarding the Sacrament of Confession to stand on since I have become Catholic and have witnessed the transformation that has taken place within me due to the Sacrament of Confession. The words that come to mind is Sanctifying Grace. **

**Every time I delve into Catholic History I can stand back and say “That makes perfect sense” This alone is a Miracle to me. **

Of course Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession on Pentecost. The fruits alone prove this out rite. Would you give the gift of unconditional love to your children only to take it away from your grand children? It would be insane to think Jesus only gave this healing power to the Apostles / Church only to have it die with them. Its what it is all about is it not? To forgive, to reconcile always? Why we have the Catholic Church!

**I have come to know the difference between going directly to God with my confessions which I know works because I know love. And then also going together as a whole Church, as a people of God. **

True Humility!

Continued…
 
**“**No you don’t have to do this, did God tell you to do this. You know that you can do this yourself, just go directly to God” ****

**Satan knows the power of this Sacrament and how it has held the Church together for 2 thousand years. It stops his spin on us, on each other, he hates it! **

You walk up to the one you hurt, because you are learning great humility, you say “I am sorry for hurting you, yes I talked about you to others and I know how wrong that was and how you have been hurt” You don’t try to weasel out of it or justify it. Do you know what this does? Do you know what this takes? To do it right? Showing your faults and facing up to them is refreshing to others, it broad sides most people. You find them saying its ok, I got over it. I appreciate you being so honest. Then this comes out. “I also have spoken bad about you”
**This is where a real relationship begins to unfold. This is a small part of the power of Confession. Trust me it works! **

**How do I know this? Because the Holy Spirit has shown me so many more sins that I did not know I had or avoided to the point of having myself believe they were not that bad, or just ignoring them altogether. Plus I do feel reunited to the Church as a Whole making Eucharist more alive for me and my soul. A good Confession and coming to the Lords table go hand in hand. **

**As a fairly new Catholic when I think of Confession I see this towering door in front of me. I feel like a little spec about 1” tall standing in front of it. It’s the same feeling I receive when I began my conversion. I was asked to take the gifts up to the Alter as a non Catholic. The walk up began my own conversion. I know something special was taking place. I wanted to know more. This was after I had been to Mass several times. **

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.” “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matt. 28:19–20).

Here are a few questions I found here at Catholic answers that I though should be shared.

**“I am a Protestant overwhelmed by the guilt of sin. Is it permissible for me to confess my sins to a priest? I think that I would stay more focused on staying closer to the Lord if I were accountable to a mature Christian. **


Catholics do not primarily go to confession to stay focused, though the sacrament can help in this way. We go to confession because we believe that our sins are absolutely forgiven by Christ’s absolution given through the ministry of the priest. When Jesus breathed on his apostles and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained” (John 20:22-24), we believe that he literally meant that. If you believe this also, then perhaps you need to be a Catholic. To believe that a Catholic priest has the power to forgive sin when one’s own minister does not suggests that one is acknowledging some faith in the Catholic Church. Maybe you are closer to becoming one than you think. As it stands, one must hold the teachings of the Catholic Church to partake of its sacraments.

**How does the Catholic Church understand the meaning of “bind and loose” in Matthew 16:19, where Jesus says: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”? **

During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God. (CCC 1443)
In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins, the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. (CCC 1444)
The words bind and loose mean: Whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God. (CCC 1445)
 
Thank you, Rich.

Parker,

The whole mission of Christ was to break sin and give us new life.

He gave the Apostles the power to break sin…because He was going to be glorified in heaven. So He needed human representatives here on earth to.

To deny that confession stopped with the apostles is to imply that Jesus left without extending His mission to free us from sin through the Apostolic succession.

Remember, I gave you a piece on how Mass was said in Rome in 155 AD…good order in contrast to the unruliness of the beginning churches…how did that good order come about…through lawful Church authority…and the behaviors at Mass were very united throughout the world at that time…
.
 
Parker,

The whole mission of Christ was to break sin and give us new life.
Kathleen,
Yes, this first sentence is correct.
He gave the Apostles the power to break sin…because He was going to be glorified in heaven.
No, this is incorrect. He can and does still “break sin” from His place in heaven.
So He needed human representatives here on earth to.
Do you think He is still living, or not? Do you think He is really omnipotent, or not? (He didn’t “need” what you are writing that He “needed”, unless you are answering those two questions with a “no” answer.)
To deny that confession stopped with the apostles
I never even agreed that confession “started” with the apostles. The verse in John doesn’t say that confession started with the apostles at that point, at all.
is to imply that Jesus left without extending His mission to free us from sin through the Apostolic succession.
Well, He did “leave without” doing what you ascribed to Him. The “apostolic succession” doesn’t do that, at all.
Remember, I gave you a piece on how Mass was said in Rome in 155 AD.
Yes, and I explained that if translated correctly that Justin was already writing about a convoluted belief that was non-Biblical.
…and the behaviors at Mass were very united throughout the world at that time…
.

Which is why the church was already no longer authorized to perform the ordinances of salvation. Because they had “changed the ordinances” as prophesied by Isaiah.
.
 
Christ’s death on the cross broke the power of sin. And His grace is sufficient if we draw on Him to avoid sin.

We grow in the Lord. Most people do not become highly virtuous Christians; there a few people who have remarkable conversions…and are thus inclined not to sin much. But all of us are in need of our Savior and His redeeming grace every day.

You can’t call the universal practice of the Mass in ancient times as convoluted.
 
Christ’s death on the cross broke the power of sin. And His grace is sufficient if we draw on Him to avoid sin.

We grow in the Lord. Most people do not become highly virtuous Christians; there a few people who have remarkable conversions…and are thus inclined not to sin much. But all of us are in need of our Savior and His redeeming grace every day.

You can’t call the universal practice of the Mass in ancient times as convoluted.
Kathleen,
I was writing specifically about the words used by Justin to describe his beliefs. That was a convoluted description of communion, unless he has been mistranslated. It is simply non-Biblical to describe it in the way his words have been translated.
 
Kathleen,
I was writing specifically about the words used by Justin to describe his beliefs. That was a convoluted description of communion, unless he has been mistranslated. It is simply non-Biblical to describe it in the way his words have been translated.
Saint Justin was describing the mass that Jesus instituted at the last supper. We as Catholics do what Jesus commanded. If you are looking for Biblical scriptures that support this go to the words of Jesus at the last supper, When He said do this in memory of me this is what we have done for 2000 years. It might help if you were to attend a Mass. Have you Parker ever been to Christ-mass / Christmas? This would be a good one to attend. I attended my very first Christmas 12 years ago when I became Catholic.

***St. Justin describes the Mass. (The year is 150 A.D.; he is a martyr who was beheaded in 165 at Rome Italy) ***

“The people gathered together on Sunday, the ‘Lord’s Day’ participated in prayers and hymns, and listened to readings from the Old Testament and from the writings of the apostles. Then as always, bread and wine and water were offered and the words of Jesus at the Last Supper were prayed by the one presiding. The people received the body and blood of Christ, and the Holy Communion was brought to the sick. A collection was taken for the poor and the needy.”
St. Paul*** wrote***: “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (1 Cor 11:26) He also wrote: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12).

Through the centuries, the Mass has remained fully intact. The Mass takes place every 2 minutes somewhere on the earth, 7 days a week, all year long except on Good Friday
(1 Cor 11:26).

St. Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans on the Mass. (The year is 110 A.D.)

He became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. He wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not profess that the Eucharist (Jn 6:66) is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
It is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is the sign given as you contemplate all of chapter 6 in John’s gospel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top