Mormons confessing to their bishops?

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zerinus said:
The point is that Jesus gave that as a test by which we can determine a true prophet from a false one. We judge them by their “fruits” (moral behavior). If we determine by that means that they are true prophets, then that means that they are true prophets of a true religion, right? They cannot be true prophets of a false religion. Prey tell me how somebody can be a true prophet, but of a false religion? :confused:
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I think that is a question you need to asking of yourself, rather than of Catholics. Or do you really believe that Joseph Smith was a moral man?

How many wives of other men did he seduce again, in the name of religion?
 
zerinus said:
The point is that Jesus gave that as a test by which we can determine a true prophet from a false one. We judge them by their “fruits” (moral behavior). If we determine by that means that they are true prophets, then that means that they are true prophets of a true religion, right? They cannot be true prophets of a false religion. Prey tell me how somebody can be a true prophet, but of a false religion? :confused:

zerinus
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So everyone who lives a moral life is a true prophet from God? I find that hard to believe.

But the problem here is you are saying the Jesus is talking about leading a moral life. Actually, Jesus is talking about those who preach a false doctrine bear corrupt fruit.
 
MHalsey said:
So everyone who lives a moral life is a true prophet from God? I find that hard to believe.
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I didn’t say that, neither did Jesus. Why do you have to twist peoples’ words? Jesus was referring to those who claim to be prophets. He said, “When somebody comes to you, claiming (or pretending, as the case may be) to be a prophet, how do you prove him? You prove him by his fruits (moral actions)”. That is what Jesus was in effect saying. Well, do LDS claim to be prophets? They do! Are their leaders prophets? They are! Are the members prophets? They are! Do they have the spirit of prophecy? They do! They claim to have the testimony of Jesus, which is what the spirit of prophecy is (Revelation 19:10). So we apply Jesus’ test. Do they bear good fruit? They do! Are they prophets? They are! Does that mean they are true prophets? It does! Does that mean that their religion must be true? It does! Why? Because if they are true prophets, they must be true prophets of a true religion. They can’t be true prophets of a false religon. Comprehende? Did you get it this time?

zerinus
 
This very much struck me as I read some of the postings here. It has been spoke about. The Mormons get a peek into Christianity here and there. It’s all pieces of the Catholic Church distorted. For instance, communion for them reminds me of when when a child dresses like a doctor or a nurse but really does not understand what it means to be a doctor or a nurse so they play act. Tithing is the same, confessing to a Bishop is the same. But they just will not get it. Only if they really want to, have a desire to find out. I did. There system is very Jewish in way of life as to the law.
In the Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector (Luke 18:10-14) the Pharisee was an honest man and very religious. Note that he fasted twice a week. According to Jewish law only one day in the year was an obligatory fast day. He paid tithes on his income, i.e. gave away 10%. He was probably much more religious than any of us. However he was proud, he was using religion to box God in. He was using his religious practices to keep God at a distance. It is easier to give donations than to love. When we give a donation it is over quickly but there is no end to loving others. God is asking us to love, it would be easier to give an offering. Being better than others is not what matters but becoming more like God. The prayer of the tax collector reminds me of the prayer of the Mass “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed”. The parable calls us to be humble, let God be God and not pretend we are God.
“The proud cannot bring themselves to hold out empty hands to God, they insist on offering virtues, good works, self denials, anything in order not to have nothing. They want to be beautiful for him from their own resources, whereas we are beautiful only because God looks on us and makes us beautiful. God cannot give himself to us unless our hands are empty to receive him. The deepest reason why so few of us are saints is because we will not let God love us. To be loved means a naked, defenceless surrender to all God is. It means a glad acceptance of our nothingness, a look fixed only on the God who gives, taking no account of the nothing to whom the gift is made. To lose ourselves like this is the most radical of ideals because the last shred of self-importance is discarded. Jesus came to us precisely to break down the bars, something we could never have done of ourselves. Yet we cannot live the life of Jesus unless we consent to leave our own pitiful lives behind, and this is what pride finds unendurable, unbearable. Striving for ‘perfection’ is the most disastrous of the mistakes good people fall into. It feeds the very vice it intends to destroy. Most fervent souls are prepared to give God any mortal thing, work themselves to death, anything except the one thing he wants, total trust: anything but surrender into his loving hands.
(above paragraph taken from Guidelines for Mystical Prayer pages 83-84 by Ruth Burrows, published and copyright 1976 by Sheed and Ward and used by permission of the publishers.)

www.utahmission.com
 
zerinus said:
I didn’t say that, neither did Jesus. Why do you have to twist peoples’ words? Jesus was referring to those who claim to be prophets. He said, “When somebody comes to you, claiming (or pretending, as the case may be) to be a prophet, how do you prove him? You prove him by his fruits (moral actions)”. That is what Jesus was in effect saying. Well, do LDS claim to be prophets? They do! Are their leaders prophets? They are! Are the members prophets? They are! Do they have the spirit of prophecy? They do! They claim to have the testimony of Jesus, which is what the spirit of prophecy is (Revelation 19:10). So we apply Jesus’ test. Do they bear good fruit? They do! Are they prophets? They are! Does that mean they are true prophets? It does! Does that mean that their religion must be true? It does! Why? Because if they are true prophets, they must be true prophets of a true religion. They can’t be true prophets of a false religon. Comprehende? Did you get it this time?

zerinus
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As I recall, didn’t the Prophet Joseph Smith teach something to the effect of the moon is inhabited by Quakers that live to be 1,000 years old? Didn’t the Prophet Brigham Young teach that the sun is inhabited? Also, I understand that the Book of Abraham, which is Mormon scripture translated from Reformed Egyptian by the Prophet Joseph Smith, has some serious issues.

Sorry dude, but I can’t buy into these guys being prophets; trolling for profits maybe, but certainly not carrying any sort of valid ecclesiastic prophecy. That’s not to say that Mormonism has not largely evolved into a reasonably moral ecclesial community; but I thinks that’s occurred IN SPITE of those guys, rather than because of anything they taught.
 
RC_Matt said:
As I recall, didn’t the Prophet Joseph Smith teach something to the effect of the moon is inhabited by Quakers that live to be 1,000 years old? Didn’t the Prophet Brigham Young teach that the sun is inhabited? Also, I understand that the Book of Abraham, which is Mormon scripture translated from Reformed Egyptian by the Prophet Joseph Smith, has some serious issues.

Sorry dude, but I can’t buy into these guys being prophets; trolling for profits maybe, but certainly not carrying any sort of valid ecclesiastic prophecy. That’s not to say that Mormonism has not largely evolved into a reasonably moral ecclesial community; but I thinks that’s occurred IN SPITE of those guys, rather than because of anything they taught.
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You are again ignoring the “fruits” criterion. If Mormonism was evil, it could not bring forth good fruit:

Matthew 12:

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

zerinus
 
why_me said:
Of course you do realize that these quotations that you posted could be turned right back on you. And that is the point. Plus, we now have Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Bayless Conley etc…and they also ravening wolves, leading people away? Some may say yes. And what about the pope? Could someone claim those quotations for the pope? Perhaps so if they wish to.
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However this quote was for the people of the Church that Christ started.
 
zerinus said:
You are again ignoring the “fruits” criterion. If Mormonism was evil, it could not bring forth good fruit:

Matthew 12:

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

zerinus
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Nice use of Scripture. The only problem is that you Mormons don’t believe in the Scripture so by your interpretation it is already wrong and your interpretation of the Scripture doesn’t mean anything anyways.

Besides you took this quote way out of context. The point was that Christ was saying how ones actions will determine weather they are good or not. Not that any church that springs up that has good members is good. Most Hindus are kind people however does that lead us to believe their religion is true. No.

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30)
 
zerinus said:
You are again ignoring the “fruits” criterion. If Mormonism was evil, it could not bring forth good fruit:

zerinus
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Nobody has said Mormonism is evil. Seriously in error and blasphemous from a Christian perspective, yes; evil , no. I’ve known good Mormons, just as I have known good Buddhists, good Moslems, good Jews and good Christians. That has nothing to do with the validity of any theological dogma. We are ALL God’s children, made in His image, and I think most of us are inherently decent and try to behave that way most of the time.

My point is that key Mormon prophets have taught some stuff that’s pretty far out there and, as a result, I would believe any of their “special” teachings about as far as I could throw a grand piano; and I certainly would not consider them prophets, nor consider any organization they founded “the one true church.” On the other hand, if YOU have found that your faith community brings you closest to God and helps you to live a reasonably Christ-like life; then that’s a good thing and the nature of the unique peripheral dogma doesn’t really matter. It does NOT however, make you any “holier” or any “righter” or any “better” than the rest of us. It does NOT give you the right to come to my door and try to convert my children with half-truths and blatant lies.

What you MAY not understand is a fundamental difference between Mormon eschatology and that espoused by the Catholic Church (and most mainstream Christian denominations). Mormons teach exclusive salvation, that is only temple worthy Mormons, who know the handshakes and passwords, and have the permission of Joseph Smith, can spend the eternity in the presence of God (i.e., the celestial heaven). Catholicism teaches universal salvation through explicit and implicit acceptance of Christ. Basically, anybody who makes a genuine effort to live in accordance with Chirst’s teachings, virtually all of which come from love your neighbor as yourself, is “saved” and goes to heaven (we only have one). Through implicit acceptance of Christ, this includes “good” Mormons, Buddhists, Moslems, Jews – even pagans, agnostics and atheists. Nothing else even makes sense! Do you really think that God is going to banish billions and billions of souls off to some second or third class heaven, away from His eternal presence? You really think He wants to spend eternity in the exclusive company of Mormons? I don’t think so, that would probably suck pretty bad.
 
zerinus said:
I didn’t say that, neither did Jesus. Why do you have to twist peoples’ words? Jesus was referring to those who claim to be prophets. He said, “When somebody comes to you, claiming (or pretending, as the case may be) to be a prophet, how do you prove him? You prove him by his fruits (moral actions)”. That is what Jesus was in effect saying. Well, do LDS claim to be prophets? They do! Are their leaders prophets? They are! Are the members prophets? They are! Do they have the spirit of prophecy? They do! They claim to have the testimony of Jesus, which is what the spirit of prophecy is (Revelation 19:10). So we apply Jesus’ test. Do they bear good fruit? They do! Are they prophets? They are! Does that mean they are true prophets? It does! Does that mean that their religion must be true? It does! Why? Because if they are true prophets, they must be true prophets of a true religion. They can’t be true prophets of a false religon. Comprehende? Did you get it this time?

zerinus
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I think the problem here is you think living a moral or virtuous life is the fruit Jesus is speaking about. In my opinion, Jesus is saying beware of those that come to you in sheep’s clothing (living a moral life) for inside they are ravening wolves. A false prophet wraps himself in this type of “sheep’s clothing” to deceive you into believing everything the preaches.
 
MHalsey said:
I think the problem here is you think living a moral or virtuous life is the fruit Jesus is speaking about. In my opinion, Jesus is saying beware of those that come to you in sheep’s clothing (living a moral life) for inside they are ravening wolves. A false prophet wraps himself in this type of “sheep’s clothing” to deceive you into believing everything the preaches.
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You have turned the word of the Lord completely on its head. For this evil you shall have your reward:

Isaiah 5:

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
You have turned the word of the Lord completely on its head. For this evil you shall have your reward:

Isaiah 5:

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

zerinus
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WOW!!!
 
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