Mormons: Did Christ need to be saved?

[ParkerD]

… well, we’re left with what SteveVH said earlier: the answer to the question “Did Christ need to be saved” varies depending upon which Mormon you ask.

Cradle2Grave,

What happened is that SteveVH worded the question he asked in a way that either shows he doesn’t understand what “be saved” means, doesn’t understand the Savior’s mission, or didn’t understand Elder McConkie’s talk which does not answer that question, at all, nor imply an answer to that question.

If you think it’s important, let me know and I can take a survey of 100 Latter-day Saints, or 200, and tell them a Catholic has asked “Did Christ need to be saved according to Latter-day Saints’ beliefs?” and ask their answer and there will be not one of them who responds “yes, Christ needed to be saved”. (One of the choices for a response could be, “you’re kidding, right?” because I think it would surprise them that a Catholic would come up with that kind of a question, even given Elder McConkie’s talk as the background for the question.)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Cradle2Grave,

What happened is that SteveVH worded the question he asked in a way that either shows he doesn’t understand what “be saved” means, doesn’t understand the Savior’s mission, or didn’t understand Elder McConkie’s talk which does not answer that question, at all, nor imply an answer to that question.

But in his talk he specifically said:

Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father

After the Son of God “made flesh” his “tabernacle,” and while he “dwelt among the sons of men”; after he left his preexistent glory as we all do at birth; after he was born of Mary in Bethlehem of Judea–after all this he was called upon to work out his own salvation.

So Christ was called upon to work out his own salvation, just as we are. Why would God work out His own salvation?

 

[ParkerD]

But in his talk he specifically said:

So Christ was called upon to work out his own salvation, just as we are. Why would God work out His own salvation?

Z,

So I have wondered this:

Do Catholics believe that they “work out their own salvation”?

 

[Telstar]

Z,

So I have wondered this:

Do Catholics believe that they “work out their own salvation”?

**Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Philippians, Chapter 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. **

Yes, we do. Jesus opened the door, but we still have to ‘walk the walk’, along the Way of the Cross, to get through the door. But, Jesus is God Almighty. He has never needed to ‘work out His salvation’. He came down from Heaven to bring salvation to us, not to find it or earn it for Himself. Anyone that thinks Jesus needed to work out His own salvation, hasn’t got a clue who Jesus really is.
John 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father?

Do Mormons think this just means that Jesus ***looks like ***His Father?

 

[ParkerD]

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Philippians, Chapter 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Yes, we do. Jesus opened the door, but we still have to ‘walk the walk’, along the Way of the Cross, to get through the door. But, Jesus is God Almighty. He has never needed to ‘work out His salvation’. He came down from Heaven to bring salvation to us, not to find it or earn it for Himself. Anyone that thinks Jesus needed to work out His own salvation, hasn’t got a clue who Jesus really is.
John 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. [9] Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, shew us the Father?

Do Mormons think this just means that Jesus ***looks like ***His Father?

Telstar,

No–it has triple meaning–that He did exactly as He knew His Father would have done in like circumstances, that He looked exactly like His Father (Paul wrote “in the express image”), and that those who came to know Jesus as the divine Son of God, thereby knew the Father because He and the Father are so alike They are One and so full of love that their love is felt as One united love.

The expression “needed to work out His own salvation” is not what Elder McConkie said.

He used a past tense phrase: “worked out His own salvation”.

It is saying a very similar thing as what Christ said as recorded in John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day.” It is also saying a similar thing as Luke described in Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” It is saying that Jesus made decisions during His life on earth, that He thought with His mind, and that when He wept it was out of genuine feelings.

It is saying He increased in wisdom because He worked at increasing in wisdom–not because wisdom descended upon Him without any effort on His part. He was perfect in doing that, and perfect in obeying His Father’s will and knowing His Father’s will. He had the power to resurrect Himself because He is God the Son and also because He was absolutely, completely perfect and sinless and had the power within His body to resurrect Himself. If He had not “worked the works of him that sent [Him],” then He would not have had the power within Himself to resurrect Himself, nor to be the source of the power to resurrect us–so by showing through His resurrection that He indeed came forth from the grave as He had promised He would do, He showed that He was the first fruits of the resurrection and the first fruits of eternal life–which means His perfection was absolutely required for Him to do these things, and He made perfect decisions during the course of His life on earth that were part of His “work”. He had “descended below all things”, and now He ascended to His throne of glory through the power of His own resurrection, which power He had within Himself.

 

[zaffiroborant]

zaffiroborant;8422570:

But in his talk he specifically said:

So Christ was called upon to work out his own salvation, just as we are

. Why would God work out His own salvation?Z,

So I have wondered this:

Do Catholics believe that they “work out their own salvation”?

It seems I said just that in my quote. Why do you answer with a question, and one that was already answered in the post to which you were responding?

On a side note have you read the stickied thread at the top titled “Important Forum Information”?

 

[ParkerD]

Telstar,

No–it has triple meaning–that He did exactly as He knew His Father would have done in like circumstances, that He looked exactly like His Father (Paul wrote “in the express image”), and that those who came to know Jesus as the divine Son of God, thereby knew the Father because He and the Father are so alike They are One and so full of love that their love is felt as One united love.

The expression “needed to work out His own salvation” is not what Elder McConkie said.

He used a past tense phrase: “worked out His own salvation” and the phrase “called upon to work out His own salvation”.

It is saying a very similar thing as what Christ said as recorded in John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day.” It is also saying a similar thing as Luke described in Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” It is saying that Jesus made decisions during His life on earth, that He thought with His mind, and that when He wept it was out of genuine feelings.

It is saying He increased in wisdom because He worked at increasing in wisdom–not because wisdom descended upon Him without any effort on His part. He was perfect in doing that, and perfect in obeying His Father’s will and knowing His Father’s will. He had the power to resurrect Himself because He is God the Son and also because He was absolutely, completely perfect and sinless and had the power within His body to resurrect Himself. If He had not “worked the works of him that sent [Him],” then He would not have had the power within Himself to resurrect Himself, nor to be the source of the power to resurrect us–so by showing through His resurrection that He indeed came forth from the grave as He had promised He would do, He showed that He was the first fruits of the resurrection and the first fruits of eternal life–which means His perfection was absolutely required for Him to do these things, and He made perfect decisions during the course of His life on earth that were part of His “work”. He had “descended below all things”, and now He ascended to His throne of glory through the power of His own resurrection, which power He had within Himself.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Telstar,

The expression “needed to work out His own salvation” is not what Elder McConkie said.

He used a past tense phrase: “worked out His own salvation”.

And “needed” is in the past tense also.

It is saying a very similar thing as what Christ said as recorded in John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day.” It is also saying a similar thing as Luke described in Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” It is saying that Jesus made decisions during His life on earth, that He thought with His mind, and that when He wept it was out of genuine feelings.

It is saying He increased in wisdom because He worked at increasing in wisdom–not because wisdom descended upon Him without any effort on His part. He was perfect in doing that, and perfect in obeying His Father’s will and knowing His Father’s will. He had the power to resurrect Himself because He is God the Son and also because He was absolutely, completely perfect and sinless and had the power within His body to resurrect Himself. If He had not “worked the works of him that sent [Him],” then He would not have had the power within Himself to resurrect Himself, nor to be the source of the power to resurrect us–so by showing through His resurrection that He indeed came forth from the grave as He had promised He would do, He showed that He was the first fruits of the resurrection and the first fruits of eternal life–which means His perfection was absolutely required for Him to do these things, and He made perfect decisions during the course of His life on earth that were part of His “work”. He had “descended below all things”, and now He ascended to His throne of glory through the power of His own resurrection, which power He had within Himself.

And all this is how Christ worked out his own salvation. You still haven’t said anything that makes sense of the statement “Christ worked out his own salvation”

 

[rainman10]

And “needed” is in the past tense also.

And all this is how Christ worked out his own salvation. You still haven’t said anything that makes sense of the statement “Christ worked out his own salvation”

I just don’t get it, I must be really dense!! If God and Jesus were men walking on earth or on an earth, just like us, and then progressed to godhood, then didn’t they both have to work out their own salvation??

 

[ParkerD]

…
And all this is how Christ worked out his own salvation. You still haven’t said anything that makes sense of the statement “Christ worked out his own salvation”

To Zaffiroborant but also to all other readers:

I guess I’ve learned not to expect Catholics to find a similar understanding from teachings in the Bible that I glean when I read those teachings, nor do I expect to be able to bring about a “meeting of the minds” on this subject, either.

When I read and re-read Hebrews 2 through Hebrews 5, I find it reiterated several times that passages such as “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” (5:8, 9) make clear that Jesus Christ “learned”, that he “worked” “in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted” (2:18), and
“For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,…” (Hebrews 2:9, 10)

I think Paul was very familiar with understanding that Jesus Christ condescended when He came to this earth and fulfilled His mission, and that His compassion for us is a complete, all-encompassing compassion that includes His being able to understand and comprehend our weaknesses because He understood what it was like to feel those weaknesses, and even learned to understand their compounded effects as He suffered the atonement and did it all for us.

Then, when He had suffered all that, and when He had truly been victorious over all things that could be inflicted upon Him from whatever source including feeling our weaknesses and all our pains and sorrows, He still had the power because He had been perfect in all those sufferings, to resurrect Himself and return to His Father in perfect glory. He had “trodden the winepress alone”. (Isaiah 63:3)

It was a work that He alone could do, and He did it perfectly because of His perfect love for us and His perfect love for His Father.

 

[ParkerD]

I just don’t get it, I must be really dense!! If God and Jesus were men walking on earth or on an earth, just like us, and then progressed to godhood, then didn’t they both have to work out their own salvation??

Rainman10,

The issue is Jesus’ condescension and what it means that He condescended. The issue is not “progressed to godhood” because I think at least we agree that He really did become “God with us” in that He was already God before He came to this earth.

But yet, He did “progress” as a child (Luke 2:52) so if in your mind that means He “progressed” back to Godhood, then I guess that is a way of looking at it or describing the quality of having “condescended”.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Cradle2Grave,

If you think it’s important, let me know and I can take a survey of 100 Latter-day Saints, or 200, and tell them a Catholic has asked “Did Christ need to be saved according to Latter-day Saints’ beliefs?” and ask their answer and there will be not one of them who responds “yes, Christ needed to be saved”.

Yes, I would absolutely like you to take a survey of 200 members of the LDS Church. Thank you for offering; I’m very much looking forward to the day you publish the results.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Telstar,

The expression “needed to work out His own salvation” is not what Elder McConkie said.

He used a past tense phrase: “worked out His own salvation”.

It is saying a very similar thing as what Christ said as recorded in John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day.” It is also saying a similar thing as Luke described in Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” It is saying that Jesus made decisions during His life on earth, that He thought with His mind, and that when He wept it was out of genuine feelings.

Again, Parker, you are, as usual, creating a storm of loosely-connected ideas that have a tangential connection at best to the subject at had in order to confuse the real issue. Whether McConkie said “needed” or not is, like the alleged similarity between “salvation” and “exaltation” is irrelevant. What’s relevant, and what makes McConkie’s statement and Mormon theology so contradictory to the basic tenets of Christianity is that Christ’s work was “his own” or in any way “for himself.” Yes, He did “the work” the Father sent Him to do. But absolutely did not do it for himself.

 

[Stephen168]

If you think it’s important, let me know and I can take a survey of 100 Latter-day Saints, or 200, and tell them a Catholic has asked “Did Christ need to be saved according to Latter-day Saints’ beliefs?” and ask their answer and there will be not one of them who responds “yes, Christ needed to be saved”.

For the first question, “did Jesus need salvation”? Strictly speaking, **yes, He did **(and this is from my understanding of Mormon doctrine).

 

[SteveVH]

Cradle2Grave,

What happened is that SteveVH worded the question he asked in a way that either shows he doesn’t understand what “be saved” means, doesn’t understand the Savior’s mission, or didn’t understand Elder McConkie’s talk which does not answer that question, at all, nor imply an answer to that question.

If you think it’s important, let me know and I can take a survey of 100 Latter-day Saints, or 200, and tell them a Catholic has asked “Did Christ need to be saved according to Latter-day Saints’ beliefs?” and ask their answer and there will be not one of them who responds “yes, Christ needed to be saved”. (One of the choices for a response could be, “you’re kidding, right?” because I think it would surprise them that a Catholic would come up with that kind of a question, even given Elder McConkie’s talk as the background for the question.)

I will not insult you by repeating again the very words of Elder McConkie. Suffice it to say that he very clearly said that Christ was called upon to work out his own salvation. These are strange words indeed, if one does not believe that Christ was in need of salvation. In Elder McConkie’s position he has a responsibility to speak clearly and accurately. As I also said, Parker, I am not here to purposely misrepresent some Mormon view. I brought up the question because of the words I read. I didn’t make them up.

You accuse me of ignorance as to the meaning of “being saved”, or as to the “Savior’s mission”, or that I just didn’t grasp McConkie’s talk. As to the Mormon definition of “salvation” or of the “Savior’s mission” I would readily agree, which is why the thread was started to begin with. McConkie has spoken for himself already. I am very certain of my own understanding of these issues, Parker. It is comments like McConkie’s that make me question the Mormon understanding of these issues; thus, the purpose of this thread.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

No–it has triple meaning–that He did exactly as He knew His Father would have done in like circumstances, that He looked exactly like His Father (Paul wrote “in the express image”), and that those who came to know Jesus as the divine Son of God, thereby knew the Father because He and the Father are so alike They are One and so full of love that their love is felt as One united love.

Translation: “He came and did exactly what his father had already done before him, in order for him to progress toward becoming a powerful god, too.”

Parker, there is no separation between the Father and the Son. They are One God. That’s why when you look at the Son, you also see the Father. They don’t have separate ‘bodies’ that just happen to look alike, as other fathers and sons sometimes do. God only has One physical Body, and that’s the Son, Jesus Christ. That’s part of the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God can be in a million different places at one time. That’s what we mean when we say He is Omnipresent, that He is everywhere in the universe. There is no place that He is not present in some way. He can be both in Heaven ***and ***on earth, at the very same time. He is also Omnipotent and Omniscient. He can do anything and everything at the same time.

The expression “needed to work out His own salvation” is not what Elder McConkie said.

He used a past tense phrase: “worked out His own salvation”.

This is a typical response that I have often seen in LDS apologetics. It’s the fine art of ‘dancing with words’ in order to claim that someone is ‘reading it wrong’ (aka, they aren’t smart or ‘enlightened’ enough to understand it ‘correctly’). It’s an insult to anyone that doesn’t seem to ‘get it’.

It is saying a very similar thing as what Christ said as recorded in John 9:4 “I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day.” It is also saying a similar thing as Luke described in Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” It is saying that Jesus made decisions during His life on earth, that He thought with His mind, and that when He wept it was out of genuine feelings.

In John 9:4, Jesus was referring to the fact that this blind man was created by God as a means for Jesus to show the world that He was truly God. By healing the man’s blindness, which is symbolic of Jesus opening the spiritual eyes of all mankind to recognize Him as the true Son of God that was sent to be the Light of the world, Jesus was giving us an example of His true power. Those were the ‘works’ that He was ‘sent’ to accomplish for our salvation.

Luke 2:52 is referring to His physical growth and maturity on earth, that was the same way as any other human being grows from the age of 12 to adulthood. Again, it has absolutely no real bearing on the meaning that you imply it to have because it has nothing to do with ‘working out his salvation’ in any way.

It is saying He increased in wisdom because He worked at increasing in wisdom–not because wisdom descended upon Him without any effort on His part. He was perfect in doing that, and perfect in obeying His Father’s will and knowing His Father’s will. He had the power to resurrect Himself because He is God the Son and also because He was absolutely, completely perfect and sinless and had the power within His body to resurrect Himself. If He had not “worked the works of him that sent [Him],” then He would not have had the power within Himself to resurrect Himself, nor to be the source of the power to resurrect us–so by showing through His resurrection that He indeed came forth from the grave as He had promised He would do, He showed that He was the first fruits of the resurrection and the first fruits of eternal life–which means His perfection was absolutely required for Him to do these things, and He made perfect decisions during the course of His life on earth that were part of His “work”. He had “descended below all things”, and now He ascended to His throne of glory through the power of His own resurrection, which power He had within Himself.

He was perfect long before He ever did any of those things. They had absolutely no effect on His Own perfection in the least. He was always perfect. He didn’t need to accomplish any of those things in order to resurrect Himself, either, because He was always God from the beginning. His power as God was never ‘conditional’ on anything that He did on this earth. He is/was/always will be GOD. He created the universe and everything in it, and He had/has everlasting power over all of it, forever. Nothing that He ever did as Man on this earth had any effect on His power, whatsoever.

 

[truthsave]

Before becoming Christian, eastern Orthodox, my wife has been a mormon all her life, went to temple, wearing garmets, paying the dime even in very poor period of her life, she went on a mission, so she was a “perfect” mormon. Her family are so deeply mormon in the same way.
So instead of conceptualizing or asking a diplomatic answer or a answer for the non -mormon, since I realized that mormon speaks ver differently when they address to people not belonging to their faith I asked directly to her to answer as if she was still a mormon, easy to do for her.

Does Jesus needed to work His own salvation?
If she was answering to a mormon = Yes, since He came to the world like anybody else and showed the way, step by step. Even God the father did it, earned His godhood.
if she was answering to a non-mormon she would have not given this answer since as she is telling me in this moment you don’t give meat before milk for this reason you have a different answer. The answer in this case would have been = She would have explained the mormon plane of salvation.

Concerning Roman Catholic: The Catholic can have a part of truth since they use the Bible, they don’t have any power of God in order to baptize and so on, they don’t have any updating since they don’t have a living prophet and like all other Christians Churches they don’t belong to Christ and they are not recognized by The Father or The Son.
So it is difficult for them to affirm that are from the devil since they recognize a certain value and faith but nevertheless for them either you are of Jesus or you are from the devil, you don’t have a middle ground so you can make your analogie.

God the Father is definetely not the only God but the human being that through obbedience and work earned to become our world God. Other worlds has other Gods.

Luke 2:52, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.”
of course as a mormon she would have interpreted this in an “progression”.
Now in this affirmation she sees that: He became man so he accepted human condition so from little he had to become adult following the course of human nature. If not He would have walked since birth. And part of humanity is also a capacity of accepting or not accepting.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Originally Posted by ParkerD View Post
If you think it’s important, let me know and I can take a survey of 100 Latter-day Saints, or 200, and tell them a Catholic has asked “Did Christ need to be saved according to Latter-day Saints’ beliefs?” and ask their answer and there will be not one of them who responds “yes, Christ needed to be saved”.

Originally Posted by Darren10 View Post
For the first question, “did Jesus need salvation”? Strictly speaking, yes, He did (and this is from my understanding of Mormon doctrine).

Ha!

We’ll give you that one for free, Parker. Only 199 to go!

 

[ParkerD]

Ha!

We’ll give you that one for free, Parker. Only 199 to go!

Cradle2Grave,

He or she answered the more open ended question, and added comments to clarify what they meant.

The survey question would have been a different question, the question asked in the title of this thread. But what your comment has demonstrated is that such a survey would be a complete waste of my time, since it showed that meanings cannot be communicated fairly and honestly without a context.

The other comments showed that Latter-day Saints as compared with Catholics view the life of Christ, who is the divine Son of God and truly “God with us”, and His mission on earth, beginning with His birth and being laid in a manger up through His atonement and atoning sacrifice and resurrection, as well as His teachings and Intercessory prayer and the teachings of Luke and of Paul as I have cited as well as other teachings of Paul, in such a significantly different way, that there is a chasm of misunderstanding that cannot be bridged by trying to dialogue about this kind of topic.

Peace to you and all.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Cradle2Grave,

But what your comment has demonstrated is that such a survey would be a complete waste of my time, since it showed that meanings cannot be communicated fairly and honestly without a context.

What if we gave you another free one? Bruce McConkie - that’s one more LDS who thought Jesus worked out his own salvation. Now you only have 198 to go.

That’s two whole responses and you haven’t even had to do any work! Let’s do this, man!