Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?

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RebeccaJ said:
Certainly, when I was LDS, there was no room for viewing the teaching of Mormon prophets as incorrect. Really! I can’t fathom that the Mormon church no longer teaches that the words of its prophets are to be faithfully followed.
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What I find most shocking is the Mormon Church having to teach that the teaching of Joseph Smith are incorrect.
 
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

OMNIPRESENCE. Since Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father and God the Son are gloriously embodied persons, they do not believe them to be bodily omnipresent. They do affirm, rather, that their power is immanent “in all and through all things” and is the power “by which all things are governed” (D&C 88:6, 7, 13, 40-41). By their knowledge and power, and through the influence of the Holy Ghost, they are omnipresent.

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Omnipotent_God%3B_Omnipresence_of_God%3B_Omniscience_of_God
 
LivingWaters7 said:
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

OMNIPRESENCE. Since Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father and God the Son are gloriously embodied persons, they do not believe them to be bodily omnipresent. They do affirm, rather, that their power is immanent “in all and through all things” and is the power “by which all things are governed” (D&C 88:6, 7, 13, 40-41). By their knowledge and power, and through the influence of the Holy Ghost, they are omnipresent.

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Omnipotent_God%3B_Omnipresence_of_God%3B_Omniscience_of_God
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Sounds magical.
 
While the Holy Ghost is not omnipresent and God is not in himself omnipresent, he can be omnipresent through the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, it sounds magical.
 
jane_doe said:
Yes. I am also fallible, and still learning. To think otherwise is hubris.
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In relation to your statement on “infallible scripture”, I don’t believe anyone has said nor implied that Mormon Doctrine (or any other work) is considered to be “infallible”. What we do think is that it is a book written by a Mormon authority presumably to expound on “Mormon doctrine”, much like how you do on this forum. Therefore I fail to see how your response:

"And who said Mormon Doctrine was infallible scripture?"

to the statement:

"Mormon Doctrine says the Holy Ghost “can be in only one place at one time” which is not omnipresent either."

is responsive at all. Unless you are claiming that the quote from Mormon Doctrine is incorrect.
 
jane_doe said:
God is not sinning, God is perfect.
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Maybe, but so what, since you don’t care?
Hatikvah said:
… do you believe (individually or collectively, I’m not sure whether there is a consensus) that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to sin?
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jane_doe said:
Shrug Don’t know, don’t care. It’s of no consequence.
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I care. I cannot worship a so-called “god” that has sinned or even just has the “potential to sin.”
 
jane_doe said:
No, God has always existed.
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But of course he has! No one questions that, I hope. The question is, how did he exist in the past? Always as GOD, or only epocally recently as a God, or once upon a time as a mortal man in a physical body, or long ago as an amorphous submissive and undefinable “intelligence”? Catholics by and large believe God existed from the beginning of time, and Himself has always been “timeless”, not constrained by time, time itself being part of creation. God is the omnipotent power, so that He is not controlled by any “Priesthood authority” and He, whether in form or in essence or in potency, was not preceded by some supra-Divine “Priesthood”.
 
jane_doe said:
I’m not denying what was at that time and place, just also acknowledging that it was imperfect and at some times wrong. I can make the same argument for any other time/place/group if you’d like. The world and the Truth are MUCH bigger than any single time, any single place, or any single group.
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Sounds like there can never be assurance that a given Mormon doctrine is stable, eternal or absolute. Doctrines, or what Mormons believe are doctrines, change according to “time and place” and have been and thus probably are and ever will be “imperfect and at times wrong.” If the same can be said “for any other time/place/group” then it can be said for today, on Catholic Forums, by LDS. 😦
 
gazelam said:
The only point I’ll add to this thread is John 5:19 which states:

Jesus answered and said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.

This verse clearly offers the possibility of God the Father fulfilling a role as Savior in an earlier time living a sinless life among mortal beings, preaching truth, performing miracles, and atoning for their sins.
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No, that is you inserting text that is not there.

John 5:30: "The Father and I are one.”

Jesus is teaching in John 5 of the unity of the Father and Son and He reveals that the words and deeds of Jesus are the words and deeds of God.
 
Janderich said:
In a way I feel sorry for Catholics. You have been told that man had no beginning before conception and so have been cut off from the past. You have been told that God is inescapably different from man, fundamentally cutting off God from man. But further, you have been told what you cannot believe in the form of creeds, doctrines, and catechisms, and so you are mentally boxed in. It is as if you have been told, “Hither thou shalt come and no further.”
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How are Catholics cut off from the past in a way that Mormons are not? Do you remember much that happened to you before birth? Before even your spiritual existence? Do you actually pretend that you are not cut off from your life as an amorphous, indefinable, impotent “intelligence”? How do you know that there was not a stage even before “intelligence”, a pre-intelligence? How does knowing you were an unknowing “intelligence” who had not yet had any experiences to learn from and thus were very unintelligent, contribute one speck towards your salvation?

My wife is very different from myself, but we are not cut off from one another. My dog is even more different from me, but we are not cut off from one another. The sun is more different from me still, yet we are not cut off from one another. Please share your reasoning in concluding that two beings with only partially shared nature are “cut off” from one another. How are a people who recognize God, worship Him, receive guidance from him, blessings from Him, and salvation from him, “cut off” from him???
 
Tarquin said:
Before even your spiritual existence? Do you actually pretend that you are not cut off from your life as an amorphous, indefinable, impotent “intelligence”? How do you know that there was not a stage even before “intelligence”, a pre-intelligence?
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No, no, I thought that the “intelligence” was eternal, and it is in that very sense that God is eternal (though at the same time, He is a man). Correct me if I’m wrong, anyone.
 
Hatikvah said:
But there is no “beginning” in Mormonism that is how we think of it. They believe that matter and the universe is eternal. So they cannot have a beginning – sure, the world was created, but, following that line of logic, existence has always been sure (whether in this universe, or in a multiverse: that is a speculative topic).

So that would make God Himself finite because He had a beginning, and He would be subject to time and matter. There wouldn’t be an ulta-God as we see Him. Mormons see Him with omniscience and omnipotence, but we give Him more attributes.
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Good points, Hatikvah. However, I don’t think Mormons see God’s omniscience and omnipotence the same way that Christians do. For Mormons, God’s omniscience and omnipotence are “boxed in,” to borrow someone else’ phrase, by the realm in which he is allowed to act. He is supreme among his creations, but other Gods are supreme in theirs. (I realize many Mormons today reject the plurality of Gods, and that’s fine, but that rejection of polytheism is an innovation. It was not always so, and there are yet many Mormons who adhere to that belief with all their might.)
 
jane_doe said:
LDS also believe that God is omnipresent.
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jane_doe said:
Who said a physical body limits an all powerful being from being omnipresent? He’s all powerful.
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If you can ask that question and think it makes sense, you might not be unable to understand the answer. Since you admit to being fallible and still learning, I will explain Mormon teachings to you. God’s influence may be omnipresent - well, omnipresent within his region of the universe, not in regions lorded by other Gods - but his body, his Person, cannot be and is not “omnipresent.” To say that a finite form, such as a human or human-god body, is infinite (“omnipresent”), is a contradiction in terms, or in philosophy it would be called an “absurdity” (something that is extremely unreasonable).As LivingWaters7 said,
LivingWaters7 said:
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:**OMNIPRESENCE. Since Latter-day Saints believe that God the Father and God the Son are gloriously embodied persons, they do not **believe them to be bodily omnipresent. They do affirm, rather, that their power is immanent “in all and through all things” and is the power “by which all things are governed” (D&C 88:6, 7, 13, 40-41). By their knowledge and power, and through the influence of the Holy Ghost, they are omnipresent.

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Omnipotent_God%3B_Omnipresence_of_God%3B_Omniscience_of_God
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I hope this helps you understand Mormon doctrine better.
 
Janderich said:
In a way I feel sorry for Catholics. You have been told that man had no beginning before conception and so have been cut off from the past. You have been told that God is inescapably different from man, fundamentally cutting off God from man. But further, you have been told what you cannot believe in the form of creeds, doctrines, and catechisms, and so you are mentally boxed in. It is as if you have been told, “Hither thou shalt come and no further.”
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Sorry, this shows fundamental lack of understanding of who Jesus is.
 
Hatikvah said:
No, no, I thought that the “intelligence” was eternal, and it is in that very sense that God is eternal (though at the same time, He is a man). Correct me if I’m wrong, anyone.
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Yes, I suppose you are right, that is how Mormons probably see God’s “eternal” attribute.
Our physical bodies were created to house our spirits. Our spirits were created - the word “organized” is sometimes used - from that primordial “intelligence”. You are right, “intelligence” (whatever that is, in Mormon doctrine) is eternal. “Intelligence” is to spirit is to body, as water vapor is to water is to ice. They are three forms, so to speak, of the same thing. In that sense “intelligence” is eternal, but not always as intelligence. Sometimes as “intelligence,” sometimes as spirit, sometimes as body. One within the other, like Russian Matryoshka dolls. The whole is eternal, but evolving, either through creation, progeneration, or “organization”.
 
jane_doe said:
Who said a physical body limits an all powerful being from being omnipresent? He’s all powerful.
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To be all present is to be present all things. Your God has a physical flesh and bone body which can be seen, touched, smelt and tasted. He exists within the space his body resides like we do. Is the essence of God his body? I know Mormons believe in the Holy Spirit but the Spirit is not God. it is something different. If the Holy Spirit is omnipresent then the Holy Spirit possesses that property but God doesn’t.
 
jane_doe said:
Marie, it’s scripture that God has always existed. Obviously I cannot attest to what you heard/thought in the where/when you were LDS, but it **IS **official LDS scripture that God has always existed.
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*“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man… I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea… He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth.” - Joseph Smith [1835]

“He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through.” - Brigham Young [1870]

“But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of Gods, stretching back into the eternities.” - B.H. Roberts [1920]

“God is an exalted Man… The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on.” - Joseph Fielding Smith [1970]*
 
RebeccaJ said:
No, that is you inserting text that is not there.

John 5:30: "The Father and I are one.”

Jesus is teaching in John 5 of the unity of the Father and Son and He reveals that the words and deeds of Jesus are the words and deeds of God.
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Perhaps you are referring to John chapter 10. John 5:30 states: I cannot do anything on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me. (If the USCCB website can be believed… ;))
 
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