Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?

[Hatikvah]

All of what you describe here is very much in “we don’t know” territory. I would not make such claims, because such things are not known.

Okay, that’s a logical response to such a question – especially something as deep as the very nature of religious cosmology. As Socrates said, “I know that I know nothing.”

 

[jane_doe]

Okay, that’s a logical response to such a question – especially something as deep as the very nature of religious cosmology. As Socrates said, “I know that I know nothing.”

Such is wisdom!

 

[Tarquin]

No, it is not. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.
Again: Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.

You obviously cannot or are not willing to understand IgnatianPhilo ‘s meaning.

…One way he might have asked the question was, “If God is pure, is he pure only at certain times and for certain durations of his life? Or if God is pure, is he absolutely pure – meaning he was so pure he never had to have his sins wiped clean?” If he ever had to have his sins wiped clean, then maybe we would want to look for a different God, one more pure than he. If there are two Gods, for example, and one had his sins wiped clean, but the other had never sinned at all, are they equal in purity – in historical purity, in relative purity? Are they equally qualified to be promoted to Supreme Godship? It’s an interesting question, for which I suspect there is no clear Mormon teaching by an authority such as a prophet. …

Actually there is. It is right in scripture:
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your [not God’s (Tarquin)] sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy ] [not God’s (Tarquin)] transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our ] [not God’s (Tarquin)] transgressions from us.
D&C 58:42 Behold, he ] [not God (Tarquin)] who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
Romans 8:17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The first three and last of those are commonly quoted Christian passages. I have rarely heard them quoted by Mormons. That may be neither here nor there. (Or it might be relevant.) In any case, I fail to see how these five quotes have any bearing on the question at all! Did you read the question? These are the questions you say are answered “right in scripture”, but you have given no scripture answering them!

“If God is pure, is he pure only at certain times and for certain durations of his life?”

“Or if God is pure, is he absolutely pure – meaning he was so pure he never had to have his sins wiped clean?”

“If there are two Gods, for example, and one had his sins wiped clean, but the other had never sinned at all, are they equal in purity – in historical purity, in relative purity?”

The objects of the five passages you quote are unhelpful, as they are not addressing the nature of God’s purity, and they are not saying whether God is absolutely pure, or only pure under certain temporal conditions. Do you understand this? Do you understand that the one whose sinful nature, ability to be tempted, ability to sin, sin, and repentance is being discussed, is not that of mere Earthlings but of God Himself when he was not God but just a man?

I observed in regards to possible answers or elaborations on Mormon doctrine regarding God’s previous sojourn as an allegedly physical man on an unidentified planet, that “I suspect there is no clear Mormon teaching by an authority …” You have given no clear Mormon teaching by an authority, while the passages you have given do not even address the issue.

 

[Tarquin]

All of what you describe here is very much in “we don’t know” territory. I would not make such claims, because such things are not known.

Because we don’t know.

Then it is possible that God sinned. You do not know whether he did or not. It would also be possible that God has not completely repented. There is no scripture, and no reasoning that I have heard or read, explaining how God, having sinned (if he did, which we don’t know one way or the other) took any particular steps towards being “forgiven.” Since nothing is known about this, if in fact nothing is known about it (Catholic Theologians know, of course; but it is Mormons whom I am speaking about, who do not know) then God could conceivably still be in the process of undoing the harm he did when he sinned. (He may have been born in a nuclear age and somehow blown up an entire continent.) And he could conceivably still be in the process of repenting for those sins.

At Confession, a priest will sometimes give a penitent a task to perform over the duration of a certain period of time, like an hour, a day, a week. Given what has been said so far by Mormons about the possibility of God sinning when he was on his unidentified planet, I cannot see any reason why it may not be the case that God was given a certain penance to perform over the course of a year, a thousand years, or a million years; he might still be performing that penance. We don’t know, so perhaps it is possible that all his current work is only conditionally accepted. For him to be fully recognized as God, and to have his kingdoms embraced by the larger Collective of Kingdoms, he may first have to complete a task of repentance that he began eons ago. I don’t know. However silly this sounds, it is possible in the context of God’s ability to sin that has been presented, unless I have misunderstood or have not been informed of official Church documents saying otherwise.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Having your sins forgiven may mean wiped away “Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.”, but it doesn’t mean the damage done is wiped away. The consequences of sin damage everyone around the sinner in subtle and not so subtle ways, the betrayed still hurt and mistrust, the raped still suffer and fear, the bereft still mourn, the victims of gossip, theft, marginalization, still live with effects. I have trouble with the concept that “God” caused damage by action or inaction and needs a learning period to hone his “God” abilities.

 

[Tarquin]

Having your sins forgiven may mean wiped away “Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.”, but it doesn’t mean the damage done is wiped away. The consequences of sin damage everyone around the sinner in subtle and not so subtle ways, the betrayed still hurt and mistrust, the raped still suffer and fear, the bereft still mourn, the victims of gossip, theft, marginalization, still live with effects. I have trouble with the concept that “God” caused damage by action or inaction and needs a learning period to hone his “God” abilities.

Hello, Zaffiroborant. Have you read the posts leading up to the Clean = Clean Pure = Pure post? The issue by that time included the idea that God lived on another planet (not earth) before he was God, and that he was or probably was the Savior of that planet. It was asserted that on that planet God could be or was tempted, and could or may have or did sin!

What you are suggesting is exactly what I was thinking. If such a condition had actually existed. If God did live on another planet, not as Supreme Being, but as mortal, physical man requiring nurturing, toilet-training, chores, discipline, education, punishment and correction - and if he did sin in that context - might it be *possible *that the effect of his actions (sins?) would have long term ramifications. While his sins may have been “wiped away,” the fact remains, as you state, that “the victims … still live with the effects.” Unless God purges our minds and memories. But if he does that, did his God do that to him?

All this relates back to the original concern (or one of them) - can God truly have been less than God, and still qualify as God, with the normally assigned qualities of absolute goodness, absolute perfection (complete in himself and never having needed to complete some aspect of his character in order to be God), and absolutely trustworthy and omnipresent. (There was probably more, but this is it in a curelom-shell.)

 

[jane_doe]

(Jane re-ordering your post to make her reply flow better) (All note: I’m going to talk about repented of sins in the post)

The objects of the five passages you quote are unhelpful, as they are not addressing the nature of God’s purity, and they are not saying whether God is absolutely pure, or only pure under certain temporal conditions.

They address ALL sin.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
- Relevance: ALL sin is washed away, that which was scarlet is made white as snow.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
- Relevance: ALL sin is blotted out and not remembered.

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
- Relevance: ALL sin removed from us, as far east is from the west.

D&C 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
- Relevance: ALL sin remembered no more.

Romans 8:17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
- Relevance: ALL children (even those that sin) are joint heirs with Christ and glorified together.

I fail to see how these five quotes have any bearing on the question at all! Did you read the question? These are the questions you say are answered “right in scripture”, but you have given no scripture answering them!

It seems you do not understand the sheer power of the atonement.

ALL sin that is repented of is washed clean. It no longer matters. It is no longer remembered. At the day of judgement and beyond, a repentant drug-trafficking scum-bag stands 100% clean and pure: his sins are wiped clean, they no longer matter, they are no longer remembered- he is 100% clean and pure and stands as a joint heir with Christ Himself.

“If there are two Gods, for example, and one had his sins wiped clean, but the other had never sinned at all, are they equal in purity – in historical purity, in relative purity?”

“Or if God is pure, is he absolutely pure – meaning he was so pure he never had to have his sins wiped clean?”

There is no “historical purity” or “relative purity”, the past does not matter. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

Why do you keep trying to remember what God Himself says He will not?

Do you understand this? Do you understand that the one whose sinful nature, ability to be tempted, ability to sin, sin, and repentance is being discussed, is not that of mere Earthlings but of God Himself when he was not God but just a man?

Again, you seemingly do not understand the power of the atonement, in which even a sinful nature is removed. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

 

[Horton]

(Jane re-ordering your post to make her reply flow better) (All note: I’m going to talk about repented of sins in the post)

It seems you do not understand the sheer power of the atonement.

ALL sin that is repented of is washed clean. It no longer matters. It is no longer remembered. At the day of judgement and beyond, a repentant drug-trafficking scum-bag stands 100% clean and pure: his sins are wiped clean, they no longer matter, they are no longer remembered- he is 100% clean and pure and stands as a joint heir with Christ Himself.

Again, you seemingly do not understand the power of the atonement, in which even a sinful nature is removed. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

Atonement - noun satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.

What exactly does one have to do to atone for their sins? For the LDS. You keep coming back to this but you’re not answering the question.

As Catholics we know the power of reconciliation. We confess our sins to the priest, (in persona Christi), are given absolution, and encouraged to sin no more. We reconcile ourselves back with God’s love and His Church. Most of us will require a period of purgation after death before going to heaven so the whole “clean” & “pure” concept is not something we delve into much. We know we will be come clean & pure in purgatory.

I think the LDS concept of sin is much different that the Christian concept. If the LDS believe they can be sinless on earth…for me, I find that ludicrous. We have fallen natures and we will sin. We also have a God of love & mercy who is ready to hear our confessions and give us absolution for our sins.

 

[RebeccaJ]

(Jane re-ordering your post to make her reply flow better) (All note: I’m going to talk about repented of sins in the post)

They address ALL sin.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
- Relevance: ALL sin is washed away, that which was scarlet is made white as snow.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
- Relevance: ALL sin is blotted out and not remembered.

Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
- Relevance: ALL sin removed from us, as far east is from the west.

D&C 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
- Relevance: ALL sin remembered no more.

Romans 8:17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
- Relevance: ALL children (even those that sin) are joint heirs with Christ and glorified together.

It seems you do not understand the sheer power of the atonement.

ALL sin that is repented of is washed clean. It no longer matters. It is no longer remembered. At the day of judgement and beyond, a repentant drug-trafficking scum-bag stands 100% clean and pure: his sins are wiped clean, they no longer matter, they are no longer remembered- he is 100% clean and pure and stands as a joint heir with Christ Himself.

There is no “historical purity” or “relative purity”, the past does not matter. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

Why do you keep trying to remember what God Himself says He will not?

Again, you seemingly do not understand the power of the atonement, in which even a sinful nature is removed. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

Sin and grace are central doctrines of Christianity. I think we’ve considered over a couple of millenia the meaning of both.

However, sin is what humans do, grace is what God does. For Christians, the concept of God the Father requiring grace from outside Himself, makes God, not God. You dance around the concept of God requiring grace with I-don’t-knows, while simultaneously trying to use scripture to show that God had access to grace for Himself. The problem is that the concept of God requiring grace, exists at all in Mormonism.

 

[Tarquin]

(Jane re-ordering your post to make her reply flow better) (All note: I’m going to talk about repented of sins in the post)

Tarquin: “The objects of the five passages you quote are unhelpful, as they are not addressing the nature of God’s purity, and they are not saying whether God is absolutely pure, or only pure under certain temporal conditions”

They address ALL sin.

(I will continue addressing the topic of the thread: “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”)

I urge you to talk to your Bishop, Stake President, or whoever else you can get to explain these issues to you. We have been talking about God’s life before he became a God who bore “spirit children”. I surely cannot imagine any knowledgeable authority in the Church telling you that the Scriptures we have on this world about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, are retroactively applied to previous worlds that existed before God became God. Please try to understand that the topic of this thread is not “Us” as in “Did we sin or have the potential to sin”, but “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” You cannot seriously believe the words of Isaiah, given thousands of years after God “organized” this world, were available to people millions of years before Isaiah was born on this earth, and millions of years before Isaiah was even born as a “spirit”!

You mistakenly apply our Scriptures to a civilization that allegedly existed before even Genesis applied. But our Scriptures are for us, not some pre-Adamic civilization. As Moses 1:35 says, “only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you….” * And as one of your prophets said, “this earth and all that thereon is are our concern. It is the truths about ‘our creation … that will chart the course for us in our enduring efforts to gain eternal life.”* God gave us our scriptures as an account “only … of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof.” They are not an account of any other earth, including the “earth” that God was on as a physical man.

*(1) Jane_Doe: “Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

• Relevance: ALL sin is washed away, that which was scarlet is made white as snow.”*

Okay, let’s reason then. Either this applies to God or it does not. I say it does not, because God is not schizophrenic. He is not speaking to Himself. He is speaking to His children. Do you agree or disagree?Do you think God is speaking to people who are not His children?? If He is speaking to His children, He is not speaking to himself. Do you believe God is speaking to himself in this verse?

You say it does apply to God. You say this verse means that before the verse was given, God knew it on his planet. That actually supports an alternative I had suggested. **For if this verse applies to God, it is telling God that even though His sins “be as scarlet” and “red like crimson”, they will be “as white as snow”, or as you say, “[His] sin is washed away.” **Is that what you believe? – That this verse applies to ALL sin, including God’s? That God’s sins will be washed away?

*(2) Jane_Doe: “Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

• Relevance: ALL sin is blotted out and not remembered.”*
  (“Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”)
  (Jane_Doe: “[These verses] address ALL sin.”)
  Jane_Doe, that is certainly some power God has, to blot out His own sins and not remember them! If He can do that, why can’t everyone?

Did you ever stop to think that “not remembered” is not a literal promise? Do you have children? If so, have you never said something like this to them: “Okay, you pick up your room and I’ll forget this ever happened.” – Did you really forget simply because you said you would? Or did you continue remember it immediately after they did the thing you said if they did, you’d forget? Is it possible that “not remembered” means, “will not apply the punishment that such behavior normally entails”, will not hold accountable?

*(3) Jane_Doe: “Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our not His] transgressions from us not from Him].

• Relevance: ALL sin removed from us, as far east is from the west.”*

Yes, but the topic is not about us. It’s about God. Do you understand the difference between pronouns “our,” “us,” “His,” “Him”?

*(4) Jane_Doe: “D&C 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

• Relevance: ALL sin remembered no more.”*

So then you are saying this applies to God? You are saying God does not remember His sins any more because He “has repented of His sins,” therefore “the same is forgiven”??

*(5) Jane_Doe: “Romans 8:17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

• Relevance: ALL children (even those that sin) are joint heirs with Christ and glorified together.”*
  (“Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”)
  (Jane_Doe: “They address ALL sin.”)

So, then, you believe a good answer to the question on whether God the Father has sinned is that He is one of the “heirs of God”? You are saying that He is his own heir!?

 

[Tarquin]

Tarquin: “I fail to see how these five quotes have any bearing on the question at all! Did you read the question? These are the questions you say are answered “right in scripture”, but you have given no scripture answering them! ”

It seems you do not understand the sheer power of the atonement.

Obviously not, if what you are saying is that the atonement of Jesus Christ washed away the sins of God the Father, and all the Forefathers before Him!

ALL sin that is repented of is washed clean. It no longer matters. It is no longer remembered. At the day of judgement and beyond, a repentant drug-trafficking scum-bag stands 100% clean and pure: his sins are wiped clean, they no longer matter, they are no longer remembered- he is 100% clean and pure and stands as a joint heir with Christ Himself.

So, then, is this what you are saying in answer to the question “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” - “It no longer matters” that God the Father sinned, because God the Father’s sin “is washed clean” because he “repented” and therefore “it is no longer remembered.” And “at the day of judgment and beyond” God’s “sins are wiped clean”, “at the day of judgement” as you say, “he is 100% clean and pure and stands as a joint heir with Christ Himself”? Okay, I can accept you believe that, although it is 100% contrary to the official teachings of the Mormon Church today.

Jane_Doe, if the memory is wiped clean, will you then forget Jesus and the sacrifice he made to cleanse you of your sins? As IgnatianPhilo said,

Yes Sin has been forgiven in Christ. That’s the thing, the sin has been forgiven and perhaps we have even grown past it but the ultimate reality is that it was once there and something from which we needed saving. Can heavenly Father then forget his salvation at the hands of his heavenly Father and simply say I’m not a sinner anymore? I never needed saving? I am perfect? No, he would always have to remember his debt to his heavenly Father, that he is imperfect. Unlike his son Jesus who is perfect.

It is terribly ungrateful to forget the great sacrificies made by others on our behalf.

 

[Tarquin]

Tarquin: “If there are two Gods, for example, and one had his sins wiped clean, but the other had never sinned at all, are they equal in purity – in historical purity, in relative purity? ”
Tarquin: “Or if God is pure, is he absolutely pure – meaning he was so pure he never had to have his sins wiped clean? ”

There is no “historical purity” or “relative purity”, the past does not matter. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

As noted above, It might be that you do not understand the scriptures being referred to, or you are not familiar with some of the historical, theological teachings of the prophets of the Mormon Church that are being alluded to. For example,

The Gods who dwell in the Heaven from which our spirits came, are beings who have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state. Their terrestrial world was redeemed, and glorified, and made a Heaven: their terrestrial bodies, after suffering death, were redeemed, and glorified, and made Gods. And thus, as their world was exalted from a temporal to an eternal state, they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.

Brigham Young said, “Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fulness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof….”

In light of what these Mormon leaders have clearly taught on the issue, about God having lived a mortal existence, been redeemed and exalted by the grace of someone more exalted than he, how would you answer IgnatianPhilo’s question, “Can heavenly Father then forget his salvation at the hands of his heavenly Father and simply say I’m not a sinner anymore? I never needed saving? I am perfect? No, he would always have to remember his debt to his heavenly Father, that he is imperfect. Unlike his son Jesus who is perfect.”

Why do you keep trying to remember what God Himself says He will not?

I’m remembering what Mormons have told me and what I have read in Mormon doctrinal books. It’s not my fault if the Mormon Church keeps reminding people of what God Himself says He will not remind them. If it is wrong to “remember” these claims by Mormons about God’s sins, why do you keep trying to answer questions about them?

Tarquin: “Do you understand this? Do you understand that the one whose sinful nature, ability to be tempted, ability to sin, sin, and repentance is being discussed, is not that of mere Earthlings but of God Himself when he was not God but just a man?”

Again, you seemingly do not understand the power of the atonement, in which even a sinful nature is removed. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure.

I take it, then, your answer is “No.”

I’m asking this in light of the traditional Mormon doctrine of eternal progression, but do you believe (individually or collectively, I’m not sure whether there is a consensus) that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to sin?

Shrug Don’t know, don’t care. It’s of no consequence.

You obviously care about this topic very much.

 

[Janderich]

Having your sins forgiven may mean wiped away “Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.”, but it doesn’t mean the damage done is wiped away. The consequences of sin damage everyone around the sinner in subtle and not so subtle ways, the betrayed still hurt and mistrust, the raped still suffer and fear, the bereft still mourn, the victims of gossip, theft, marginalization, still live with effects. I have trouble with the concept that “God” caused damage by action or inaction and needs a learning period to hone his “God” abilities.

What you are suggesting is exactly what I was thinking. If such a condition had actually existed. If God did live on another planet, not as Supreme Being, but as mortal, physical man requiring nurturing, toilet-training, chores, discipline, education, punishment and correction - and if he did sin in that context - might it be *possible *that the effect of his actions (sins?) would have long term ramifications. While his sins may have been “wiped away,” the fact remains, as you state, that “the victims … still live with the effects.” Unless God purges our minds and memories. But if he does that, did his God do that to him.

The effects of sin after this life on another are a different angle to this thread. Let me comment on how I see it.

We need to recognize that pain and anguish caused by others will not remain with the righteous after the resurrection. John says, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Rev 20:4). All our tears cannot be wiped away unless our sorrows have an end. Not only will we find happiness in the world to come but all our previous difficulties will be seen for what they are, learning experiences, and will no more weigh us down in spirit. Therefore, only for the wicked will suffering continue. But the suffering they carry with them after the resurrection, will be self inflicted.

Nothing anyone does can negatively effect us unless we allow it to do so by not letting it go. Evidence for this can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, wherein Jesus himself says, “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged, and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (Matt 7:1-2). Another translations puts his words this way, "For God will judge you as you judge others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. (NLT). If we forgive others we will be forgiven. Only if we hold on to the hurt and continue to cast judgement on another will we find ourselves trapped in a prison of our own making.

So, if God lived on a different earth, and if he sinned in some prior eternal realm, he did not inflict endless suffering. The suffering he caused, if any, was only temporary. Eternal suffering is only self inflicted.

 

[jane_doe]

Obviously not, if what you are saying is that the atonement of Jesus Christ washed away the sins of God the Father, and all the Forefathers before Him!

No, no, no, no. You posts 168-170 show a complete misunderstanding everything I said.

Deep breath Let’s (re)start again, super basic to reduce any confusion. A person who repents stands at the final day before God 100% blameless, 100% without blemish, 100% pure, 100% perfect, 100% a co-heir with Christ. Do you or do you not understand that?

(We must establish a basic understanding before moving on to more advance topics)

 

[zaffiroborant]

The effects of sin after this life on another are a different angle to this thread. Let me comment on how I see it.

We need to recognize that pain and anguish caused by others will not remain with the righteous after the resurrection. John says, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Rev 20:4). All our tears cannot be wiped away unless our sorrows have an end. Not only will we find happiness in the world to come but all our previous difficulties will be seen for what they are, learning experiences, and will no more weigh us down in spirit. Therefore, only for the wicked will suffering continue. But the suffering they carry with them after the resurrection, will be self inflicted.

Nothing anyone does can negatively effect us unless we allow it to do so by not letting it go. Evidence for this can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, wherein Jesus himself says, “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged, and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (Matt 7:1-2). Another translations puts his words this way, "For God will judge you as you judge others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. (NLT). If we forgive others we will be forgiven. Only if we hold on to the hurt and continue to cast judgement on another will we find ourselves trapped in a prison of our own making.

So, if God lived on a different earth, and if he sinned in some prior eternal realm, he did not inflict endless suffering. The suffering he caused, if any, was only temporary. Eternal suffering is only self inflicted.

Stupid fearful, mistrusting victims of sexual abuse, rape, adultery, assault, theft it’s their own fault they are frightened and mistrustful.

 

[Janderich]

Stupid fearful, mistrusting victims of sexual abuse, rape, adultery, assault, theft it’s their own fault they are frightened and mistrustful.

In our limited state here on earth, such a response is only normal. I do not label such people as stupid or mistrusting. But after the resurrection all sorrow, fear, anger, hatred, can be wiped away. Do you believe the atonement can completely heal a victim of abuse? Do you believe it can take what was broken and make it whole again? If you do not then I say that you believe in a partial God. A God who allows our unequal experiences here to harm us for all eternity.

 

[Tarquin]

No, no, no, no. You posts 168-170 show a complete misunderstanding everything I said.

In response to the question,* “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”*, you offered several passages from things that were written on this world, after God had left “His world”. If you want to apply them only to this world, okay. In that case you may be wasting your time. I don’t think anyone hear doubts the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice or the grace of forgiveness by the Father. I suppose that would belong in a thread discussing repentance and forgiveness – of our sins. In contrast, this thread is about repentance and forgiveness of God for ]U]His sins. The title of the thread is not “Mormons: Do you believe that you sinned, or had the potential to?”, but “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” What is your answer? You answer by saying sinners can be forgiven. That is tantamount to answering in the affirmative.

Let’s (re)start again,

As many times as you wish.
Please remember the topic: * “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”*

super basic to reduce any confusion.

I see no sign that your confusing “our sins” with “God’s sins” has been resolved.

A person who repents stands at the final day before God 100% blameless, 100% without blemish, 100% pure, 100% perfect, 100% a co-heir with Christ. Do you or do you not understand that?

I do understand. You are saying that a person such as God the Father, if He (God the Father) has repented of His sins (sins committed by God the Father), stands at the final day before God (God the Father stands before Himself, God the Father), and is a co-heir with Christ - although I think Christians normally believe Christ is the heir, by virtue of his relation with the Father, rather than that God the Father is a co-heir through Christ. That’s an interestingly novel take on soteriology that I have not thought about before.

(We must establish a basic understanding before moving on to more advance topics)

As this thread is not about our sins on this earth 2016 years after the life of Jesus Christ, but about “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”, millions of years before Jesus was even born; then your answer means that God, repenting, “stands at the final day before God … a co-heir without Christ”.

I’ve never read a clear distinction made by a Mormon between “basic” and “advance”. If you feel this topic - “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” - is too advanced, I am sorry. I read quite a bit on theology and comparative religion on many levels, so I don’t have a problem with it. Besides, I believe the distinction you seem to be trying to make between basic issues of sin and advanced issues of sin is not valid.

 

[Tarquin]

Nothing anyone does can negatively effect us unless we allow it to do so by not letting it go. Evidence for this can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, wherein Jesus himself says, “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged, and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (Matt 7:1-2). Another translations puts his words this way, "For God will judge you as you judge others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. (NLT). If we forgive others we will be forgiven. Only if we hold on to the hurt and continue to cast judgement on another will we find ourselves trapped in a prison of our own making.

Are we always to forgive? Does God always forgive? (Matthew 12:31-32; Luke 12:10, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit “will not be forgiven”)
He said to the judges, "Consider what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for the Lord who is with you when you render judgment. Now then let the fear of the Lord be upon you, be very careful what you do, for the Lord our God will have no part in unrighteousness, or partiality or the taking of a bribe.” 2 Chronicles 19:6-7
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” John 7:24We must judge. We are called to judge. And we can neither protect our families nor our societies if we do not judge. Some people really are guilty. Surely God was talking about harsh, or selfishly motivated, or unrighteous judging only, not all instances of - estimating the value of a person’s actions and attempting to determine their motives.

So, if God lived on a different earth, and if he sinned in some prior eternal realm, he did not inflict endless suffering. The suffering he caused, if any, was only temporary. Eternal suffering is only self inflicted.

So, then, you answer in the affirmative? It is possible that God sinned?

 

[Horton]

No, no, no, no. You posts 168-170 show a complete misunderstanding everything I said.

Deep breath Let’s (re)start again, super basic to reduce any confusion. A person who repents stands at the final day before God 100% blameless, 100% without blemish, 100% pure, 100% perfect, 100% a co-heir with Christ. Do you or do you not understand that?

(We must establish a basic understanding before moving on to more advance topics)

I don’t think it’s “we” who must establish a basic understanding before moving on to more advance topics. Maybe it’s just you. Your posts on this thread clearly indicate a lack of understanding of the OP question. We are not talking about what happens when “we” sin. Deep breath Catholics have a better understanding of sin and redemption than probably any other faith tradition. After all we belong to the Church Christ started after His Passion.

To (re)start - **Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?
**

 

[Tarquin]

Due to a couple of typographical errors, only one serious, I am reposting this with correction.

No, no, no, no. You posts 168-170 show a complete misunderstanding everything I said.

In response to the question,* “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”*, you offered several passages from things that were written on this world, after God had left “His world”. If you want to apply them only to this world, okay. In that case you may be wasting your time. I don’t think anyone hear doubts the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice or the grace of forgiveness by the Father. I suppose that would belong in a thread discussing repentance and forgiveness – of our sins. In contrast, this thread is about repentance and forgiveness of God for His sins. The title of the thread is not “Mormons: Do you believe that you sinned, or had the potential to?”, but “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” What is your answer? You answer by saying sinners can be forgiven. That is tantamount to answering in the affirmative.

Let’s (re)start again,

As many times as you wish.
Please remember the topic: * “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”*

super basic to reduce any confusion.

I see no sign that your confusing “our sins” with “God’s sins” has been resolved.

A person who repents stands at the final day before God 100% blameless, 100% without blemish, 100% pure, 100% perfect, 100% a co-heir with Christ. Do you or do you not understand that?

I do understand. You are saying that a person such as God the Father, if He (God the Father) has repented of His sins (sins committed by God the Father), stands at the final day before God (God the Father stands before Himself, God the Father), and is a co-heir with Christ - although I think Christians normally believe Christ is the heir, by virtue of his relation with the Father, rather than that God the Father is a co-heir through Christ. That’s an interestingly novel take on soteriology that I have not thought about before.

(We must establish a basic understanding before moving on to more advance topics)

As this thread is not about our sins on this earth 2016 years after the life of Jesus Christ, but about “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?”, millions of years before Jesus was even born; then your answer means that God, repenting, “stands at the final day before God … a co-heir with (or through) Christ”.

I’ve never read a clear distinction made by a Mormon between “basic” and “advance”. If you feel this topic - “Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?” - is too advanced, I am sorry. I do read quite a bit on theology and comparative religion on many levels, so I don’t have a problem with it. Besides, I believe the distinction you seem to be trying to make between basic issues of sin and advanced issues of sin is not valid.